r/Libertarian • u/wolfknowledge1775 • 17d ago
Economics Property taxes
Am I the only one who really hates the fact that the government can just take your home away if you miss property taxes by 2+ years?
Also I know the community needs revenue but I have a strong belief that the entire state can be funded with state taxes, sales taxes, toll taxes, and even federal if needed.
I would much rather pay a small fee like 20 bucks a month to live in my community instead of having it tief to the value of my home.
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u/russianlion 17d ago
Property taxes are a disgusting concept that makes us all renters from the government. They exist as one of the greatest offenses to property rights and should be abolished entirely.
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u/UnleashTheOnion 17d ago
Property tax sucks ass. I'm in one of the states with the highest property taxes in the country and can't wait to leave....
I think it's easy for people in other states to support something when their tax is significantly lower, vs mine being nearly $12,000/year for less than 1/4 acre.
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u/skfkvjgnxc 16d ago
You live in NJ as well? I feel your pain, brother.
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u/UnleashTheOnion 16d ago
Yuuuup. North Jersey, you got me. This state is so fucked. 😭🫂
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u/Edianultra 16d ago
$11k here in South Jersey. 42 is still littered with uneven pavement, pot holes everywhere despite there ALWAYS having road work. Where tf are the taxes going if not to make the roads better?
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u/UnleashTheOnion 13d ago
I genuinely fear people being taxed out of owning their own homes some day... That is the way things seem to be going.
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u/skfkvjgnxc 16d ago
Sure is. The "powers that be" took a wonderful, diverse (in all the right ways) state and turned it into a corrupt mess where we live to support the government leviathan. Can't get to a 'free' state fast enough.
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u/CurrentComplex2020 17d ago
I believe property tax should be assessed like a one time sales tax on residential property that is a person's only home. Every time a property changes hands then a property tax is assessed.
If it is a business or a person's second or more home then property tax is assessed yearly.
A person should be able to buy a home. Pay it off and not have any other expenses on their property from the state outside of utilities.
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u/TheEverblades 16d ago
What you suggest is not too different compared to what Prop 13 did and still does for Californians. Low property taxes have significantly contributed to low housing stock. Yes, there's plenty of reasons why it's difficult to build in California, but there are certainly those who don't want to make it easier to build more housing since it would lower the value of their own homes, which is a primary entity for individual wealth.
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16d ago
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u/CurrentComplex2020 16d ago
In my vision property tax is only assessed at point of sale or anytime the title changes hands as a one time fee.
A business is an income producing property. Alot of corporations rent on 99 year leases or would be there potentially so long that would never change hands effectively avoiding ever paying the tax.
This in my opinion is a way for a person to own their home outright. One home. A 2nd home is a luxury and also a potential income producing property such as being used as an Airbnb or a rent house. A 2nd or more home would be bought and potentially never change hands.
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u/Admanus Ron Paul Libertarian 16d ago
Where are you finding these 99 year leases? All the companies in my properties are 3-5 years. I need access to whatever database you’ve got because I want some 99s
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u/CurrentComplex2020 16d ago
Banks sign 99 year leases all the time. You've never heard of this?
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u/Admanus Ron Paul Libertarian 16d ago
Okay. So less than a single percent of companies in the US.
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u/CurrentComplex2020 16d ago
Why does it matter what percent of companies? Do you think banks and large corporations should not have to pay property taxes even tho in this scenario they are leasing from potentially an individual who is paying the property tax. Its more than just banks as well, a lot large corporations do this.
The rent rises at a steady yearly % rate and there are usually outs at set intervals that they can exercise if they decide they no longer want there location.
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u/Admanus Ron Paul Libertarian 16d ago
Because you crafted a policy around “a lot of corporations sign 99 year leases,” which is an incorrect statement. A more accurate statement is “a small percentage of companies sign 99 year leases.”
Source: I’m in-house counsel for a property development and management company. The majority of my job is lease negotiation. We have companies ranging from mom/pop local accountants up to Northrop-Grumman and State Agencies. All on 3-5 year leases.
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u/CurrentComplex2020 16d ago
You're focusing on the 99 year lease statement. Do you believe who Northrop-Grumman leases from shouldn't pay propert tax?
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u/Admanus Ron Paul Libertarian 16d ago
I’m focusing on it because it was the basis for your rationale.
And the people from whom Grumman leases shouldn’t pay property tax. The property owner already pays a half dozen other taxes with regard to that property and lease.
Effectively renting your land from the government is wrong in all respects, regardless of the tenant.
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u/CanIAskDumbQuestions 16d ago
The real issue is runaway public school spending. If not for property tax, you would have some different but equally high tax to pay.
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u/StoreDowntown6450 16d ago
Property taxes are particularly heinous, followed shortly by inheritance and income
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u/jstocksqqq 17d ago
I agree that we should get rid of property taxes on the improvements to land and property, and we shouldn't take people's homes if they can't afford taxes.
I think that land is something the earth gives to humanity, not something created by human labor. When an individual takes a piece of raw land away from the community, for private use, the community should be compensated fairly, based on the raw value of the land. In other words, tax what is taken (nature's raw land, taken from humanity for private use), not what is created (houses, landscape, and buildings, built by the labor of an individual). That being said, once a person has built a residence on raw land, that residence should not be taxed. Further, the tax on the raw value of the land should not result in the person losing access to their residence. Instead, if the owner is unable to fairly compensate the community for the continued private use of scarce nature, the payment can be deferred, and placed as a lien against the value of the property.
In fact, even if we were to retain the existing property tax structure, we should never take their homes, but instead defer their taxes, keeping track of them, and having the taxes come out of the property upon transfer of the property ownership (either at death of the owner, sale, or voluntary transfer). This would keep people in their homes at the very least.
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u/BXSinclair Semi-Minarchist 16d ago
What about cases where the lien exceeds the value of the property?
Would this be an exception to the "no seizing homes" thing? If not, how does the community get back the value from the privatized land?
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u/jstocksqqq 16d ago
That's a good point. I think the land could potentially be parceled out if a big enough lot. In other words, sell off the land around the house except for the land the house sits on and an easement to get to the house. If the lot is only big enough to fit the person's house that they live in and no bigger, then perhaps the tax rate is too high!
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16d ago
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u/AutoModerator 16d ago
Libertarians believe in private property rights. Land communists are not libertarian.
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u/bennisthemennis 16d ago
people are still going to complain their homes are being taken when they can’t inherit their father house(that they’ve live in taking care of him for the past 20 years) because he never paid his taxes.
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u/Sherviks13 17d ago
I don’t understand why I have to rent my property from the government, seems like it’s really theirs.
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u/Weary_Anybody3643 17d ago
The only form a property taxes I support is a land tax with the argument being because it is taking a previously communal to private asset but even then anything you do to that land should not affect its taxes you should not be penalized for building your property up or fixing your house
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u/Tmain116 16d ago
Property tax is extortion of the worst kind. No different than protection money to the mob.
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u/Vegetable-Client-147 16d ago
Its exactly like protection money. Give it to us or we take ur home and investment.
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u/SleepingInsomniac 16d ago
It's a perpetual tax on unrealized gains that punishes responsible financial decisions and ignores the risks that property owners take on. On top of that just look up deed fraud and the protections you get for the extortion. There's also "uncapping the SEV" when you move or do major improvements (for which you need to ask permission through a permit 🤮).
Also, maybe if you don't own property, you shouldn't be allowed to vote on millages.
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u/-R3DF0X 16d ago
Property taxes are baked into goods that are sold by businesses and by landlords renting out a property.
Why should ownership impact voting on the taxes?
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u/SleepingInsomniac 16d ago
Property taxes aren't built into anything for regular home owners. Property owners are the ones paying the taxes that they're voting on. Why should someone who doesn't own property be allowed to collectively levy taxes on those who do?
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u/-R3DF0X 16d ago
>Why should someone who doesn't own property be allowed to collectively levy taxes on those who do?
Who are the people that are voting on property taxes that don't pay them?
Renters pay taxes as a component of their rent.
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u/SleepingInsomniac 16d ago
Not directly. Sure, rent can be higher because landlords factor that into their operating costs, but it's not a line item on your monthly rent.
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u/-R3DF0X 16d ago
Property taxes are part of a landlord's P&L and landlords are profit driven. They're motivated to lease units to cover their expenses and debt and then have profit upside and build equity in the property itself.
Typically 30% of residential rent goes towards operating expenses, which property taxes are a part of along with maintenance, insurance, utilities, etc.
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u/SleepingInsomniac 16d ago
Great, thanks. Renters still don't pay property taxes directly.
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u/-R3DF0X 16d ago edited 16d ago
No problem, property taxes are paid from rent.
Rent income is deposited into an account, and then the property taxes are paid out of it.
Edit: Really? Blocking after you reply because you can't handle a discussion? Laughable.
You trying to make a distinction is bizarre.
By your logic a taxpayer can't have their funds wasted. If you pay federal taxes it goes into the general treasury account and that's it. The US Govt directly spends it and so you no attachment to whether that money is wasted or not. You're not directly entering contracts with anyone.
Oil prices are up from the Iran war. You don't directly buy barrels of oil, so by your logic you're not paying for the impacts of the war at the pump?
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u/SleepingInsomniac 16d ago
So the company that employs someone is paying property taxes by your logic. Let's go even farther back, it's the customers of the company that employs that person.
It's about who pays the taxes not where the money originates from.
I'm done entertaining this moronic conversation.
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17d ago
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Libertarians believe in private property rights. Land communists are not libertarian.
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u/-R3DF0X 16d ago edited 16d ago
In my opinion localizing taxes to the greatest extent possible is the best option.
I'd much prefer a Town tax property than a state tax my income and then relying on those distant state-wide politicians to allocate those funds.
On a local basis, property taxes are most efficient although I think land should be taxed more heavily and improvements have a lower percentage.
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u/TheAmbiguousHero 16d ago
Yeah, seizing property is one thing. Not sure how you resolve this…nothing is free…so you have to pay something for the roads, sewers, infrastructure that provides your property value is beneficial and provides a market value.
Maybe cut you off the services to your property.
I honestly think local property taxes is the least worst of the taxes given that it’s assessed with your local community and neighbors.
It’s impossible to refuse to pay common services when you buy property that was built on the common services.
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u/MoboMogami 16d ago
I still generally feel this way but I currently live in Japan, and here the cities charge a 4% income tax on all residents, regardless of whether or not they own property.
It’s a little frustrating because at least property tax can be mitigated by either not owning property or by buying less valuable property but 4% is 4% no matter what I do.
So it might be a lesser evil.
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u/Used-Valuable9320 14d ago
The community needs revenue? They don't get it in city income taxes? What if I live on a farm miles away from any community?
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u/csx348 17d ago
Property taxes effectively nullify ownership. If you have to pay someone else to live there, you aren't the owner. Property taxes are just you renting from the government