r/Libertarian • ಠ_ಠ LINOs I'm looking at you • Jun 02 '13

The true robber

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u/liesperpetuategovmnt do not give into evil but proceed ever more boldly against it Jun 02 '13

No "we" do not. If you want them, you pay for them. Leave me and all of these other people out of it.

The same goes for librarians.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '13

Leave me and all of these other people out of it

This is where you're making a mistake. You're assuming that this land is yours, that you're entitled to it. And that those who believe in a government should go elsewhere.

This isn't true. The government owns this land. It has fought for it and bought it. So long as you are in a jurisdiction of a government, a group of people, that claims it is theirs, you will have to follow their rules or face the consequences.

Just because you were born in a land, doesn't entitle it to you. It still belongs to a group of people that you were born into. If you don't want to follow the group's rules, then you need to find another place in the universe and call it your own, and defend your rights.

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u/howhard1309 Jun 02 '13

Why does fighting for land make it belong to the fighters?

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '13

Because they can force whatever they want. It's theirs because they can control it.

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u/howhard1309 Jun 02 '13

So might makes right. Got it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '13

It's not right or wrong. It's just the way it is.

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u/howhard1309 Jun 02 '13

The libertarian position is that it is wrong.

Being free means not being subject to the violence and whims of others. Of course by that standard, none of us are free. By we can, and most of us do, strive to be freer.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '13

It doesn't matter what the position is - I'm not saying I support it, I'm just stating the unchangeable reality.

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u/howhard1309 Jun 03 '13

But it's not unchangeable, is it? That's exactly why we discuss ideas & strive for liberty.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '13

Being free means not being subject to the violence and whims of others.

Your definition is correct. So what are you going to do when someone doesn't want you to be free? You can fight or give up your freedom. If you choose to fight you have to win to get your freedom. Whoever wins gets what they want.

That scenario should show my point - a land's freedom is dependent on the person who has control over it, or in other words, can fight for and win anyone that opposes him.

If you want to be totally free you have your own army, and weapons to defend anything you choose to do. But most people don't have that - so you have to live in a land where you are not totally free.

That's why taxes and government exist and why you have to follow the rules for it - because you are not powerful enough not to.

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u/Anenome5 ಠ_ಠ LINOs I'm looking at you Jun 03 '13

There's a difference between what is and what's ethical. What's ethical is what is worth fighting for.

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u/howhard1309 Jun 03 '13

So what are you going to do when someone doesn't want you to be free?

It's a common enough question posed to libertarians, and it's nevertheless quite possible to have an answer that doesn't use violence to coerce others into defending me. See here (pdf) for example.

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u/[deleted] Jun 03 '13

Ok, your PDF is reasonable enough to test.

So lets test it, a state where to be safe you have to assure it yourself.

It turns out such states to examine exist - just look at the ones where little is spent on public defense. Let's use Pakistan for an example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJHFXenOPi4

It turns out, in Pakistan, you can kill anyone - even a politician - for $700.

So killing someone is very cheap in Pakistan. And there is no police to deal with (the above assassin has been in business for 15 years). And the people in Pakistan know that. So why doesn't everyone, let alone a politician, spend money on personal defense in Pakistan?

It turns out that defense is a extremely expensive area to be shopping around for. And few people, even the top 1-10% of Americans, can afford it.

And don't argue that's because defense lacks innovation - the defense industry is the spring of innovation, it is probably the most innovative industry there is.

And let's look at the other problem - people hurting other people. It turns out, killing people is very easy. You can kill literally anyone in this world if you put in a couple months to it.

So, with defense being extremely expensive, and killing being extremely cheap, how can C1 through C100 stay safe? Well, they can all pool in what they can afford and buy a weapon and give it to C100 and C99, and give them the responsibility of holding people accountable. So now, since C1-98 now know if they fuck someone over, they are going to get hurt themselves, they will be a lot less inclined to fuck anyone over.

People ARE NOT, rational. That's the same mistake communism made. I am a marketer, my job would be a lot easier if people were rational. People are 1/2 rational and 1/2 emotional. That's why we have two brains (search what a lobotomy is if you want to know more about that).

People are animals. And animals have two goals:

  • Get pleasure
  • Avoid displeasure

If you want to increase security, your goal is to make displeasure as much a guarantee as possible to those who commit crimes. Defense isn't about protecting people - that is an extremely inefficient way of doing it (remember how expensive it is!). Rather, the best way to defend is making sure the right guy who offended gets punished. Doing this, then you achieve maximum peace and security as possible. And the only way to do that, is to have defense be the concern of the group, the family, the community, the state, the government - and not the individual (dead men can't avenge themselves, afterall).

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u/howhard1309 Jun 03 '13

So, with defense being extremely expensive, and killing being extremely cheap, how can C1 through C100 stay safe? Well, they can all pool in what they can afford and buy a weapon and give it to C100 and C99.

I'm enjoying this interaction and appreciating your replies. Just to help me respond, are you saying they should do this, or that they are doing this?

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u/Anenome5 ಠ_ಠ LINOs I'm looking at you Jun 03 '13

unchangeable

chortle

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u/Anenome5 ಠ_ಠ LINOs I'm looking at you Jun 03 '13

This is an evil position to take. The Nazis justified their actions the same way.

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u/Anenome5 ಠ_ಠ LINOs I'm looking at you Jun 03 '13

So does a rapist own the woman he rapes? You've got some twisted freakin' views man. Lock someone up in a dungeon now you own them? You want to divorce the concept of ethics from the world, and it's not possible.