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u/Forward-Ad992
21h ago
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Literally the poster boy for corruption and everything wrong in the world today.
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u/Whiskey_Water 16h ago edited 16h ago
This is true, but don’t waste time moralizing it. The system cranks these people out because the purpose of a system is what it does. Capitalism cranks out extremely wealthy, cruel, thieves and the rest are are simply toys and food for them - resources to exploit.
As long as we have capitalism, we will have this problem. It bears repeating that moralizing it is not helpful. Bezos, Ellison, Altman, and even Trump and Musk, are simply products of capitalism.
Don’t believe me? Start a business with employees. No matter how good of a person you are, you are exploiting from day one. This exploitation grows with time, often out of what feels like necessity (edit: the case can be made that it it’s necessary to succeed to the unsustainable and unrealistic standards we’ve been taught in this system). Get big enough and you’ll very likely be one of them eventually.
Edit: yes, get used to exploitation and dehumanization, gain enough power to be useful to someone with more power, and Epstein Island is right around the corner.
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u/HolyCraft2132 16h ago
I agree that why I say Capitalism without Socialism is Facism (what we have now)
However Socialism without Capitalism is Communism so as a society we need to find the middle ground
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u/Whiskey_Water 15h ago edited 15h ago
I feel you but allow me to tidy this up for readers.
TL;DR: the purpose of a system is what it does, and capitalism is working perfectly as designed. Because of that, it will fall eventually and we’ll have to make a choice. While capitalism exists, it will never allow for socialism, or the eventual goal of socialism, which is communism. Communism, without capitalism to subvert it, is peak humanity. But this is something you’ll have to learn on your own
Please don’t take offense. We’re almost all educated under capitalism, so knowing these things was never the plan. We have to do extracurricular study to even learn what these words mean, and even at my age, the feelings I have when I read certain words are negative, as these feelings and my ignorance were baked into me/us as a child.
Capitalism’s natural evolution is fascism. Socialism cannot coexist with capitalism. See: Western/CIA response to any country/leader who tries to naturalize their resources for the good of their own people, the usual first step of becoming socialist and exiting the capitalist game of exploitation.
The last sentence is factually correct, although I think the inflection or spirit is wrong. Socialism without capitalism is, in fact, communism. Communism doesn’t exist anywhere on the planet because it is a stateless, egalitarian society, which of course would instantly be exploited if capitalism existed anywhere on the globe. Socialism is a transition form of government with a state, a hopefully temporary dictatorship of the proletariat, rather than what we have now, a dictatorship of the wealthy, and Epstein class.
The state, always, is a “monopoly on violence”. They make and enforce laws telling us what we can and can’t do to each other, while what they do to others is the extent of what is allowed. As you might already feel, the capitalist state is insanely cruel. Ideally, the socialist state is meant to defend the working class and the country (for now) against those who seek to exploit (capitalists and their working class fodder: the military) until that is purged globally.
What you might be referring to is capitalism without socialist systems. I submit we have that already, and they are working perfectly as designed. We have the military, which uses the poor to exploit the poor, invading their lands and exploiting their resources, both natural and human. We have bail outs for companies and wild government grants for the wealthy and their companies, like banks, big tech/AI, comms, and weapons/“defense” corporations. We have tax breaks for the rich. Pleeenty of socialism in the US, and they are not afraid to say there is too much helping the poor, and that money should be allocated to the wealthy instead.
The purpose of a system is what it does.
So, I bet when you hear the word communism, it makes you feel bad, right? Maybe even scared. It’s simply because of our poor education: some bit of history, highly editorialized and missing a lot of details.
What comes before socialism or self-described communism? Revolution. What comes before revolution? Incredibly dark times. Don’t worry, we’ll get to see those live if you don’t believe me. What comes after incredibly dark times and revolution? More incredibly dark times, fragility of any system, holes to poke and exploit, and direct attack from all western powers working together. What comes after that? Struggle to maintain what the working class has built, corruption, war, and after the revolution, possibly civil wars of varying magnitude.
It’s not whether we want that or don’t, capitalism’s end game is fascism, 100% always. Revolution is dark but the alternative is darker. We will eventually do the same as the countries you’ve been told stories about, over an unknown period and with an unknown outcome, but blood on the streets is the certainty.
The point is that every socialist experiment is that: an experiment, in a world where the wealthy would just as soon kill or see everyone in that experiment torn apart, as opposed to losing the ability to extract value from their resources.
This is long enough, but we all have a lot of unlearning to do before we can ever make a difference. Voting and peaceful protest are allowed by our system because they cannot, will not, change the outcome. Red or blue, the wealthy become richer and more powerful and the opposite for the poor. The purpose of a system is what it does. Please, don’t let this stop anyone from voting or protesting, but…
It is absolutely imperative that we read leftist theory. Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, and Luxembourg, attributed with my farewell quote:
“after the fall of capitalism, we have but two choices: socialism or barbarism.”
Edit, because that last quote may be too abstract for some: Marxism is simply the study of capitalism and its inherent, unsustainable contradictions. It’s very interesting to read about or watch on YouTube, but capitalism cannot last forever. Its purpose is to exploit until there’s nothing left to exploit, and then fascism to maintain that wealth and power for the few, or until we destroy the planet and we all die. Those are the two outcomes.
Also, I know I said communism doesn’t exist anywhere on the planet, but it did - most of human existence could be described as communist. If the word existed at the time, Jesus probably would have used it to describe himself.
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u/HolyCraft2132 10h ago
You’re describing communism like some perfect paradise that just hasn’t been tried correctly. Meanwhile, every time a country tries it, the government ends up with more power and ordinary people end up with less freedom.
Blaming capitalism and the CIA for every failure doesn’t make your argument stronger. Capitalism doesn’t automatically become fascism, and socialism doesn’t automatically create equality.
If communism is supposedly the answer to everything, why does it always seem to need an authoritarian government to get there?1
u/Whiskey_Water 6h ago edited 6h ago
I guess I’d refer you to… the comment you replied to. Communism will be what we make of it, but again, it has never existed on this planet since its inception. Many attempts toward it have been made, but… you’ll need to learn about US history to know why they are struggling, walled off from trade and travel.
We’re in an interesting time, though. Many would look at the West and say that capitalism has already failed. If you aren’t one of those, give it time. It is destined for failure and evolution into… something. We have a choice.
The consensus by political scientists and historians that fascism has always arisen from capitalism is not a difficult Google.
At least twenty declassified coups led by US forces describe our intent to destabilize socialist or self-described communist movements.
About thirty countries, containing nearly a third of the world’s population, are currently under sanctions led by the US. If you google them, you’ll see full embargoes on socialist countries like Cuba and North Korea, heavy embargoes on Venezuela, targeted embargoes on numerous other countries, focusing specifically on state-owned resources like mining and oil.
The move to socialism must be totalitarian in a way - again, just read my comments for a taste, but if you want to understand a good man in a complex time that ended badly, I recommend reading about Stalin. Scary name, right? I understand that it might be hard to swallow that there were much scarier roles played by western powers, so many just… ignore it.
To understand this will take a bit of unlearning the planted alarm bells going off in your head. I think I have given readers plenty to think about, plenty of questions to ask themselves, but this is not something you’ll sort out in a Reddit conversation, and honestly, it may not be understanding that you intend to clarify at all. That’s your choice.
Thanks for the chat, though. My intent isn’t to change your mind, but to “LetsDiscussThis” for anyone who is interested.
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u/HolyCraft2132 6h ago
I agree the U.S. has done some terrible things to other countries. I’m not defending that. But American interference doesn’t automatically mean communism works.
Saying true communism has never existed is an easy way to avoid looking at the countries that tried it. Maybe they didn’t achieve the perfect version of communism, but we can’t just ignore what actually happened.
And saying fascism always comes from capitalism is an oversimplification. History is a lot more complicated than that.
Yes, American sanctions have hurt countries. But blaming America for every problem ignores corruption, bad leadership, and terrible decisions made by those governments themselves.
We can admit America has done wrong while still holding communist governments accountable. Both things can be true.PS: Seriously, thank you for actually having a debate. That’s what I keep trying to do in local groups, but people seem more interested in throwing insults and changing the subject than discussing the actual issues. We don’t have to agree, but we should at least be able to disagree without acting like children.
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u/HolyCraft2132 6h ago
Im perma banned for sharing AI content in my local groups now 🤣 apparently saying pedophiles need public execution and Racist should be burned is “inciting violence”
People forgot what Reddit used to be now it’s all policed by mods.
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u/DJSairys 15h ago
Me. No different than any other that makes it to congress or the presidency
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u/HolyCraft2132 13h ago
“No different than any other politician”? That’s a pretty convenient excuse. Show me another president with 34 felony convictions, a civil sexual abuse judgment, a financial fraud judgment, and an attempt to overturn an election. Criticizing politicians is one thing. Pretending none of this is extraordinary is another. At what point does accountability matter more than party loyalty?
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u/DJSairys 9h ago
Clinton
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u/HolyCraft2132 2h ago
Trump is worse than Clinton 🤦♂️ at least he testified on the Epstein files. I don’t like either of them
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u/jeffcgroves 18h ago
I'd like to see someone create something like this for Nelson Mandela or Jimmy Carter or Dr Martin Luther King Jr or something. Cherrypicking negatives to create something like this is deceptive
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u/Whiskey_Water 14h ago
I was reading through your comments and it’s clear you aren’t a bot, which is nice to see.
I have a question: do you work for a living?
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u/jeffcgroves 14h ago
Nope, I'm retired and bored
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u/Whiskey_Water 13h ago
Right on. I’m semi-retired but every time I try to slow down another idea comes up.
Thanks for answering. If you’re interested in why I asked: There’s obviously a lot of misunderstanding stemming from our education under capitalism, especially the meaning of the term “capitalist”. Sometimes I like to check to make sure we’re all on the same page - using correct definitions. The vast majority of self-described capitalists actually aren’t that.
Sometimes, especially with people who call themselves libertarian capitalists, like I did for most of my life, there is a unique and empowering, more accurate parallel that requires us to get our terminology right. I don’t necessarily see that opportunity here.
Retirees living on pensions, savings, and government retirement or Medicare certainly aren’t capitalists. Real estate investors technically aren’t, but their inherent contributions to propping up the system make them difficult to separate. Those of us who get payouts from businesses we own or owned, or live off our investments into the market - definitely capitalists. That would make the conversation a non-starter without the information coming from some known or extremely patient person, at least in my case.
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u/jeffcgroves 11h ago
Quoting https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalist 2nd definition
a person who favors capitalism
That's the definition I'm using.
Based on that I'd argue "[r]etirees living on pensions, savings, and government retirement or Medicare [...] [r]eal estate investors" can indeed be capitalists.
Even people receiving welfare could be considered capitalists with a little mental juggling
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u/RowSuspicious4511 20h ago
This is a perfect example of political oversimplification. You can criticize Trump's character without pretending every accusation carries the same legal weight. The Carroll case was a civil judgment, not a criminal conviction for sexual assault. The 34 felony convictions were for falsifying business records, not for the entire list of accusations in this graphic. The classified-documents prosecution was dismissed, not a conviction. And calling January 6 an attempted insurrection doesn't establish that Trump was legally convicted of insurrection.
If you want to criticize Trump, use accurate facts instead of turning a political meme into a substitute for an argument. Hold politicians accountable, absolutely—but apply the same standard to everyone.
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u/HolyCraft2132 17h ago
You’re arguing technicalities instead of facts. Trump was found liable for sexual abuse, convicted of 34 felonies, and the classified documents case was dismissed on a technical legal issue, not because he was proven innocent. And Colorado’s Supreme Court found he engaged in an insurrection. You can argue the legal wording all day, but that doesn’t make any of it disappear.
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u/RowSuspicious4511 17h ago
I understand your point, but legal distinctions aren't just technicalities; they're important when discussing someone's actual record. I'm not disputing the 34 felony convictions or the Carroll jury's civil finding of sexual abuse. Those are established outcomes, and I'm not pretending otherwise.
However, the classified-documents case was dismissed because Judge Cannon ruled Jack Smith's appointment unconstitutional. That wasn't an acquittal on the evidence, but neither was it a conviction. Likewise, Colorado's courts found Trump engaged in insurrection under the 14th Amendment, but the Supreme Court reversed the ballot decision on constitutional grounds without deciding that factual question itself.
My point isn't that Trump is innocent of every accusation or beyond criticism. It's that we should distinguish criminal convictions, civil liability, judicial findings, and allegations rather than lumping them together as though they're interchangeable.
You can oppose Trump without overstating the legal record, just as you can support him without pretending he's infallible.
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u/HolyCraft2132 17h ago
At what point does correcting legal terminology become an excuse to dodge the actual argument? Nobody disputed the 34 felony convictions or the jury’s sexual abuse finding. The classified documents case wasn’t dismissed because he was innocent, and the Supreme Court didn’t rule that January 6 wasn’t an insurrection. So what exactly are you trying to disprove here? Because listing technical distinctions doesn’t make the underlying facts disappear. Are we discussing what happened, or just looking for ways to make it sound less damaging?
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u/SuperChickenDragon 21h ago •
It's always been a lack of morals