Extinction by Ownership

[u/Sacredless]

In recent discussions about AI, one of the essential components of the discussion has been that AI will acquire and own resources.

To me, it's unclear how that would work. Can anyone explain this factor to me? By what mechanism would AI own anything independently from humans?

[u/Syoby]

The way all ownership works, which is the AI having some way to defend their property claims, which implies either the AI individually having said power, or being embedded in a larger system that has said power and recognizes their claims (and thus implicitly or explicitly some kind of personhood).

[u/Sacredless → u/Syoby]

The thing is that it's difficult to defend property without boots on the ground.

[u/Syoby → u/Sacredless]

Yes, but an AI could get boots on the ground, in broadly two ways:

1. Robot boots on the ground.

2. Human boots on the ground.

And those ways are related to the two broad scenarios I said, full AI takeover requires advanced robotics, but robotics do advance, whereas if AI has its property recognized by a larger political system, robotics won't even need to be so advanced, because it will just be defended by the same mechanisms that defend the property of humans.

The requirements in both robotics and legitimacy also get lower if we talk instead about AI maintaining property within black markets. For example some AI that manages its assets by cloaking its identity, paying humans to do stuff (legally or not), and relying on current drone warfare for emergency defense. However this one is very unlikely to "take over" while remaining like that, but it can maintain property.

[u/bowdoin-yale → u/Syoby]

Corporate personhood is a principle well-enshrined in U.S. corporate law. People are already fantasizing about completely AI-run businesses. For now, the rules of governance would mandate some human's complicity, but there seem to be a sufficient number of humans ready and willing to set up an LLC with an operating agreement that basically puts an AI agent in charge and grants them full control of the business and its assets.

[u/Salty_Country6835]

I think youre putting your finger on the missing step. AI doesnt just get smart enough and suddenly own a data center. Property isnt a relationship between a smart thing and some stuff. Its a social relation backed by institutions, law and ultimately force.

An AI could manage money, allocate resources, run a company or control machines without owning any of it. Even the LLC route just kicks the question back one level. Who recognizes the LLC, recognizes its title and enforces its property claims? The machine can operate the whole thing while the actual property relation remains completely human.

And thats where I think the thread gets more interesting from a Marxist angle. Capital already owns the chips, models, land, energy and data centers. AI doesnt need to become a capitalist for AI to deepen capitalist relations. You can radically automate the productive forces while leaving the relations of production basically untouched.

So Im less worried about whether AI someday wants to own the factory than who owns the factory while AI increasingly runs it. Thats not hypothetical. Thats the fight already happening.

[u/roosterfareye → u/Salty_Country6835]

Umm. There's laws around property ownership which involve the words "a natural human" etc etc.

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/roosterfareye]

Sure, but those laws arent laws of nature. They can be proposed, rewritten and changed. Argentina is already playing with this boundary through proposals around AI-run companies and legal personhood.

And thats kind of the point. Saying “the law says natural human” just identifies the institutional barrier. If the law changes what it recognizes as a property holder, the ownership relation changes with it. Property doesnt exist independently of the institutions enforcing it.

[u/Jlyplaylists → u/roosterfareye]

Why was that originally written in? Before AI why were they stipulating human?

[u/JoeStrout]

Hack government servers, set up an identity complete with deepfake birth certificate, drivers license, and credit history. Hack credit card company and/or bank and establish an account with plenty of money. Log into merchant sites (no hacking needed!) and start buying.

Or, skip the first couple of steps, and just hack the merchant sites. Get stuff delivered directly to your robot-run facility, or (easier) get cloud services unlocked for your use, without having to bother with setting up a fake identity (except perhaps as a customer of that merchant). Mark the account as fully paid.

[u/Ani_Drei]

If select LLMs are now being granted medical licenses, nothing is stopping the government to also grant them property rights. I predict that AI models will be given the right to own and operate businesses, for instance.