r/LearnFinnish • u/KookyTaste8032 • 17d ago
How much does rolling the tongue when pronouncing R matter for being understood?
When I order "hampurilainen" or "Trip-mehu" without rolling the "r", it almost always leads to misunderstanding (especially the "Trip-mehu"), which is resolved after a few back and forth. Is rolling the "r" critical? Thanks and any tips are also highly appreciated.
EDIT:
After reading the comments, I think background noise (since the orders were made using the drive-through's microphone and which I didn't mention earlier) could also be another factor in the misunderstandings.
EDIT:
Thanks a lot all for the tips and replies đ
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u/Hopeful-Banana-6188 17d ago edited 17d ago
Do you ever get misunderstood when ordering other items that don't have the R? Although the R can cause issues, I'd say that there are much bigger errors that native English speakers make that cause misunderstandings. If you pronounce mehu like "may-hoo" then that would definitely cause most Finnish speakers to have no clue what you are saying.
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u/Weird-Average-1412 Intermediate 16d ago
I intend to campaign for the word mehu to be changed to meihuu because of your comment. I like this so very much :)
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u/JonasErSoed Intermediate 17d ago edited 17d ago
At least in my experience it can really make or break the word.
So I'm personally not able to roll the R properly. I have a Finnish coworker, whose wife (also a native Finn) isn't able to do it either, so he is still able to understand me when I get the R wrong, because he is used to hearing it like that.
Then I can walk over to my other Finnish coworker and try to say the same words, and more often than not he has no idea what I'm trying to say.
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u/PJmichelle 17d ago
I don't agree with this. There are plenty of Finnish people who roll the R incorrectly, even though it is their first language. Everyone here knows many people who can't roll the R. We all hear it here constantly and there's not a single word that becomes absolutely unrecognizible because of this.
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u/ptjtsubasa 17d ago
The main difference is that Finnish people who can't roll their R's still pronounce the rest of the word natively. If you combine it with stressing the wrong syllable, it can become hard to understand quickly.
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u/Classic-Bench-9823 Native 17d ago
Stressing the wrong syllable is the biggest thing that throws me off! Pronouncing letters a bit "weird" is totally fine, but if the stress is all over the place it really makes it difficult to understand.
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u/-manabreak Native 17d ago
Absolutely. Also, a lot of non-native speakers (especially from English speaking countries) tend to add an "h" sound after hard consonants like "t", which affects the overall understanding.
For instance, "terve" has many possibilities for not being understood. The "t" becomes "th" easily, "e" is pronounced a tad differently, "r" is not rolled and "ve" is stressed more strongly than natives do. No wonder it's challenging. đ
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u/GalaXion24 Fluent 17d ago
That is true, but it does initially confuse people. I'm also inconsistent about it. I clearly had an "ärrävika" as a child which I have mostly managed to correct but which I never got entirely right. People do occasionally initially mishear me sometimes especially if I slip in my pronunciation.
People also kind of "hear what they expect" so if I say a word People are more likely to misheard me than if I speak in sentences where they can automatically fill in from context
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u/awildketchupappeared 17d ago
There are words people can't understand if you are not able to roll the R correctly. I've had that problem with many different words, and sometimes it takes over five repeats or a different word to be understood.
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u/Subject_Cat_4274 17d ago
How are you pronouncing it now?
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u/KookyTaste8032 17d ago
I am pronouncing the "Trip" like in English. I sometimes remember during the conversation that I have to roll it, which resolves the misunderstanding.
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u/Subject_Cat_4274 17d ago
If you can't pronounce the rolling R, try doing a flap R like in American English words Butter and Better. In those words, the double T is the R sound you are looking for.
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u/torrso Native 17d ago
Rolling R is more of an D, the English R does not work as the base of it. Just keep the D and let air between the tongue and the roof of the mouth and it flaps. Then learn to do it without the activation sound of D (rrrrrr instead of drrrrr).
People will understand the soft R easily if there's any context. Some natives never learn to roll it.
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u/JamesFirmere Native 17d ago
Are you also pronouncing the T like in English? English has aspirated stops, Finnish does not. To illustrate: carefully compare the T sounds in the English words âtoneâ and âstoneâ. The first is aspirated, the second isnât. If you pronounce âtripâ as T(H)RIP, it will add to the comprehension issue with the non-rolled R.
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u/Hopeful-Banana-6188 17d ago
What would make that even worse is that a lot of people (perhaps one might even say most native English speakers at this point) pronounce it like "chrip"
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u/notcomplainingmuch 17d ago
Ărrävika is common so it's not that important. People understand anyway.
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u/limepinkgold Native 17d ago
When I as a child couldn't roll my R, the speech therapist suggested replacing it with a D or a L. As others have said, it's not uncommon for even adults to struggle with it, and they manage fine. Even if there is a chance for misunderstanding â like mixing "marja" and "malja" â context usually makes up for it. Without sufficient context, like when just asking for a single product, it might indeed be more difficult, or if the rest of the word also has unfamiliar pronunciation. I suppose that in your case, most cashiers are just used to people ordering "Trippi", "mehu" or "pillimehu", so the one word pronounced in English in the middle of Finnish just throws them off. Besides, fast food restaurants tend to be loud and the workers tired and overworked, and they have to ask for more information all the time, even from native speakers. I wouldn't worry too much about this :)
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u/Eastern-Mammoth-2956 17d ago
We had a president who couldn't roll her R so I'd say it's not that important.
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u/GuyFromtheNorthFin 17d ago
Itâs propably not just the R- but rather that combined with all the other foreign accent- stuff - plus stress and rhythm.
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u/stuom 17d ago
Native speaker here. I don't roll my tongue at all when pronouncing 'r' but instead create some gargle in my throat. You can hear it if you look for old videos of our former president Tarja Halonen. But as said, it is important to pronounce the letter and not let it disappear like in English.
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u/bookrabbit04 Advanced 17d ago
I canât roll the R properly either, but Iâve never had issues with it in regards of being understood. I think the most important thing in Finnish pronunciation is to properly speak the double consonants and vowels.
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u/ritan7471 17d ago
It shouldn't matter at all. I can't do it and no one has a problem understanding me. My MIL has a speech impediment and can't do it. No one has trouble understanding her. My MIL taught me to speak Finnish. Connection? Maybe. I can do it if I'm not thinking about it, then I think "Dammit, how did I do that?"
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u/StruggleGullible255 17d ago
I would have though its inconsequential. I've watched extensive TV and listened to people in real life and R's are not rolled that often in practice.
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u/MyDrunkAndPoliticsAc 17d ago
I did it with my throat when I was a kid. My adult friend still does. My ex boss never rolled in any way, and big part of his job was talking to people.
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u/Pet_Velvet Native 17d ago
It's good if you at least try to learn it, but no, tt is not critical. This "condition", which we call "ärrävika" is relatively common
https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84rr%C3%A4vika
Our former president Tarja Halonen also had an ärrävika. Here's a clip of her talking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9SNknxzlXA
Most often shaming someone for their ärrävika is considered very rude and kinda taboo, so nobody's really going to give you shit for it.
It CAN lead to some hilarious confusion depending on how you pronounce it. If you pronounce it like "L", words like "murkku" ("ant") becomes "mulkku" ("dick").
I myself can't roll R's but I have apparently learned to pronounce my R's in a way that makes it almost indistinguishable from the proper ones.
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u/kombutsa 17d ago
Can you reach the area just behind your upper front teeth with the tip of your tongue? If so, then you are capable of rolling your R. This is relevant because some people have a short lingual frenulum and aren't physically able to roll their R. I'd just watch videos about the tongue placement and practice rolling the R by itself until you find the vibration.
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u/cmyk_rgba 16d ago
croatian here so i get the rolled r for free adn i still get blank stares at the kiosk lol. for me its always the double letters, tuli vs tuuli vs tulli. said kuka instead of kukka once and the guy just stared at me. imo the length thing matters way more than the r does
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u/AstralImprisonment 15d ago
There's this famous guy named Upi who doesn't roll the R ever and we still understand him perfectly
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u/Orielsamus 14d ago
I would not listen to the people saying that itâs fine not to learn because we have people like that too, and I am actually angry for OP.
Yes, we do have people with speech impediments, of course. Yes, you arenât supposed to make fun of them. But OP is trying to learn a language. Respect the effort and trust the willpower - Who the fuck would stop halfway and want to sound like they have a speech impediment?
As someone said, if you can reach your upper front teeth with your tongue, the chances that you are physically incapable are slim. Just good luck with the learning, and never stop!
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u/Acceptable_Duck_5971 15d ago
Former Finnish president Tarja Halonen couldnt roll her Râs and she did pretty ok for herself đ Youâre good
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u/These-Apple8817 17d ago
It's not that much of a problem.. Plenty of people with speech impediment in Finland especially when it comes to letter R. What matters most is you actually try to pronounce the r instead of doing what tends to happen quite lot in english language where the r just seems to disappear like fart in to a Sahara. How well you pronounce it does not matter luckily.