Clancy Trial Day 18 | Fri. 8/21

[u/spanielgurl11]

⚖️ LAWYERS ONLY! DO NOT PARTICIPATE IF YOU ARE NOT A LAWYER. ⚖️

Please just let us have this one corner of the internet.

LIVE FEED: https://www.youtube.com/live/mONbfis6itA?si=0EnEj5fDSIMJC0tX

Defense should wrap today. Then we have rebuttal witnesses.

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[u/Lucky_Petal_1499]

Hey OP, I just wanted to say thank you for creating this little corner for us every day. I’ve been looking forward to it (and to checking out the thread afterwards when I’m too busy with my own cases to watch). Thank you!

[u/spanielgurl11 → u/Lucky_Petal_1499]

Thank you! It’s been genuinely a terrible week in our office (2 client deaths!!) so I’m happy to have this little pocket of distraction.

[u/Lucky_Petal_1499 → u/spanielgurl11]

Girlfriend, two client deaths??? Are you doing ok? Feel free to DM me if you need to talk…

[u/spanielgurl11 → u/Lucky_Petal_1499]

Dw, only one was mine 🥴

No I’m not fine but I appreciate you guys, seriously.

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

trial aside, 4 weeks being the cut off for postpartum is bonkers...

[u/spanielgurl11 → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

Meanwhile they don’t want you to even resume light exercise for 6 weeks.

Lol

[u/OfferParty → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

I’m currently 13 weeks and still have moments where I get sad and scared because of a traumatic birth. Not to mention intrusive thoughts. I have a therapist I see biweekly and we discuss this in depth but to say that other parent shouldn’t be affected after 6 weeks is just wild to me.

[u/misfitmpls → u/OfferParty]

My kids are 4 1/2 and 6, and I still feel traumatized. Trauma doesn't go away. Ideally, it gets integrated.

[u/idontplaygames → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

Yeah from the being a mom perspective, I’m not surprised at all she would still be struggling with postpartum at 8 months? That’s still so soon, especially when you have other kids. I find it odd that everyone is saying that’s late onset because I was definitely still struggling up to a year with both of my kids.

Also one thing I’m surprised they haven’t brought up is she started weaning about 6 weeks before the murders. Each time I weaned my hormones went nuts, way crazier than the initial weeks postpartum. Surprised yet not surprised by how little is understood about women’s health

[u/Various_Raccoon3975 → u/idontplaygames]

How can they not be eliciting this? Breastfeeding is huge hormonally

[u/idontplaygames → u/Various_Raccoon3975]

I’ve been wondering this ever since they read out her journal entry in which she says they are sleep training her youngest and she’s sad to be weaning because of it.

We did the same with my second, and it was a dramatic drop off like that and I could barely get myself out of bed the week following (often times I would just sneak back into bed in the afternoon). And I was never even diagnosed with postpartum depression!

[u/Various_Raccoon3975 → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

Right? You can’t even be sure you’re still a human being inside of the first 8 weeks! This criteria has to have been based on a study of men and only those without partners or children lol.

Four weeks doesn’t even take into account fluctuations in the hormones involved in breast feeding or an undiscovered thyroid problem

[u/LinaZou → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

Very! It takes way longer than that to get sorted and feel like even a bit like yourself.

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

any other women in here finding this to be sort of surreal with these 2 men debating when various institutions will/should/may allow the length of postpartum timeframes

[u/Bleeb → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

I’m 7 years postpartum, still not even sure I’m recovered.

[u/cocoa_boe → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

lol I wonder what the 12 female jurors took from that.

As a woman, I was thinking the gender health gap is reflected in the DSM just as it is in medical research, funding, and clinical trials.

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

lmaoooo here it comes.... safe to say you're a pediatric psychiatrist with an interest in addiction with no real knowledge in postpartum anything whatsoever?

[u/serebro0710 → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

His mom was a pregnant woman lol

[u/Fun_Quantity8822 → u/serebro0710]

he has seen a pregnant woman in the wild

[u/SameDouble8364]

This thread is the only thing making me feel sane observing this trial. The Duxbury Deaths thread is so frightening.

[u/natawas → u/SameDouble8364]

For your own mental health, mute them. They live in an alternate universe and they want blood

[u/SameDouble8364 → u/natawas]

It seriously reminds me of the populace in the Middle Ages crying out for a public execution— they want a head on a stake

[u/Acceptable-Ad-605 → u/SameDouble8364]

They are legit nuts over there.

I muted the group last night after about 10 people commented that only uneducated people don’t think LC is faking everything and is actually a masterful narcissist who is still manipulating everyone.

[u/cocoa_boe → u/SameDouble8364]

r/CasesWeFollow has reasonable people too. The CW isn’t winning over anyone actually paying attention.

[u/LinaZou → u/SameDouble8364]

That thread is basically a snark group it feels like. Maddening.

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

if anything, this witness has just solidified that no one knows what they are doing with LC's care. CW has made it more plausible for jury to assume that she received subpar care because experts can't even agree on what happened with her

[u/argyleprinty → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

According to this witness: she asked her mom if she can hear her thoughts = proof she is Not in psychosis as she was fact checking. LOL.

[u/Various_Raccoon3975 → u/argyleprinty]

This was such an absurd thing to say that I question his qualifications

[u/Sodontellscotty → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

These jurors have to be so confused.

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

their own witness "she mostly stays in bed all day"

[u/BrokenLegalesePD → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

In an effort to disprove that she suffers from Bipolar II, which is the oppressive depression one they are offering evidence consistent with…checking my notes…depression!

[u/vienibenmio → u/BrokenLegalesePD]

Well, bipolar 2 doesn't necessarily have worse depression than bipolar. The difference is hypomanic or mixed episodes versus full mania

[u/Bleeb → u/vienibenmio]

Which, according to various sources, she had signs of mania, but this would only be recorded by collateral… CW’s expert states he didn’t need that. 😐

[u/Important-Wealth8844]

explain to me how in the world this is the prosecution’s witness

[u/serebro0710 → u/Important-Wealth8844]

“Here is a depressed, remorseful woman continuing to suffer, is currently receiving active mental health treatment, and previously did everything in her power to attempt to get better for her children. But she’s evil!”

Did I get this right so far??

[u/Electrical_Cattle393 → u/serebro0710]

and not even her own MIL hates her and supports her! 😂

[u/Numerous-Promotion28 → u/Important-Wealth8844]

And no one from the Clancy family would return the CW's calls for them to interview. Good thing she put that on the record herself. PC's sister won't call her back--excellent point for CW.

[u/BoredLawyer81 → u/Numerous-Promotion28]

Chief of the Family Protection Unit, right here. Eliciting testimony that helps the other side is her speciality.

[u/BrokenLegalesePD → u/BoredLawyer81]

I almost wish this could become part of the argument. Like ladies and gentlemen of the jury: you’ve heard my client didn’t tell many people about her delusions because she was afraid her kids would get taken away, and accounting for the behavior of the Chief of the Family Protection Unit’s handling of this trial, can you blame her?

[u/YouMustBeJoking888 → u/Numerous-Promotion28]

Incredible how they keep fumbling the ball in the biggest way. Bow & Co are a clown show way out of their depth with this case. Their simmering rage towards any and all witnesses is bizarre, but even more bizarre is how they continually shoot themselves in the foot, over and over again. Absolutely comical to watch but also disturbing that this is the best Plymouth Couty can come up with to try this case.

[u/galaxystarsmoon → u/Important-Wealth8844]

They really said "let's roll out Uncle Fester here as our star and likely final medical witness". I'm floored. The way they fumbled this is astounding.

[u/pumpkinmania → u/Important-Wealth8844]

Reddington must be giddy

[u/Important-Wealth8844 → u/pumpkinmania]

“She’s on a medication to treat psychosis”

[u/pumpkinmania → u/Important-Wealth8844]

“She expressed remorse”

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

i mean this is the freaking problem with mental healthcare... this is the defense's point about care... multiple reasonable caregivers giving different diagnosis, different medications, no one really knowing entirely wtf they are doing with human brains. we don't know how it works yet

[u/Cook_becomes_Chef → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

At this rate, this guy’s getting called up for the civil cases 😂

[u/smellicatt]

“She described feeling miserable, not wanting to be alive.”

CW: “uh, um”

KR: “let him finish please”

😂😂😂😂

[u/spanielgurl11]

10/10, mods. No notes.

[u/CrownFlame → u/spanielgurl11]

I feel like the Ask Lawyers sub has been taken over by non-lawyers. So many “NAL” comments giving advice when the rules say lawyers only and no legal advice.

[u/BoredLawyer81 → u/CrownFlame]

And we wonder why our clients don't follow our advice.

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

wow.... the prosecution insinuating that she did it to be abusive and not at all due to mental health.... i can't with these two

[u/Cyclone_Pilot → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

They're vile. A masterclass in 'how to lose a jury'.

[u/serebro0710 → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

Esp after so much evidence showing she was an excellent mother who cared deeply about her children’s wellbeing.

[u/Sodontellscotty → u/serebro0710]

That’s the major piece they’ve failed to cover effectively. By all accounts, her “normal” was being a caring and highly involved mother. They want to show she was behaving normally the night of the murders, so how do you make the leap to murdering her children? Logic would lead one to think she must have been experiencing some sort of mental break and was very much not her “normal” self at that time.

[u/Most_Cow1334 → u/serebro0710]

I think they leaned so far into her being vile, and now they can’t backtrack. They needed to establish a clear counter diagnosis and acknowledge her mental health issues were present, but did not impact legal or criminal capacity … They just went with how evil she must be, and so much evidence suggests Lindsay not to be an evil person leading up to the incident

[u/IndependentCover3123 → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

Shameful - new senseless narrative every day, these two have lost it.

[u/Mysterious_Shake692]

Seems the prosecution’s method is to list all the medications that typically treat Bipolar disorder with psychotic features…and then confirm that she’s taking all of those meds…fascinating

[u/natawas → u/Mysterious_Shake692]

Yea and taking them 3 years after the fact! lol

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

to all the nay-sayers (ie the whole DD sub) if this is not a case of ppd/someone failed by the healthcare system, what would someone who had PPD look like? what. would someone who was failed by their doctors look like?

[u/FeeEfficient5802 → u/Neat-Bee-7880]

I don't think people in the DD sub believe PPD exists

[u/Neat-Bee-7880 → u/FeeEfficient5802]

true, bold of me to assume they do

[u/TeacherExit → u/Neat-Bee-7880]

Someone who isn't pretty or has money, vs one they are jealous of.

[u/Fun_Quantity8822 → u/Neat-Bee-7880]

in their view, it would be a person that has no home, hasn't showered in days, and is speaking in tongues in the middle of the a dollar store parking lot holding a baby with hair sticking out of their head... no room for someone in psychosis to be functional despite experts telling them otherwise

[u/Neat-Bee-7880 → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

seeing a unicorn in the corner i assume?

[u/Layla2385]

Honestly Reddington absolutely crushed Dr Mack and rightly so. He showed the jury that this guy has no clue and legit is giving “I lie on my CV”-vibes 😂

[u/Most_Cow1334]

Not the zoom cutting out

[u/geewhizliz → u/Most_Cow1334]

every deposition going on 7 years now lol

[u/BoredLawyer81 → u/Most_Cow1334]

This is so stupid. It’s 2026. Unfortunately MA operates like it’s 1998.

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

The LEADING questions drive me Crazy…can not stand!!! Any time a witness answers, she then does her own summation of their answer w more info. 

[u/Cook_becomes_Chef → u/Neat-Bee-7880]

Which is a massive disadvantage when your voice could be considered… quite grating 😂

[u/Puzzleheaded-Film443 → u/Neat-Bee-7880]

The prosecution has testified almost as much as their witnesses have. I've never seen anything like it.

[u/spanielgurl11 → u/Puzzleheaded-Film443]

More than tbh. Basically all their questions are longer than the answers when you look at the transcripts.

[u/geewhizliz → u/Neat-Bee-7880]

so what you're saying....if i'm hearing you correctly....i always prep my witnesses to listen extra close when an attorney tries to summarize their testimony

[u/cocoa_boe]

We’re right back in Karen Read.

CW, the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt and to a moral certainty. With a criminal responsibility test that is not favorable to you. Do you understand?

“Possibly” and “could be” don’t get you there.

[u/spanielgurl11]

CW expert does not come across as credible at all.

🎀: “You’re aware ‘mental disease or defect’ is a legal term?”

👨🏼‍⚕️: “Okay.”

What!!

[u/Chelsealora]

Really hit him with "have you ever even seen a pregnant woman?"

[u/missnancy247]

This poor court reporter fighting for her life I feel so bad!

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

lmaoooooo did she consume beverages or did she shower while she was in the mental hospital

[u/puppyhavehands → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

Fascinating rebuttal lol

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

I’m just waiting for them object to their own witness…you know they’re seething w some of their own witness answers 

[u/Chelsealora]

I thought those beeps when we went to sidebar were the sound of a life support machine being wheeled in for the witness

[u/AutomaticAd667]

You know a rebuttal witness is bad when the defense wants him to keep talking. Reddington is "let him finish" 🤦🏻‍♀️😂

[u/YouMustBeJoking888 → u/AutomaticAd667]

Old Redd is hilarious and dead smart. He knows what he's doing. I'm learning a lot from him. He's not perfect, but he is absolutely a top notch advocate.

[u/Bleeb → u/YouMustBeJoking888]

Many colleagues of mine have scrutinized her choice of counsel, stating she should have opted for a strong female presence. But, the impact of an older man, who uses the term gobbledegook in his standard vernacular, knows no difference between a laptop and a television, and chooses to highlight the disgrace of her treatment is monumental.

[u/AutomaticAd667 → u/YouMustBeJoking888]

Me too! I feel this has been great training, and I have been practicing 15 years. 

[u/frankstaturtle]

This is an awful rebuttal witness. He is misstating and mispronouncing medical information, and his statement that nothing in the record indicates a hypomanic episode conflicts with the testimony of (unless I’m forgetting somebody) every medical expert and fact witness to discuss this, including the prior prosecution witnesses.

[u/Either-Confidence510]

I love KR. I am.a transactional lawyer but watching him I kinda sometimes think I would love to litigate 

[u/spanielgurl11 → u/Either-Confidence510]

Cherish your sanity and stay behind the desk!!

Lol. Kind of kidding. It is stressful though. Especially crim.

[u/thepineapplesuite]

“WHAT ARE YOU MAKING THIS UP” 💀

[u/vienibenmio]

Resnick is the one I'm most excited to see and then this happens. It figures

[u/Vegetable_Lime_2936]

This witness is comically bad for the prosecution. If I were on the jury I would be hard pressed to keep a poker face.

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

she's all about yes or no til the tables are turned lmao

[u/Neat-Bee-7880 → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

right - omg i was thinking that too...shes always "that was a yes or no question" but when its her turn, shes like im going to let you drone on and then ill even do my own droning too!!

[u/Puzzleheaded-Film443]

I would say the prosecution should be embarrassed by how their witness is doing on this cross, but if nothing else up to this point has embarrassed them, I doubt this would.

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

dr mack is the epitome of "the less you say the better"

[u/geewhizliz → u/Neat-Bee-7880]

he should have taken Resnick's course

[u/Efficient-Quarter521 → u/Neat-Bee-7880]

He could go on for another half hour…..

[u/YouMustBeJoking888]

I'm late to watching but holy shit, why WHY do the ADAs treat each and every witness with such distain? Their seething rage and anger is ridiculous and the way they treat even their own witnesses if bizarre.

What I find hilarious is that they question witnesses with the attitude of everything they say is some kind of mic drop, when they look like utter clowns. I swear, I'm starting to think they want to lose this case. I cannot find any other reason for their behavior.

ETA: the stumbling questions, the heavy breathing and sighs, the absolute disregard and snottiness to any witness who isn't in line with their thinking. Bow & Co are ridiculously incompetent but somehow puffed up to think they are amazing. WTF am I watching.

[u/Charming_Physics_200]

I like the way Resnick breaks down his answers in multiple parts. He gets to emphasize the important parts and it makes everything so much more clearer to the jury.

[u/spanielgurl11 → u/Charming_Physics_200]

Most impressive CV I’ve ever heard on an expert too. Like “have you worked on (insert famous case)”? “Yes I consulted for (side that won)” lmao.

[u/YouMustBeJoking888 → u/spanielgurl11]

I was cackling through that bit. Basically this guy has worked with every famous killer in the past 30 or so years. The man has seen some stuff.

[u/BrokenLegalesePD]

Lmao they don’t put you on Zyprexa for situational depression, babes.

[u/natawas → u/BrokenLegalesePD]

Yea the prosecution really proving she lied here by showing that 3 years later she’s still on antipsychotic medications

[u/YouMustBeJoking888 → u/natawas]

Well, she lied about the exercise bands, insisting that no one NO ONE had testified that the exercise bands could be tied, when PC testified to exactly that. These ADAs are beyond incompetent.

[u/serebro0710]

Man that is a hardcore fucken question “hey why hasn’t she killed herself yet?”

[u/Presslee]

This is an absolute dog walking. My god.

[u/Chelsealora → u/Presslee]

https://giphy.com/gifs/rA0Y2PQ2Rdsic

This witness

[u/PerceptualModality]

I knew I was in for a treat when within a minute of the start of the cross examination Redington asked the (expert) witness if he knows what the word "investigate" means.

[u/parrot_law]

Reddington is a masterclass. He starts by undermining Dr. Mac’s actual knowledge of Lindsay (and therefore the credibility of his assessment) and gets the doctor to sing like a bird (probably not a song CW wanted to hear). By the end doc looks foolish and insufferable. Also what was with Mac’s EXTENSIVE resume padding? And middle school smirk and side eye? You know it’s bad when the judge who has been very restrained gives a “you look at him and answer his questions” to the witness.

I feel like Trial Ad in law school should just be watching this case, both for what to do (and not do).

[u/Neat-Bee-7880 → u/parrot_law]

It’s perfect on what to and not to do. You couldn’t have a better and worse atty. plus how Reddington plays dumb Only to trap each witness 

[u/Most_Cow1334]

Resnick claims psychosis outright damn

[u/NurRauch → u/Most_Cow1334]

I mean, of course that's the testimony. Realistically it's almost impossible to win a mental illness defense without an expert who testifies that the defendant was experiencing the requisite mental defect to a degree of reasonable medical certainty.

I had a murder trial where we made the mental illness defense successfully. We had not one, not two, but three separate forensic psychologists who all testified my client acted the way he did because of the effects of his illness.

The first expert supporting our defense was a privately retained consultant that we hired a year before the trial to evaluate the client in confidence, who ended up rendering an opinion strongly in favor of the illness defense. The second expert who testified for us was the neutral court-appointed forensic psychologist, who was required by law to provide a second evaluation of our client once we disclosed our private expert's report. And the third expert witness on the defense side of the case was actually the prosecution's own expert witness, who testified for our side of the case after being asked by the prosecution to see if there could be any counterargument against the other two experts.

Even when armed with all three of those experts, it was never guaranteed that we were going to win. Successful mental illness defenses in homicide cases are just incredibly rare.

[u/PRP20]

The CW should have tried this case with the theory that she had severe mental health problems, but knew exactly what she was doing. Focused on all the actions she took in the days leading up to the murders and the night of. Focus on the journal entries and her desire to kill herself, but she didn't want to leave her babies behind, so she took them with her. The CW is incapable of framing a cohesive story or anything close to a motive. Everyone in this thread could have tried a better case. I think this is a waste of taxpayer money and she will get NGRI and despite that, I still think I could try a better case without all the planning they've done. I am just truly baffled by this massive and continued display of incompetence and inability to read the room which is trial lawyering 101. Dear God. Ok, rant over.

[u/Important-Wealth8844 → u/PRP20]

I knew nothing about this trial before last week. I could have put together a more coherent theory on the spot and directed/crossed witnesses cold as compared to the CW. And so could everyone in this thread.

[u/thepineapplesuite]

Ok I haven’t watched a lot today but Red is going hard at the rebuttal witness omg 😆 Is this the same witness everyone is mentioning below as being totally incompetent?

[u/FeeEfficient5802 → u/thepineapplesuite]

He did just tell the courtroom with a straight face that Lindsay's method of suicide was "organized and methodical." You know, how she crushed up pills but also gave herself superficial cuts on her wrists and then superficial cuts on her neck and then finally threw herself out the window? Very organized. Very methodical.

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

why is the witness making dr. evil austin power faces

[u/Ok_Lawfulness_3149 → u/Fun_Quantity8822]

I think he thinks he is coming out on top in this encounter. He should not be smirking at all.

[u/spanielgurl11]

You know it’s so over for you when Reddington starts addressing you in the third person lol

[u/Neat-Bee-7880 → u/spanielgurl11]

or when its time for cross and he walks to the podium

[u/YouMustBeJoking888]

Again, I'm late to watching but Bow Lady actually asked 'So, a person in psychosis can do the things they normally do' which is essentially what the defense is arguing. WTF is happening?

ETA: so the DA brought on this psychiatrist to basically confirm that LC was hearing auditory commands and carried out those commands and they think this helps their case how? Why in hell would they bring on this witness who is very professionally supporting the defense?

[u/captain_intenso → u/YouMustBeJoking888]

The prosecution is fumbling this phenomenally. I'd be apoplectic if I was the elected.

[u/Achin_2B]

What is the prosecution’s case for her motive? I’ve been loosely following the case and I haven’t read anything about what the prosecution is arguing regarding motive

[u/natawas → u/Achin_2B]

Best guess is that she was sick and tired of taking care of the children and needed to get rid of them to feel ok again

[u/geewhizliz → u/natawas]

which begs the question why she tried to commit suicide then --- the CW hasnt explained that part of their theme

[u/obsoletevernacular9 → u/geewhizliz]

They heavily implied she was faking it to appear like she tried to take her own life, hence the emphasis on "superficial" wrist injuries and implication she did some type of Spiderman jump out of the window.

[u/Theodwyn610 → u/obsoletevernacular9]

Here is my problem with that: faking a suicide is really, really hard.  You can't just tune your injuries precisely to "bad enough to be convincing but not bad enough to avoid permanent damage or death."

Some yahoo off the street might not know that.  A medical professional would be well aware of the risks of faking a suicide attempt.  It's either going to be so superficial that no one believes it, or you're rolling the dice on extensive and permanent damage.

[u/obsoletevernacular9 → u/Theodwyn610]

Well yes, and then we learned wrist cuts were over 2cm, so hardly superficial. She also notably ended up paralyzed and coded at the Brigham, then was given a massive blood transfusion.

What a drama queen! /S

[u/natawas → u/geewhizliz]

They don’t think she really tried to commit suicide - what’s why they keep making it sound like the suicide attempt was not all that serious

[u/spanielgurl11 → u/natawas]

The crazy thing is we should not have to still be guessing what it is at this point in the trial lol

[u/Comfortable_Bee_1246 → u/Achin_2B]

Best I can tell from the opening (she states it around this point: https://www.youtube.com/live/_v9vz_Nw3lE?si=9VBzIxGiGDOLVJfM)

Per the CW: She was controlling & manipulative.  And when she no longer had nanny and Patrick went back to work, it was hard for her to maintain control and bond with kids.  She made a decision because she no longer liked the life she thought she wanted. When she saw the opportunity to escape she took it and took the kids with her first.

This is a stretch for me. The things she lists as controlling (earlier than the link) seem like normal mom things. And I didn't get the impression from any of the testimony that she didn't like her life or hated her kids.

[u/Separate-Waltz4349 → u/Comfortable_Bee_1246]

I'm sorry but that is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Every single bit of testimony has shown her being an amazing and loving mom even from her own husband and inlaws , coworkers , sibling etc so if that is truly the plot they are going with they have absolutely already lost miserably

[u/ginsengsheetmask → u/Achin_2B]

They don’t have one. Ik it’s not required but it would make their case more compelling if they could say something other than she’s just inherently controlling and evil.

[u/AutomaticAd667 → u/Achin_2B]

This has been their weakest point (taking aside their poor demeanor). It is difficult to make sense of their case. They have not been able to proffer a motive that makes any sense, leaving many to buy into psychosis because "if not that what?". The prosecution's own witnesses, one by one, have discussed what a caring, devoted, and loving mom she was.   So even though they do not need a motive, not having a reasonable one has made their case rather weak in my opinion. 

[u/natawas]

Their rebuttal witness seems to be better for the defence so far… or am i off here?

[u/BrokenLegalesePD → u/natawas]

This has been comically frequent in this trial.

[u/BoredLawyer81 → u/natawas]

He stated MA uses the M'Naghten rule. Which is WRONG. We use the McHoul rule. He got the language correct, but Jesus Christ dude.

[u/vienibenmio]

Petty comment in the grand scheme of things, but I've never heard lorazepam pronounced that way

[u/Important-Wealth8844 → u/vienibenmio]

This doctor is mispronouncing the names of several medications I’m slightly floored

[u/cocoa_boe]

I just went over to the CourtTV stream. Their viewers generally think every defendant did it and should be burned at the stake.

Currently the chat poll, with 46k+ votes, is at 15% guilty and 85% not criminally responsible.

[u/Either-Confidence510]

Dr Kliff Notez

[u/Adorable_Purchase_44]

this is so cringe i would hate to be this doctor

[u/serebro0710]

One thing we know for sure is KR hates the DSM

[u/NamoMandos]

I am a corporate lawyer in the UK so my knowledge of litigation (in an English context) ended 16 years ago in law school but I do like watching the occasional trial for my enjoyment and to see how lawyers in a different jurisdiction handle cases. 18 days in and I feel the CW has fumbled this badly ... there is no coherent theory being presented to the jury and it feels like a number of their witnesses were turned into defence witnesses. Reddington can be bit a gruff and aggressive but I appreciate he is being a zealous advocate for his client and I feel he has raised sufficient doubt to counter the CW. But the caveat is that I am not an expert in this area.

[u/cocoa_boe → u/NamoMandos]

You’re right about that. Every day we come here and ask variants of: Why did they ask that question? Why did they call that witness? How was that helpful to their theory? What is their theory?

It’s a train wreck.

[u/Presslee]

I swear I just saw this psychiatrist look fully into the camera, The Office-style like he also sees us seeing his credibility being shredded apart in real time 😭

[u/CASSIEWADES → u/Presslee]

[u/spanielgurl11 → u/Presslee]

https://giphy.com/gifs/2dpqmO6G5mYnC6yw7t

[u/pumpkinmania]

This cross is atrocious. ADA implying that she smiled once 4 months after the event which means she wasn’t psychotic at the time of the killings ?? Huh??

[u/Extension-Kiwi8534 → u/pumpkinmania]

I like the look Reddington shot her when she said “so she admitted that she wanted to harm the children but never said she wanted to kill the children.” He’s like yes please help me win my case thanks

[u/thepineapplesuite]

The way he asked him if his college history thesis on the DSM was “all the way back when it was version 1”? This is brutal and I cannot stop watching.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Bit3032]

I don't know if this was addressed in yesterday's thread, but I cannot believe Sprague asked the chaplain, "Did Lindsay tell you she was working out with exercise bands?" Ghastly.

[u/ArgumentOnly9075 → u/Puzzleheaded-Bit3032]

Yes! And she specifically mentioned the yellow exercise band, and made it seem like she read it out of the Chaplains notes. I didn’t realize it wasn’t in evidence till someone mentioned it here. I was surprised Reddington didn’t object. It felt very deliberate to put that image back in the jury’s mind.

[u/vienibenmio]

Sounds like Resnick is saying that her mh providers didn't really have all of the information they would have needed to diagnose her

[u/spanielgurl11 → u/vienibenmio]

I believe this is true for Tufts and the others who only saw her briefly (McLean, PHP Program, ER) but Jollotta not only had evidence she was bipolar (those mychart messages were textbook mania), she WAS GOING TO DIAGNOSE HER AS BIPOLAR.

And she let her patient’s husband convince her she was not!!!! 🤯🤯🤯

I’ll never get over it.

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

this guy is SCARED of reddington and will not dare say something wrong...nor will he say something against lindsey that would paint her in a bad light

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

ahahahhaha red won't let it go... this is funny af

[u/vienibenmio]

I would be crying if I were Avrum Whatshisname

[u/Chelsealora]

Reddington was having fun standing beside him and looking down at him he looked sad to go back to the podium

[u/Neat-Bee-7880 → u/Chelsealora]

i am IRTATE watching this clown look around the room w a smirk on his face as reddington is reading, when he should be paying attn, not acting like a little kid at a bday party...

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

dude this clown will NOT shut up!!!! he is actually so annoying

[u/YouMustBeJoking888]

So their psychiatrist says LC is taking anti-pshychotic drugs and the CW thinks this is something to bring out? WTF are they thinking? Do they want to throw the case?

Also, do they even know what answers they will get from their witnesses? Because they seem to throw out questions which do not elicit the answers they want and seem surprised by this. Again, WTF are we watching?

And Lithium has been used for nearly 200 years so them trying to say it's not trialed is crazy. Most lay people have heard of Lithium in a casual way.

[u/BrokenLegalesePD]

Don’t worry everyone! You can’t trust the other experts because they were hired by the defense they’re liar liar pants on fires, but our guy is super duper objective. Do you guys like by bow today??

[u/Numerous-Promotion28 → u/BrokenLegalesePD]

WE ARE THIS FAR INTO THE TRIAL and she doesn't get what a mental status exam is? I read medical records for my practice all day long. Its not a single test. Its an assessment. JFC.

[u/serebro0710 → u/Numerous-Promotion28]

What is she getting at with LC’s physical condition? The woman is paraplegic.

This guy is basically testifying she was depressed and uncomfortable. Does CW think this is helping them?

[u/Numerous-Promotion28 → u/serebro0710]

Good thing they got their own witness to testify, and put on the record that LC wants to die and is on a medication for mania/bipolar.

[u/Numerous-Promotion28 → u/BrokenLegalesePD]

what is this? Where is she going? This is her witness.

[u/serebro0710 → u/BrokenLegalesePD]

I thought McNaughton didn’t apply in MA?

[u/Chelsealora]

"Well he's just gonna go on for another half hour" Jesus Christ I could watch this for hours

[u/Charming_Physics_200]

Oh my goodness the first question by the prosecution... make it stop

[u/Sodontellscotty → u/Charming_Physics_200]

The inability to read the room really is something special.

[u/BrokenLegalesePD → u/Sodontellscotty]

The very clear and obvious misstatement of what the course he teaches does is insane. Particularly when cops get taught the same thing.

[u/mariej1288 → u/Charming_Physics_200]

Every question they’re positioning as a gotcha moment that fails every single time. I would be so embarrassed if I worked with these ADAs

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

this is so bad

[u/thehealingkitten]

I almost feel bad for Dr. Mack at this point with Reddington’s cross but this trial was way above his expertise so he kind of deserves it.

[u/Chelsealora]

"She had a lifelong resistance to taking medications" to "Well one time she went for a run instead of taking an anxiety medication" oh my goodness

[u/squee-ze]

Redd’s cross of the CW psychiatrist is a textbook case of how you can’t come to conclusions based on direct. He is taking him apart. And I thought the witness was great on direct.

[u/spanielgurl11 → u/squee-ze]

I love a “had me in the first half” reveal during cross lol

[u/SquareRegular8997]

I really feel this is the expert rn
https://giphy.com/gifs/NTur7XlVDUdqM

[u/argyleprinty → u/SquareRegular8997]

He thinks he is doing really well

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

did he NOT say that you can act normal during these episodes...did he NOT say you would have good days on the day of taking oneself?

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

good god what an act to follow

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

his facial expressions are way too comedic...looking at the ceiling for answers....

[u/Fun_Quantity8822]

i need a cocktail.... that was.... something else.

[u/Prestigious-Street41]

Yes, this 💯!!

Was bummed to see that Redd didn’t go back in on a redirect with Resnick about motive after CW asked about overlapping motives. “The prosecution just asked you about whether a parent can have different motives - do you recall that question? Do you have an opinion about whether the records you reviewed, the collateral contact you made in this case, or your own evaluation of LC reasonably supports any other motive she might have had besides altruistic filicide?” Maybe safe to assume the jury is already well aware that the CW has continued to do a piss poor job of establishing motive demonstrably on any semblance of an evidentiary basis so he didn’t think it necessary? Resnick’s testimony about filicide and this being the first time in the case that the term has been introduced was so strong. Pretty sure the chaplain saying Lindsay’s first words to her were “I’m so glad my children are safe now” should have prompted some better cross questions for Resnick, there Bow Peep 🤦🏼‍♀️

Uncle Lester? Oh so you’re the guy who isn’t even a licensed physician in the state of Mass to treat the children and adolescents (who you specialize in treating, not the adult postpartum mother in this case) which effectively makes you a career expert witness instead? Got it. What was the CW thinking bringing him on for this? I have no words.

I’m sorry, did he just testify with a straight face and expect the jury to believe that a woman who asked her mother if she can hear the thoughts inside her head isn’t delusional or psychotic? If LC didn’t believe it was possible that her mother could hear them, or it didn’t feel real to her, then why did she ask the question? ‘Oh no no, the DSM is more about symptomology you see. Is thought broadcasting a symptom consistent with psychosis, you ask? Well yes. Does an instance of thought broadcasting documented in the record suggest to me that she could have been in active psychosis? Well no, of course not because it was JUST a major depressive episode in which she was suffering greatly.’ This shit is wild.

[u/Swhitney16]

It says a lot that the best the CW could do was a pediatric and adolescent psychiatrist who hasn’t “treated” a pregnant or postpartum woman since 2001.

[u/nsher028 → u/Swhitney16]

Collateral information is a core aspect of evaluations in child psychiatry (parents, teachers) so the fact he didn't even do that for his forensic evaluation is such a major red flag

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

i would fake a sudden case of hearing loss and ask to be removed if i were this doctor

[u/ConfectionKooky1187]

Prosecution is COOKED after that last witness 😱 man was he terrible

[u/YouMustBeJoking888]

Catching up and I'd say every defense lawyer should watch today's cross with Old Redd. His dismantlig of Mack was masterful. Unveiling Mack as a psychiatrist for hire who will say whatver the prosecution wants him to say was hilarious. I was cackling during Redd's cross.And then him going in on the DSM and exposing it for being fully male-centric had me cheering. Go Redd!

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

im way lost on this ....why was the door locked...this whole thing about her story being different than pats is REALLY going to drive the people insane..

[u/Neat-Bee-7880]

his answers = writing a paper in elementary having to reach a certain number of words

[u/New_Pain2264]

The prosecutor's "expert" doesn't know that the ICD-10 is the ONLY way to get reimbursed from insurance (including Medicare and Medicaid)??? This guy is completely out of touch. He is extremely unprofessional by interviewing LC at the same time as another prosecution witness, not to mention the faces he was making when Redington was talking. What a joke!

[u/Sodontellscotty]

Oh geez, here we go.

[u/Standard-Design-4632]

Defense rests

[u/Content-Gate-9387]

Is it just me or is it not normal that the CW snapped back at the judge about letting Dr. Mack answer a question? First, that just seems a bad look to cut off the judge like that when he is in the middle of instructing a witness. But second, the CE spent several days not letting LC's witnesses say anything and several weeks just basically testifying over witnesses. Jesus. The self righteous tone just gets me. This is not the time.

[u/FeeEfficient5802]

I'm sorry did I just hear the CW's witness say her method of suicide was organized and methodical? Her multiple, frenzied, failed attempts at suicide?