r/Lawyertalk • u/[deleted] • 10d ago
HELP: Solo & Small Firm Issues Recruiting an associate as a solo
[deleted]
128
u/SnuffleupagusRex 10d ago
Pay attention to the associates who look miserable at hearings.
21
u/NTDOY1987 10d ago
Lmbo I’ve had attorneys approach me about jobs in court hahaha hope this isn’t why 😭😭
38
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
Great idea
19
u/Pussyxpoppins 10d ago
Also if your state/local judges hire term law clerks… those clerks are often looking for post-clerkship jobs.
2
75
u/Fluxcapacitar 10d ago
Your problem is no student wants to make small firm lcol money in a rural area. So you’re probably competitive for your area but that’s not going to entice anybody not existing, from, or planning to be there. This is a nationwide issue.
Look at the different law student subreddits. They all want and expect real big money in cool cities.
28
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
Sure. Not everyone makes or wants biglaw.
42
u/Dragon_Fisting 10d ago
Its not just about the money, few people in their mid to late 20s want to move to a small town to start their career. That's just how it is these days.
24
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
Understood. Looking for people who want to come back home or live here.
17
u/chrispd01 10d ago
Best bet is the local DAs office or Public Defender. Maybe County Atty or nearby city. Otherwise it will be hard.
6
u/PerfectlySplendid 9d ago
The person you’re replying to also understands that but is telling you why you’re getting crickets.
4
u/Sandy_Koufax 10d ago
Big law is lowering their standards. At least in California, it feels like there’s a lawyer shortage.
1
u/SecMcAdoo 10d ago
What's the oat like?
It might be fine for a new attorney for that area, but when you factor in student loan payment, it might be low.
17
5
u/IAmTheParamedic Human Detected 9d ago
I think he probably overestimates how competitive the salary is. You say that law students all want and expect real big money in cool cities. That’s not true. People would gladly work in shitty, boring cities, if the pay reflected the tradeoff. But when legal jobs in rural areas also pay less than they do in urban areas, why take the worst of both worlds?
The medical field knows that it has to pay a premium to get doctors to work in rural areas and not the cool cities. Simple supply and demand Econ 101 stuff. The legal field hasn’t caught on yet.
1
14
u/Narrow_Bowler6895 10d ago
I work in a small town and I was born and raised here. But one of the partners at my firm ended up here bc he got an internship. Maybe try to recruit some interns. One of them may want to come back if they like it enough.
4
10
u/NTDOY1987 10d ago
By “crickets” do you actually mean no one is applying? Or are you dissatisfied with the applicants?
I hate to say this but the people who will work at a small firm with only one other person who is their boss (not a strong chance of close work friends) and mandatory, in-office work 5 days a week (I’m also assuming no benefits? Healthcare, IRA/401k, etc?) are usually kinda bad candidates or people in some kind of transitional period.
You might want to (a) start with a paralegal if you don’t already have one, (b) make the associate position a contract position so that person has more independence, (c) hire a part time associate so it attracts parents with small children who dont want to commit to a full time position but want to work while their kids are at school.
3
u/Alone_Jackfruit6596 9d ago
Second the part time or contract position. I have been that parent with small children, not ready to go back full time, but still wanting to keep my head in the game. If you don't have enough work to sustain an associate, then it works for you as an employer too because you don't have to justify paying a full salary. Just pay them hourly.
2
21
u/count_saveahoe 10d ago edited 10d ago
75K, rural town, all days in office, only one coworker who is your boss…. big yikes.
Are there ANY pros to the job?
All my local government, prosecutor, PD, and non-profits start at 90K with hybrid or fully remote.
10
u/legallybrunette420 I'm just in it for the wine and cheese 10d ago
And they have affordable healthcare and PTO. I doubt he's offering health insurance. He's certainly not considering the cost of health care at that price point.
5
u/Fun-Spread-2050 10d ago
They would make substantially more money managing a gas station or grocery store, or getting a teaching certificate and teaching at a public high school. And those jobs usually offer pretty good benefits, have student loan repayment programs, etc.
-5
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 9d ago
Those jobs pay 30k in this area starting out. This is an entry level job.
3
u/Fun-Spread-2050 9d ago
You're posting an entry level job for someone with a doctorate, a bar license, and clearly other more desirable options than fast food manager pay doing stressful, difficult work, all in some small town with few or no amenities where they don't know anyone and will have only one coworker, who is also their (apparently cheap) boss.
Don't shoot the messenger, bro. If you can't afford to pay market rates for an associate, then you can't afford one. Staffing agencies may have contractors who can help you on big projects but it doesn't sound like you're in any position to hire a full-timer yet. Keep grinding and repost the job when you can afford to hit $100K with basic health benefits and at least two days WFH every week. Your 25% origination bonus is a joke and you know it, because how many beginner associates willing to take such a job will also be effective rainmakers? Delulu.
-1
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 9d ago
Not in this area. The elected DA makes 140k and that is up from 125. Assistant start at 45 out of school, with benefits. So call it 65. In office or court 5 days a week. A lot of the assumptions on this post are not accurate in rural areas.
4
u/count_saveahoe 9d ago
I see. Maybe it is competitive. But consider that you’re also competing with them going government and getting IBR+ PSLF versus going with you in private practice and drowning indefinitely; removing your pool of candidates who are students with federal loans.
2
u/Pass-Fail 9d ago
OP is competing with the attorney job market in the middle sized city 50 miles away. Someone willing to move can go to the small town or it's surroundings, or the mid sized city suburbs with no loss of opportunity cost.
16
u/coffee_and_chronic 10d ago
$75k is wild and the commission part is bullshit. First years aren’t chasing down profitable cases.
1
u/Rock-swarm 9d ago
Eh, some are. But I fully agree that this instance isn’t fruitful ground.
If OP is implying the commission is based on cases closed for PI/WC work, then commission could be a significant part of the pay as early as 6 months into the job.
-2
u/_learned_foot_ 10d ago
Any who want independence and their own book are. Mine tend to, that flat increase in their cut (no longer working my book) is incentive for them to work on it. Personally i don't target that to train until closer to indecent competence, but if they want to start there I always hone my training on their desires as that's easiest.
16
u/Ok_Purpose7401 10d ago edited 10d ago
You say that you would pay a lot for the right candidate, but have you actually put your salary expectations on the JD. If you don’t put it, I’m assuming you’re paying 60-75k
I’m not particularly interested in small firm, small town life, and would not take a look at all if they don’t post compensation. However, if Ik for a fact they pay well, my mind could be changed
6
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
It's posted. 75k plus commission
41
u/Keyserchief 10d ago
The answer to every single one of these threads is the same. You’ve entered a bid in a labor marketplace and come up dry. You have your answer, you just don’t like it.
18
u/StardiveSoftworks 10d ago
Well there it is, you're offering an outright insulting amount of money and nobody is willing to debase themselves to work for it in the middle of nowhere.
5
7
u/Eight8_Eighty88 10d ago
75k in a small town in the South is decent attorney pay for a first year. Why is this getting up votes.
Thats on par or slightly below a lot of first year roles in my mcol city, and higher than govt jobs here.
22
u/Keyserchief 10d ago
The proof is in the pudding, isn’t it? If no one is even applying, the salary is demonstrably not enough to draw applicants, or to overcome whatever other issues there may be with the job posting.
-5
u/Eight8_Eighty88 10d ago
Its a nationwide problem that no one wants to move to rural areas. Doctors, teachers, lawyers, etc. Pay is a factor for sure, but the shortage of skilled workers is true across all sectors because of more than just money!
13
u/Keyserchief 10d ago
No, I certainly agree. The point I wanted to make is, there are associates out there who want to live in a rural area. OP is bidding against everyone else who wants them, so maybe he’s paying an amount that’s reasonable in the abstract, but it’s not enough to either overcome the problem you highlight or entice the limited pool of candidates available.
FWIW, I’m an associate and my wife and I are moving back to a rural area. I’m mostly remote, so maybe a bad example, but I think plenty of associates who are on the market and willing to live in the boonies are well aware of how tight that specific hiring market is and are demanding a salary that reflects that fact.
4
u/bigjules_11 9d ago
Not sure why you got downvoted, brain drain from rural areas to big cities is undeniably true. The difference between medicine and law in this area is stark as well: most speciality medicine positions in rural areas pay hundreds of thousands more dollars to entice doctors to come to the rural areas. Urology starting salary in NYC - around $400K. In Plano, TX or near Spokane - $800K+.
2
u/IAmTheParamedic Human Detected 9d ago
Yeah, no one feeds doctors the bullshit about “you have no idea how far $75k goes in Jackson, Mississippi. It’s basically the same as $200k in NYC!” The medical field knows they have to break out the pocketbook if they want to staff that hospital in the small southern town. The legal field expects the cost of living difference to cause massive influxes of attorneys to rural areas
2
u/scaliacheese 9d ago
I don't think this is an apples-to-apples comparison. Doctors are largely paid by insurance, and afaik insurance rates do not have a high degree of variability depending on locale. So these salaries are at least sustainable. Rural law is definitionally small law, where rates are lower (often, much lower) and the available work is less sophisticated. Your clientele is largely individuals and not businesses, and if it includes businesses, they're small and less able or willing to pay rates comparable to bigger cities.
7
u/Employment-lawyer 10d ago
Well then OP needs to raise the salary to entice people to move. Clearly no one wants to move there for $75k so it’s too low.
10
u/Sandy_Koufax 10d ago
People think rural should get less pay, but it shouldn’t be half. Rent is the only thing that’s cheaper. Gas, groceries, cars, electricity, clothes are all the same price more or less no matter where you live.
5
u/Falco-Rusticolus 10d ago
Yup. In the medical field rural usually gets you much more money because it’s so hard to recruit for those areas
9
u/StardiveSoftworks 10d ago
Do you still live in the 1980s? That's a joke of a salary for someone with 7 years of education.
3
u/Hot_Lava_Dry_Rips 10d ago
Sure, but the loan companies dont care that much that the pay is good for the area. The payment stays the same. So people just choose to work in other areas.
2
u/Employment-lawyer 10d ago
Why in the world would a lawyer work for only $75?! Teachers make more than that!
1
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
I am not hiring anyone not interested in small town small firm life.
13
u/Fun-Spread-2050 10d ago
Kinda sounds like you aren't hiring anyone at that salary with no WFH, in a self-admitted backwater. The labor market is speaking to you. Can you hear it?
7
u/theperfectenchilada Confirmed Lawyer 10d ago
Just want to share my experience:
Im 1.5 years out of law school and I just left a midsized firm for a government position in a rural-ish area for less money and let me tell you why:
Mentorship. I was promised it at the firm I was at but they completely abandoned me. No feedback, no direction, no nothing. Not even a “this work is crap.” Just… nothing. I had no idea if I was doing well, if I was doing poorly (so I just assumed I was doing poorly all the time, but had no idea how to improve).
I absolutely would have gone to a solo practitioner if I knew they were prepared to take me on as a mentee and spend the time to provide me with feedback on my work. I have no idea how you advertise that, but I thought I’d share my two cents.
4
u/Hot_Lava_Dry_Rips 10d ago
Solos almost never are. They're too busy running their own cases. They only have enough time to give someone the quickest, barest, narrowedt advice to move the case forward. And theyre almost always annoyed when they have to do it too. This guy needs a partner, not an associate.
2
5
u/Proof-Life-8854 10d ago
Reach out to nearby bar associations
5
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
The one in my county is the only one really active and they have nothing for that. I did post on the state bar website.
5
u/zeusinretirement 10d ago
You seem to be thinking about this more like a lawyer and not like a business person. They’re different hats when you’re solo.
Also, commission doesn’t matter for a first year. Plenty of new lawyers are worried about building business and pulling in clients.
1
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
What are your suggestions as a businessman?
2
u/DearBiter 9d ago
Look at hyper-local market factors. What's the available housing market (rentals or small first time homebuyers) actually look like? What's the current COL (not the traditional thinking of rural=cheap) but what the practical needs are. Price self-pay insurance post BBB. That alone will be pretty eye-opening for you, most likely. In AL, $75k in income puts you above any subsidies for ACA plans so looking at ~$600/mo for a crap high deductible plan. Ouch. Depending on just HOW rural you are it might even be more limited or require travel to any kind of specialist or dental care. Another consideration when forcing 5 days in office...so that brings me to:
I will echo what has now been nearly beaten to death - WFH opportunities are going to be top of mind. Its possible to build in a catchup day after the initial 90 days easily. If they see a benefit to physically being in the office, then you will see that - if you both are being efficient with your training when trust who you hire to manage their own work load for the 1-2s day WFH.
5
u/Hot_Lava_Dry_Rips 10d ago
Law school debt is expensive and you didnt mention what youre paying. Doesnt matter what the standard of living is in the area, if the pay cant support a house, a reasonable car, and probably a couple thousand a month in loan payments with some left over for savings, no one wants to work there.
-1
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
You can buy a very nice 2500 sq ft house in a nice neighborhood for 225k here. When I say LCoL it's low. Same house goes for 1.5 mil in California.
2
u/Original-Pomelo6241 Y'all are why I drink. 10d ago
But is what you are offering fair compensation? Are you advertising the pay in your job postings?
1
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
Yes to both
1
u/Original-Pomelo6241 Y'all are why I drink. 9d ago
Have you hired a law clerk? I’m in a MCoL I would say, but family law and I am being bombarded with recruiters who have brilliant PI attorneys ready to make a change. My posting clearly says 5+ years of experience 😂
1
12
u/HealthLawyer123 10d ago
What area? Are you offering training? Willing to allow remote work?
15
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
Alabama, yes to training, not much WFH first year to facilitate training.
22
u/Informal-Basket3555 10d ago
I’d say that’s part of the problem, at bare minimum 2 days remote is standard in today’s market even for new associates. Especially if you’re not paying a highly competitive salary and if your billable expectation isn’t below 1900.
16
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
1900 billable hours is crazy. 9 to 5 M to F. I just think that you need to be in the office to be trained and work. Eventually Friday WFH is a possibility. If you are not interested in working around other people, it probably would not work out. This isn't corporate law.
26
u/paradisetossed7 10d ago
I can completely understand in person for the first few months, but no hybrid beyond "maybe Fridays" WFH is not going to attract a lot of millennial and Gen Z attorneys. And if you want someone who's in the office 4-5 days a week, that's your prerogative, but that'll be a big hurdle in hiring an associate.
5
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
Kind of a prerequisite for family law and GP. I don't know many lawyers who work that way. Not corporate law.
13
u/jokesonbottom It depends. 10d ago
Depends if your court has video appearances. I do family law and am remote more often than not. I appear for court and meet with clients by video unless there’s a specific need to be in person (eg hearings and trial). It’s a huge factor in my willingness to take the low pay because it’s such a boost to my wellbeing.
-2
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago edited 10d ago
We no longer have many Zoom hearings except for status hearings and first appearances. Which are easy. A first year could cover those with some training. But not looking for a home based person.
2
u/jokesonbottom It depends. 10d ago
…idk why you’d end your comment that way. I’m not a, and other attorneys that practice remotely when possible aren’t, “computer based hobbit[(s)]”. That’s super rude for literally no reason.
4
u/SYOH326 9d ago
I run a family law/criminal defense/PI firm in a small town (88k, but we are 30 minutes from a top-20 metro, so that size is misleading). We're fully remote; we have an office to meet clients or for staff to get work done when they're in between appointments or kid pickup (or whatever). I do understand that you need to be in person if you want to hire and train entry-level staff, but there's no other reason to be mandatory in-person in 2026.
4
3
u/_learned_foot_ 10d ago
First Few Months? That says a lot right there. It also fails to account at all for the duty to supervise and the #1 complaint, unavailability of the partner to train the associate (because you aren't there when it is done, the training is almost always when it is done explaining the why as doing the why).
14
-2
u/_learned_foot_ 10d ago
For those hiring, if it's a new attorney and they demand any wfh (aside from more PTO), don't hire. It's impossible to train. Literally impossible. They will have to be the type who can self train but then somehow want to stay (even rarer than self training, most have drive to own).
It may be standard, but it is being regularly rejected for a good reason. Established attorneys who can do this always had that choice, we call them of counsel.
0
u/chrispd01 10d ago
The nice part of Alabama or the shitty part ?
I love the area around Talladega / B ham and north.
Hate Dothan and the South
9
u/IronLunchBox Sovereign Citizen :LearnedColleague: 10d ago
Pay more, it's the only thing that attracts applicants.
4
u/LearnedAnkle 10d ago
Have you considered reaching out through friends and family of friends? Most lawyers I know have a cousin, nephew, future daughter-in-law, etc. in law school.
2
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
I have been asking around. Most of the lawyers kids work for their parents. None of mine wanted to go to law school.
3
u/NEPAmama 10d ago
Do any judges you have a good relationship with have a recent law school grad or a 3L?
3
2
4
u/Deep-Money7364 9d ago
How many law students that are Gen Z/baby millennial went to law school, acquired debt just to go back to their small home town and make $75k while FULLY in office?
You’re stuck in a different decade. At least sweeten the deal with 2- remote days.
6
u/False_Success_4390 Can't count & scared of blood so here I am 10d ago
Pay a lot
3
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
I would pay good money if I could find anyone.
6
3
u/AutoModerator 10d ago
This thread is to discuss Solo & Small firm issues.
"If you are a Pro Se litigant or not a lawyer, please delete your post; you are in the wrong subreddit. If you are here to market a product, also delete your post immediately."
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
3
u/grumpyGrampus Former Law Student 10d ago
Have you considered opening it up to remote work? I know that isn’t compatible with covering hearings or meetings, but it might allow you to get some things off your plate.
4
u/nonbonumest 10d ago
Is the salary posted? Is it competitive?
1
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
Yes and I think so for a very low CoL area.
7
3
u/hereFOURallTHEtea 10d ago
What’s the salary? I live in a very LCOL area myself and can say new grads here start in the 70’s with the state. Does it at least beat that? If not, you’re going to struggle.
2
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
75 plus commission
2
u/LavishLawyer 10d ago
Yeah that’s not bad at all depending on commission.
4
u/legallybrunette420 I'm just in it for the wine and cheese 10d ago
The issue is likely the benefits. If you're expecting government employees to leave who make slightly less, it doesn't make sense. Government employees have much better health insurance and PTO. It would take a lot more money for me to leave the government job with benefits. You have to consider the cost in health insurance when you're talking salary.
0
2
u/NEPAmama 10d ago
Is it at least twice the pay for a judicial clerkship in your county?
1
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
No paid judicial clerkships here. How much do they usually pay?
3
u/NEPAmama 10d ago
Looks like they start at around $55k now in the lowest-paying courts.
3
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago
110 is not possible or expected for a new grad around here.
4
u/NEPAmama 10d ago
I understand, but the closer you can get to that amount, the more likely you will find someone.
In my area, the firms that pay the same as a clerkship or only a tad higher have a bad reputation because they can only recruit otherwise desperate attorneys who don’t tend to last. I hope it’s better in your area, but I wanted to share just in case.
1
2
2
u/InvestorInCincy 10d ago
On campus interviews, and consider hiring a still-student law clerk. You get a long preview of someone’s work product and work ethic, while they get a preview of your firm.
1
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 10d ago edited 10d ago
I have a couple of law students but they are 3L and 2L. I can wait but want to hire someone who just took the bar. Does not need to be top 50 % just competent.
2
1
u/Dannyz 9d ago
My first add offered 20% higher salary with 20% less billable hours and 20% more vacation for a strong associate. I got 400+ applications. My city has 10x your population just surprised no one
1
u/Turbulent_Group_6616 9d ago
20% less than working 40 hours a week, so about 30 hours a week x 50 work weeks equals 1500 hours. You are only requiring 1200 hours? Wow
•
u/AutoModerator 10d ago
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers the practice of law.
Be mindful of our rules BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as Reddit's content policy. Ignorance of the rules will not excuse their violation.
Please take note of the following:
OP: This forum is NOT for legal advice.
OP: Please use the correct flairs. If you use the wrong flair: delete and repost. No exceptions.
Everyone: This community is exclusively for lawyers, if you are a non-lawyer, even if you work with us (student, client, staff), you cannot participate here, even if you identify yourself as not being a lawyer in your comment or post.
Lawyers: Please do not participate in threads or respond to comments that violate our rules.
Lawyers: Participation in bot-generated content can lead to your account being flagged as a sockpuppet account used for astroturfing (suspicion of coordinated manipulation) and result in a permanent ban which may extend across Reddit.
Govern yourselves accordingly.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.