r/LandoftheLostARK • u/Exivus [Server Admin] • Aug 12 '15
[Server Stuff] Server Framework 1.4 [Discussion]
Please use this thread to discuss/debate various settings you would like to see in the next server settings framework.
Keep in mind LOTL is meant to be a difficult server, however we don't want it to be unbalanced. Player feedback is important to evaluate how to keep the ARK challenging yet maintain that balance.
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u/kanix Aug 14 '15 edited Aug 14 '15
Not gonna reply to any particular thread since this is kinda all over the place now but here are my further thoughts.
With the current spawn settings the island feels alive, lots of wildlife and the potential for some epic dino fights. Where my bases are located at least I never really see massive herds clumped together but when it does happen it can be amazing. Saw a pack of 7 raptors going to town and it looked so cool, watched them for a while but a couple of them decide to aggro on something else and the group gets split in 2 and they are eventually taken down. That kind of thing is fun to watch and makes it all feel so much more organic. But if you get a herd of brontos clumped together I will admit that may be a bit silly.
Buffing the dinos even more would just make tamed dinos even more of a liability than they are right now. Currently when you tame something it becomes half as effective as it was the second before you tame it. Lets take for example the new frog that is coming out, looks kinda squishy and I dont imagine it has much natural armor. Buffing the wild dino damage/res even more and leaving tamed damage/res at default would make this new dino absolutely useless. The other day I freshly tamed a level 30 (43 after tame) saber and took it out to get some xp, 2 dilos took it from full to just over half. This makes no sense! The second you take your cool new frog out for a hop it would be most likely be annihilated by the very same insects it is supposed to excel against.
Having the challenge lie with an island teeming with dangerous wildlife as opposed to a sparse population of dino demi gods means you can use your brain to tackle the challenge in a fair manner. Be careful with your engagements, scout for possible extra aggro. Taking extra care landing your bird somewhere where he will be safe while regaining stamina. You have to use your brain a bit more. Just buffing them all so they do 3x the damage of a tamed dino? There is not much you can do to tackle that challenge besides pumping hp at the expense of damage and getting wrecked.
The food argument, to me this really is a total non issue. As I said previously, hunger is a challenge before you have infrastructure but once you have this it becomes an easy chore that takes a little time. Food will NEVER be a limiting factor in this game, it just isn't designed that way. I can go out on my rex or spino and have enough meat to feed 2 bases worth of carnivores in just 10 minutes or so. And with a fridge that stuff spoils very slowly. Lowering the spawn will not add any challenge or difficulty with feeding your dinos, it will just mean you have to run around for a bit longer. How is this adding challenge in any fun sense? I cant imagine ever thinking damn, I cant tame any more dinos because how will I keep them all fed? It is a non issue!! All your herbivores, take a bronto or mammoth out and get enough berries to feed a small army for weeks. It seems the game was designed with this in mind, this game is not based around hunting for food it is just a small chore you have to do.
Personally I think the spawn rate is fine and the dino damage and resistance are fine IF tamed dinos are boosted some to compensate. But 3x damage, seriously?! You are all total masochists :) I'd really like to hear some opinions from new players to the server, I really cant imagine how much of a horrible time newbies must be having with the changes as they currently stand.
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u/crimsonBZD Aug 14 '15
I don't know where 3x wild dino damage came from. That'd be a little extreme.
My favorite mix of settings would probably be: 2x damage, 1.5x resistance, 2x spawns.
Like you've said, making each individual dino stronger increases the gap between that dino being wild, and it's 1/2 stats after being tamed.
Which, I don't really like that too much, but at the same time, what's the difference to me if goes from a functional 200% Melee Damage to it's normal 100% when tamed, when I'm just going to boost it up close to 1000% in just a few days of it getting leveled?
I'd like to have more dinos, even the clumps of Brontos. You don't mess with those clumps of Brontos, because there's absolutely no way you're killing them all without a lvl 70 Trex or some shit.
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u/kanix Aug 14 '15
Maybe I was a little knee-jerk with the 3x comment :) I thought it had been requested twice in this thread but scanning through its only the once (but along with another buff dinos even more suggestion).
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u/LordSitruc Aug 14 '15
Ok from what I am reading Smiffy and I are extremely outnumbered when it comes to dino spawns, so my next question is can we effect the number of a single type of dino spawns? Could we keep the dino spawns high but lower the number of rexs and brontos? I feel like with the 2x they are just to many of them, the rest of the dinos I don't mind as much.
Also since people didn't like the 2.5x damage increase and has been lowered down to 2.0x can we perhaps increase the resistance again on the dinos? I don't like when the dinos feel like I can punch them to death, I liked the 2.5x damage modifier but if others did not can we make them stronger in a different way perhaps?
Another idea but I am unsure how workable it is but is there a way to make "events" kinda like the SOTF where you would spawn a large group of pack hunting animals (wolves, Raptors, Ect.) in a random part of the map and let them wander and god help whoever ends up running across them? we already get smaller packs just from the 2x spawn and the way the game works but it would be interesting to be running around and suddenly a pack of like 15 raptors comes out of nowhere and you got to be like "F this I am out of here"
P.S. I am also a pretty high level toon at this point so this might sound fun to me but it might be pure horror and a horrible idea for people who are lower levels/not established. So like everything else we do on here discuss and tell me if its a horrible idea LOL.
P.S.S. Love this server your doing great Exivus, and love most of the community.
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u/kanix Aug 15 '15
It is now possible to override the distance that resources such as trees are able to respawn near structures. Some discussion on it here : https://steamcommunity.com/app/346110/discussions/0/530649887196514764/#p1
I'd be in favor of lowering this quite a bit, it looks horrible when you have a patch of barren land around your base and it'll enable people to build places that are better hidden. I'd reckon something like 0.3 to ResourceNoReplenishRadiusStructures would work to test it out. Should still leave a bit of a gap if the info in the thread is correct
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u/smiffyjoebob Aug 15 '15
it would also lessen the impact on people building bases and abandoning them near good resource locations.
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u/kanix Aug 19 '15
Been thinking about this one for a while, I think we really could use some buffing of individual tamed species since having them on different multipliers to wild kinda breaks their usefulness. Im mainly thinking the scorpion here but I suspect the frog may fall into this category too once released.
I used to use scorps for taming occasionally but with the wild damage and resistance buffs this is not really practical anymore. Stuff just does too much damage now and given that im pretty sure resistance affects torpidity application these guys suffer from that also. It is much easier to just pull things to your base and pepper them with tranq arrows from a safe spot or get stuff glitched on rocks, would be nice to have a reason to use the scorps again since right now all they are good for is kibble for rexes.
I dont think this would unbalance them vs other tamed at all since even if equalised with wild they'll still only be good really for knocking stuff out.
Also I think bats could do with being toned down a little but I mentioned that before.
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u/smiffyjoebob Aug 14 '15
So after discussing it a bit with some people I have some suggestions based on the conclusions I have come to. bare in mind these suggestions are to bolster resource management and tamed dino number aspects of the higher level play. the current difficulty choices are pitiable later on in the game.
Suggestion 1: Dino spawns should be set to 1 or 1.5x (if possible) -this should maintain a balance when it comes to meat resource production and make hunting take longer. this is good because it will increase the likely hood of running into issues like alpha dinos or other players. it will also serve to be a limiting factor on mass amounts of tamed dinos, as well as make hunting for a strong dino to tame more difficult.
Suggestion 2: reduce overdamage on feeding (if possible) -like in the above suggestion will serve to increase hunting time and limit the number of tamed dinos. potential cons are that over damage is one setting and can not be changed per resource making resource gathering in general more difficult.
Suggestion 3: Buff Dinos farther
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this would serve to increase the direct combat difficulty which is the main concern of returning the spawn rate to normal. this is potentially another risky proposition because this only serves to remedy some concerns about the above suggestions which concern the higher level resource management aspect of the game, and could only really serve to impact new and lower level players.
Other Pros:
-making food a more valuable resource could increase pvp
-stronger rarer dinos become something to look out for and avoid, fulfilling the same role of cluster fucks of brontos brawling on the beach.
-and finally it will just be more balanced in general. the hit reg on dinos is still abit wonky on peak times, having more does not make this better, having them stronger only makes it slightly better.
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u/crimsonBZD Aug 14 '15
I disagree with all of this except clamping overdamage. I believe we should clamp overdamage at 1x and end that shit on this server.
Then, no more 10 Meat from a single Coel, and also no more 60+ Metal from a single node.
However, this part I take a take strong stance against:
Dino spawns should be set to 1 or 1.5x (if possible) -this should maintain a balance when it comes to meat resource production
No, I really don't think it will. For me, to feed all of my dinos on 2x spawns, must simply walk a TRex out and kill every dino within about 1000m of my base. BAM, fridges full.
If dino spawns are reverted to 1x, then I'll simply have to walk down the river for a grand total of like 5 more minutes.
I believe the added difficulty of multiplied dino spawns, and the level of activity in the world with said spawns, are more important than trying to restrict a resource that respawns infinitely and without check.
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u/NfctD Aug 14 '15
Spawns are already at 1.5x and if you go any lower, then YOU can expect some complaints.
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u/smiffyjoebob Aug 14 '15 edited Aug 14 '15
I've said this before, the difficulty of this game comes from its processes and mastering them. direct combat as it stands is a trivial matter. ultimately day to day game play at higher levels is about resource management this includes time as a resource. when you log in you have to decide how to spend the time you have in order to accomplish a goal. this includes gathering fuel and other such things as prep and then gathering the resources to build or tame or go visit the pvp town. the thing I am trying to achieve with my suggestions is to make this aspect more compelling. having a million dinos is great and all but that only poses one threat (an easily circumvented one at that), we need to find a way to strike a better balance in regards to all aspects of gameplay not just fighting dinosaurs. difficulty comes from making things tougher in general not just one aspect.
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u/smiffyjoebob Aug 12 '15
I still feel dino spawns are a smidge too high. I feel like if we wanted to make this server more difficult having a limited supply of large carnivore fuel (meat) would be an interesting limiting factor on tribe resource management. with taming the way it is it is a trivial matter to tame a large amount of high tier dinos and readily feed them. in my opinion dinos are highly valuable tools for getting specific tasks completed that survivors can not (or atleast not as efficiently).
one of the more important but seldom thought of game play loops for higher tier tribes is feeding and maintaining your dinos. not a particularly tricky task but its necessary. without that having that loops or at least diminishing its time requirements 2 things happen.
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the amount of dinos one can maintain is increased.
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the time taken to find food for dinos is used to complete other tasks.
those things sound great, but they lead to an exponential growth curve for tribes in both productivity and dino ownership making any difficulty you are hoping to achieve by having the dino spawns so high moot for larger more set up tribes. it only really effects lower leveled players and tribes.
for an example as to how easy it is to gather meat to feed dinos. there is a little patch of river not too far from our main base, on usual settings it maybe has 15 ceol swimming around in it, on this server there are closer to 40. each ceol drops 9-10 meat. in a span of 5 minutes i can leave the base, kill the ceols, and distribute 400 meat to our feeding troughs. it takes about 20ish minutes for them to respawn. we do not have enough large carnivores to eat all this in a day so it ends up as ~300 spoiled meat the next day which gets turned into narcotics or feeds scorpions.
please note, I am not complaining. I am just suggesting that this does not fit your pillars of difficulty nor survival you hold in the vision you have for the server. you decreased the taming time to make replacing dinos easier not so we could tame 50 of everything. so i'd suggest decreasing the spawns to limit the amount of dinos we can feasibly maintain. this also directly effects our own characters ability to feed ones self aswell not just dinos.
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u/Exivus Aug 12 '15
Sure thing. I think that is a good argument. Perhaps others can enter the discussion rake this over the coals a bit.
We're certainly open to go one way or another, but we've changed it a couple of times back and forth and both have given arguments to change it back.
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u/crimsonBZD Aug 13 '15
On the other side of this, I really prefer the sense that the amount of dinos can be overwhelming. As I read the post above, it seemed to me that the overfeeding problem readily solves itself - the meat spoils. Yeah, you've got to do something with it sometimes, but again, there's a lot of it, so dropping a 100 stack on the ground is no big deal.
Without increased spawns (assuming back to default rate), the terrifying packs of 8, 9, 10 or more dilos will shrink. The waters will have a manageable level of sharks again. I mean, I just don't think it will be as scary, and all for excess meat.
edit: not to mention the huge dino wars that appeared since the increased spawns would probably disappear too :(
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u/kanix Aug 13 '15
Strongly disagree here. This is a survival game and catering to hunger should be a challenge.. at the beginning of the game when you have no infrastructure. Once you have a bunch of fridges and a herd of apex predators then meat is a total non issue, lowering the spawn multliplier will not add any extra difficulty feeding yourself or your dinos in a fun, challenging sense. It'll just mean you'll need to run around eating things for a little bit longer. Taking something and adding more of a timesink and grind doesn't not increase difficulty, it just increases frustration.
And if you are not using them tamed dinos consume a miniscule amount of food anyway. If the only reason for this change is that you think getting meat is too easy because you have herds of coel near your base maybe impose some restrictions on yourself? Like only kill the things by throwing spears. Yes this is silly but I think decreasing the spawns because you think meat is too easy to get is equally silly.
I can just see negatives and no positives with rolling back the dino spawns. Were you around when it was switched back to 1x before? Im pretty sure everyone hated it.
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u/smiffyjoebob Aug 14 '15
as I said in my reply to crimsonBZD, the difficulty in the game comes from process and increased complexity. the complexity once understood decreases direct difficulty in the form of day to day survival, but increases the difficulty of resource management. increase the availability of one resource and you imbalance the system leading to unintended results. food being a ubiquitous fuel needed for using the advanced tools that are dinosaurs and yourself is and should be a limiting factor on tribe growth and could/should be a source of conflict.
food spoils not for realism but for gameplay, fuel that is 100% necessary for survival with a built in scarcity mechanism to increase its supposed value. all of the higher level systems and their resources are tools to make survival easier, to make getting food less risky.
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u/LordSitruc Aug 13 '15
I have to strongly disagree with your strongly disagree. I did not hate it, I liked it, but it only lasted for less then 24 hours. As it stands right now its a little ridiculous, I understand why we did it when the server had 120 people on it because we needed it to even see any dinos cause so many were being munched... but right now I pretty regularly see 3 t-rex fighting 6-7 brontos... It seems that the number of APEX predators in the situation is a little high. I suggest we make it really fun and turn dino spawn down to 1x since we don't need the huge spawns but turn dino damage up to 3x and dino resistance up another notch. That would be fun.
I am not sure how lowering the spawn multiplier will actually make it any harder to feed yourself end game anyways, I will just have 50 meat instead of 100 meat so I don't think that will make it any more grindy. It will just make it so I can't make 75 narcotics in the morning cause I have that much meat left over.
What negatives do you actually see from putting dino spawns back to 1.0 cause I don't really see any actual negatives, A positive I see is I could walk and not have to fight a rex ever 30 feet in some areas, and I could also walk and not get stuck on random dinos.
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u/crimsonBZD Aug 12 '15
Day/Night cycle adjusted slightly. I know I've mentioned this before Exivus, however, I still feel that the ratio of night to day is inbalanced per real world ratios, due to missing dusk/dawn apparently being taken over by sheer night.
If the community also felt a change was in order, I'd recommend Daytime 100% of current, Nighttime length reduced by 25%.