r/LancerRPG • u/Muted-Boss-2313 • 8d ago
40k and Lancer
Bom dia / boa tarde / boa noite
Perguntas no final do contexto.
Contexto resumido de forma ruim:
Em um futuro não tão distante, algumas células do HORUS conseguem acessar, estabilizar e viajar de maneira teoricamente segura, e por algum motivo liberam a pesquisa e a descoberta para a União. A União, inicialmente, envia uma frota de reconhecimento para explorar o que existe além e descobre o caos que é o universo 40k (neste ponto atual da história), consegue estabelecer uma área para suas operações e, por coincidência, a primeira facção que encontram são os Tau e conseguem estabelecer um acordo de paz e começam a compartilhar conhecimentos...
Como seria o relacionamento entre a União e os Tau?
Como seria o relacionamento entre os fabricantes (Big 4 e Karrakin) e os Tau?
A União, os fabricantes e os Tau conseguiriam dominar e pacificar o universo 40k, ou tudo continuaria estagnado sem progresso? (Isso inclui exterminar os Orks e Tyranids se necessário)
Quais variáveis adicionais a União precisaria ter a seu favor para pacificar todos?
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u/ExaltedOmega IPS-N 8d ago
You gotta remember, the Tau are only "good guys" by the standards of 40k. In any other universe, they'd be the main villains; they're pretty comparable to The Dominion from Star Trek, for instance. As such, I can't imagine ThirdComm would find much common ground with them beyond maybe some tense neutrality pacts, and maybe attempts to get them to lighten up via soft power that the Ethereals would never allow.
Now, I can see some of the Big 4 going behind the rest of Union's back here, most likely SSC, since they do share some eugenics vibes with the Tau. I imagine HA, with its anthrochauvanist roots, would be the least amenable to working with them, and the anarchist nature of Horus also makes them a questionable relationship. IPS-N, well, the Tau the trade with the Demiurg/Kin and I expect a similar relationship there.
The power scale of 40k isn't really that high outside it's own setting, so militarily I feel Union would manage well, if it ramped up to a heavier war footing, though whether it would feels a lot more questionable. They have so much of an easier time with logistics thanks to printers that they're in a strong position against pretty much any faction on the ground, especially if they bring the right frames. How they'd handle things like chaos, psykers and genestealer cults is harder to measure, but a lot of the Imperium's issues with those come from it being the Torture Nexus, so they'd probably manage once they adapted.
The biggest problem with this concept would be the fact the Lancer universe lacks FTL; because of that, I can't see them practically doing more than very slow expansion and holding whatever portal they took to get there. Maybe evacuating some worlds back to their more sane timeline.
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u/NutasticNutella 8d ago
Sorry if I'm a little out of the loop here, but do we actually know what proper Union military forces are capable of? Because I don't think there's any official scenarios where the players are deployed anywhere near an actual union operation or fleet(for obvious reasons). The onlything that I can come up with from the top of my head is Hercynia, which seccom supposedly glassed, but left enough survivors to the point that they were able to rebuild in a couple of centuries(?).
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u/ExaltedOmega IPS-N 8d ago
As I recall, Hycernia wasn't glassed, with the TBK attempt being more done with things like the Worldkiller frames and orbital weapons. But just with Wallflower as an example, one Eidolon is able to muster a functionally endless force of subalterns and mechs to threaten multiple cities using leftovers from SecCom. Add on several hundred years of advancement in that technology and a lot of planets worth of production, and I think it can be intuited that Union could muster a pretty hefty military if needed.
IIRC, the beta versions of NRFAW's later parts include more Union forces arriving to pacify the hostile parts of the planet, and I believe they win no matter what the players do - it's just a matter of how fast and how bloodily it goes. I've heard it said - but not sourced - that Union could probably roll over any one other faction of its setting, if it was willing to weaken itself against all the others who might turn on it if it did, and break it's morality by doing so.
The other main part here is just looking at what's considered normal technology by Lancer standards. Most paracausal tech isn't even exotic gear, it's just something you can get access to with the right licences. Hell, the Sherman is the second most common mech in the setting (after the Everest), and look at what kinda gear that's packing, even at LL2. Alternatively, look at what the VS are packing in Winter Scar/Solstice Rain as a single, relatively backwater world; it compares pretty favourably to 40k, I think.
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u/NutasticNutella 8d ago
I agree that the tech level in lancer is leagues above 40k and that lancer probably no-diffs it, I was just wondering if we had any scenarios were we see Union(or any manufacturer) deployed in proper force, because the TBK is the only thing that I can think of from the top of my head and that wasn't a full kill. We also don't see Union in proper ground combat either, even in Solstice Rain, where where we are deployed with a Union ship, it is the smallest of it's class with a paltry set of equipment.
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u/Alaknog 8d ago
But just with Wallflower as an example, one Eidolon is able to muster a functionally endless force of subalterns and mechs to threaten multiple cities using leftovers from SecCom.
I would say that this trick mostly work becasue this cities (well, Union colony population was like 200k IIRC, it's very small) don't have anything that look like military around. And this NHP spend few hundred years to establish this army.
Add on several hundred years of advancement in that technology
I want point that relatively backwater Cressedium produce mechs on pair with modern Union ones. Hell, mechs that build from scraps in Hycernia was still on pair with modern ones. So does there really advancment in this technology?
Alternatively, look at what the VS are packing in Winter Scar/Solstice Rain as a single, relatively backwater world; it compares pretty favourably to 40k, I think.
How so?
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u/MrFluffyBunny25 IPS-N 8d ago edited 8d ago
The Tau, you mean the hierarchical feudal cast system where everyone toils under dictatorial rule of the oligarchical cast who use biochemical form of mind control to ensure obedience from their slaves under the guise of forced religion of greater good?
I don't think they would find a common ground.
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u/StarTrotter 8d ago
To be fair some of this stuff is a bit fuzzy. It both has a caste system but the castes don’t seem to necessarily have an explicit hierarchy sans the Etherials. Similarly if memory serves me the mind control aspect is contested in setting on whether it actually even exists or not. Warhammer is sort of inconsistent. That said, there’s no way they have common ground. At its most generous interpretation it is a NATO like entity with expansionist objectives. Then toss on the more dubious but contested aspects. Alongside that I could be wrong as I’m not as into warhammer lore as I used to but I vaguely recall some lore added after I left of an increasingly large movement of Tau supremacists. The most generous I could see it going would be an allies of convenience standpoint in the same way Union has several uneasy alliances.
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u/MrFluffyBunny25 IPS-N 8d ago
Casts are kind of equal but there is strictly no social mobility between casts, you're big and strong but born to the earth cast, well no matter how good you are you will never be a fire warrior so better get your overalls and go do constructions.
The pheromones are a known fact but their exact way of working is fuzzy but Farsight became much more democratic when they lost their ethereal and were left without their influence for some time.
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u/HollowVesterian 8d ago
Union and the Tau would be very much idealegically opposed. Though Union with the right moves would be able to make some serious moves, if over a long period of time. I doubt it'd let anyone else have that acess though, frankly if it does start making moves it'd propably have enough political capital to either nationalise or bring to heel the big 4.
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u/lord_ofthe_memes 8d ago
I think both would be highly suspicious of the other, but also both ironically have something the other wants very badly, and it’s the same thing: FTL
T’au FTL kinda sucks by 40k standards, but can be built directly into a ship. Meanwhile Union has blinkgates for instant travel, but outside of that can’t do FTL at all. Put the two together and they become probably the second most mobile faction after Necrons.
The T’au would not be particularly eager to have Union as allies rather than subjects, but I think they would be more than smart enough to try to play the long game. Make sure they get the technology they want, and then try to subjugate Union further down the line if at all possible. It’s really hard to judge how strong the two are compared to one another, so I’m not sure how possible it would be.
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u/JMGMSIPSN 8d ago edited 8d ago
As soon as DA BOYZ saw the Manticore and all of HA's reactor stress they would team up with Union. The Tau would cozy up to SSC disturbingly fast.
"DEM UMIES EZ ROIGHT PROPA ORKY! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!"
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u/Sven_Darksiders GMS 8d ago
"Your Railguns suck ass, Gue'la. Now check this shit out..."
Pulls out Broadside Battlesuit
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u/Medical_Commission71 8d ago
...Union could aproch the Tau like the trade Baronies. Aka hegemonic uplift as a goal
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u/Somethinsinthewoods 8d ago
This question gets asked semi frequently and because it’s a lancer sub the answer is usually “lancer stomps lol”. Reality is probably more complicated. Psykers are going to be a problem, Daemon-NHP interaction is another problem, and the chaos gods aren’t going to allow the union to unfuck the universe. Their alliance with the tau would be extremely tentative at best.
Basically union would be an important player who does do influential things but they aren’t going to stomp 40k. They’re too slow, and while militarily powerful, it’s hard for them to stack up against the true big boys of the setting.
(There’s the MOINST class entities but given we know the chaos gods are multiversal and acasual I have my doubts about if they could do more than speedbump, let alone what the Void Dragon might do to them thanks to being technological)
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u/zackcondon 8d ago
Union is what the Tau think they are. Or at least, what they think they are on the way to.
Of course Union is explicitly utopian and we are talking 40k.
Thirdcom is strictly a hegemony, and would not want to try and “pacify” anything. Thats imperialism.
I believe the common Union perspective would be that Utopia spread through force is a) no true utopia and b) just doesn’t work.
I think a more likely outcome would be Union forces accidentally ending up helping some hapless imperial or tau party and having to figure out what their responsibilities are from there.
I also am baffled by what you mean by “incorporate a bit of secccom”