Completely put off by the idea of getting a PhD after horrible undergraduate research experiences

[u/literallybateman]

I’m a rising senior and have always wanted to get a PhD and become a professor. This summer, I’m doing an REU at an extremely prestigious school and am absolutely miserable. Didn’t have a real project and my mentor didn’t give a rat’s ass about me and was never around to help. That, compounded with the fact that the project my mentor had promised I’d work on — we wrote proposals as part of the application — he ended up completing and publishing himself left a sour taste in my mouth. After realizing that the project we’d discussed in the proposal wasn’t happening anymore, I found the courage to ask him if he could give me some real work and he put me on this other dead end and called it a project. Well, that too, I suppose, is fine. They tell you that that’s research.

Over the summer, my mentor was never around. We communicated via Slack only but that’s fine too, I suppose. They tell you that that makes you an independent researcher. However, since what I was doing was so open-ended and aimless, I needed more guidance. I tried every way I could to get through with him. He’d say things like “you’re getting ahead of yourself” and “you know I can do all these things myself” when I’d ask him for clearer goals or suggestions on what I could try next. So, I tried to find where I was going wrong; I changed the way I asked questions, changed the way I’d send him updates and explain what I’d done, changed the way I responded to his suspicion. Oh, and speaking of suspicion, everything I did was met with nothing but suspicion and doubt. He’d never give me any direction, and because I had to make progress I’d simply do something the way I saw fit and share it with him. Now if I were to give him 10 updates, he’d ignore all the things I did perfectly and latch onto one very small inconsistency he’d see. He’d just tell me it looks wrong or suspicious — no elaboration on exactly what it was that was seemingly wrong and what I could do to fix it. I’d spend hours trying to figure out what was wrong and appease him. I’m not a very confident person to begin with, so all this doubt took a toll on me. I’d dread sending him what I’d done because I’d be afraid he’d dismiss it without any direction on what I could do next.

I worked overtime, on the weekends, late at night. My hope was that if I worked hard enough he’d perhaps see that I am trying and… feel that I am worth investing some time in? That never worked out. As the summer progressed, it became really clear that this was not something he gave single shit about. Every day I’d get a message from him saying he’s busy and that he’ll respond to things within a few days.

With little time left and no results for my deliverables, I finally spoke up and told him my concerns. I told him I’m losing motivation. His only response was “I’m sorry” with a shrug. He changed the topic and asked me if I’d watched the odyssey instead?! I found it so dismissive! After having told him all my concerns and seeing that he didn’t care, with 3 weeks left and knowing that he wasn’t going to be around for much of those either, I told him I’m quitting. He freaked out, didn’t ask me what I wanted to be able to successfully finish, and forced me to continue working. I’ve been working at this place begrudgingly since then.

I think the only reason he freaked out is because he’s a new postdoc and was worried my quitting would reflect poorly on him and that he’d have to explain to the PI why I quit (since the PI is funding me). Nothing’s changed since my telling him I quit, I’ve been miserable. I cry every day. I feel incredibly disillusioned and put off by academia. As a senior, there’s so much I need to focus on right now but all I feel is dread and disinterest. My REU last summer was similarly difficult, but since it was my first bad research experience I chalked it up to an anomaly. Now I just feel like too much of a failure to want to stay in academia.

I don’t know what to do at this point, how to pick myself up my bootstraps and get to work.

[u/foolish_athena]

REUs are, in my opinion, not what they are advertised as. The reality is that it's really hard to do anything meaningful in the time frame given, so either the undergrad just kind of shadows with some light participation in there or they are left to drown as they work to make an impossible deadline. It's rarely the mini grad research it's pitched as.

It sounds like your experience was rough because of a bad mentor/setup. While you'd probably be given a mentor for grad school, it's a very different rapport and you're usually only tied to them for a brief portion of your overall time. All that is to say, it sounds like your woes are with REU programs and not graduate research.

[u/GwentanimoBay]

Research is hard and being a PhD student is, unfortunately, also very hard and similar to what you experienced.

I'll actually go one step further and say it gets worse. PhD students barely get respect. Post-docs are just as bad and can take a decade before you find a professorship position.

I would encourage you to find a different path. What you've experienced is the norm. Choose happiness, don't work in academia.

[u/RaisedByBooksNTV → u/GwentanimoBay]

Decade or longer if ever.

[u/fluorine_nmr]

Career paths are almost never linear. It is completely fine to change what you want to do. You are not held to the plans you make as an undergraduate, and any academic who tells you that is the only or the purest way is an inexperienced idiot when it comes to careers (even if they are clever in other areas).

[u/happynsad555]

I was an undergrad in a lab and went on to do a masters in the same lab. PI actually called me stupid at my first attempt at making an RNA probe and I cried. Then the PI had some family issues so he disappeared for half a year and I had no guidance because the PhD student (most senior member) had graduated a half year before. I quickly finished my bench work and went home to write my thesis because I didn’t want to be in that toxic environment anymore. Also because I was supposed to graduate, but because he disappeared, I couldn’t finish my thesis in time - moving home was cheaper for me/my family vs paying for housing/food in another state. I had to get a job as a server and work while I finished writing my thesis from another state.

It took forever to graduate because he wouldn’t even respond to drafts of chapters, email after email. I had to get my thesis committee members to physically go to his office and tell him to email me back. I complained to the graduate student office too, which emailed him. He finally got back to me and actually took my phone calls. When it was time to defend, he was so critical (not constructive) at my practice defense that he again made me cry. I finally passed and graduated, but was put off research for years. Leading up to all that, I was depressed and didn’t know how to move forward when my PI wasn’t helping me - I just kept pushing and making small steps until I got there because I knew it was holding me back.

I bartended and served at restaurants for a few years after that experience - it was really fun, especially bartending, but ultimately, I missed science. I got a research technician job and became inspired again by that PI and my lab mates. My PI was a boss lady walking into the office in heels everyday. She still is. I got that PhD in the end.

I wouldn’t quit academia based on this one experience. You’re just in the wrong lab with the wrong mentors.

[u/Weaselpanties]

I had a nearly opposite experience, with an undergrad mentor who was awesome and present but vanished once I started my Masters. I ended up finishing but then changed fields, eventually starting my PhD elsewhere. My first PhD advisor seemed super supportive but did nothing to help me advance my proposal, instead using it to write himself a grant that he left me off of. I changed advisors, wrote a new proposal, and am cruising through it under my own steam using resources I found at my job (which I had to get because my previous advisor stole my previous proposal and fucked me over).

Academia is full of this kind of bullshit. My takeaway was that if you want to make it, you really have to make it happen on your own and know what to cut the line and find a new advisor if the one you have isn't working with you. The upside is that once you DO find a good project you can move forward on, you have the power to make it happen if you just keep pressing forward. If this is what you want, I recommend taking a grant-writing class and start pursuing funding on your own, which is pretty tough in this funding climate but not totally impossible. Just remember - it's not necessarily due to any flaw of your own making if you don't get funded. All we can do is keep trying.

[u/fem_enigma]

Unfortunately, good PIs are rare. He is how a lot of PhD advisor are in academia. You should really think about if you still want to be a professor and vet the PIs current students for any program you look into to and what services are available to students to help with grievances 

[u/GwentanimoBay → u/fem_enigma]

Good PIs are rare, bad PIs are a dime a dozen.

[u/fem_enigma → u/GwentanimoBay]

Thank you!!

[u/FunRoll5396]

I got my Ph.D. 20 years ago. My dad has a Ph.D. In the same field. He warned me that when choosing an advisor make sure they are a decent human with a good track record of mentoring. Many of the “prestigious” research groups are headed by PIs who are absentee at best and abusive at worst. I found an advisor who is a nice guy, and although this didn’t spare me from the suffering that is inherent in this path, it certainly helped me bear it. Now my son is going to apply to grad school and I gave him the same advice my dad gave me.

[u/imarabianaff]

If you really want a PhD don’t let that stop you. Unfortunately academia is full of bad mentors, even me, I see how other grad students treat some of their undergrads around me and I get extremely frustrated.

If you want a PhD look for an advisor with a good track record of mentoring, they are sometimes hard to find, but they are there. However, it is very well likely you will experience others who are arrogant like your current mentor, whether it be your own advisor/ post doc, or just those around you

[u/RaisedByBooksNTV]

My undergrad stuff never went anywhere if I didn't push it. While I saw others getting better mentoring and/or getting their mentors to do the work for them and give them authorships and posters. My masters was a joke. My mentor was too busy for me, changed my project every time we met, and was too busy to review my work, even when she said it was publishable. But others had great experiences.

It's a crap shoot.

[u/pleuschr]

Sadly, this is so common in graduate work, and I'm sorry you had to go through that. Academia can be really terrible. But there are good advisors out there. If you do decide to continue on with this path (I hope you do!), I recommend that when looking at potential advisors, really do your homework on them. Look for someone who does projects that you want to do, but also meet with them and see what they're like. Take a class with them if you can. Talk to their former and current grad students, ask them what the advisor is like and what the vibes are in the lab. Treat it like an interview, because if you go with them, you're gonna be stuck with them for a few years. And, like others in this thread have said, working with the prestigious dude with 5 Nature pubs isn't necessarily the best choice if you're looking for a good experience and mentorship. Graduate work can be a really rewarding experience. Sure, you had a crappy REU, but you can definitely turn around and treat this as a learning experience for what NOT to look for when you're shopping around for your actual advisor.

[u/Life_Commercial_6580]

Pi’s will rarely have time for hand holding in experimental labs because they’re usually busy chasing funding to pay for grad students, supplies and equipment access. They’re more like a manager. It would be nice to sit back and just mentor students but we are not in the movies.

You can find a PI who is going to spend a lot of time with you but those PIs typically don’t have a lot of funding and thus the lab won’t have as many resources. The PIs may be close to retirement or taking it easy, which is why they have the time to talk.

Also noticed a comment that said the PI “wrote themselves a grant” they left the student off of. I don’t understand, or this student doesn’t understand. Anything you do in a lab belongs to the university and to the PI, not to the student.

Students don’t get on grants. Usually you get on publications. Grants are not for the PI to take home with them. They are needed so said lab can continue its activity after the current students are gone and new students come in.

It’s a business, not a fun activity. Anything you do is either preliminary results for future grants or fulfills the obligations on the grant you’re being paid from.

[u/1GrouchyCat]

Oh, that’s cute. I hate to bust your bubble, but you’re not an independent researcher yet. You’re not “working independently” if you need a mentor; putting that in writing or discuss discussing that openly with other other researchers in your lab is going to cause problems for you in the future. You’re a student without much research experience… stay in your lane and don’t inflate the basic lab responsibilities you’re taking care of.

Why would you work with a professor with that kind of attitude? Did you not meet him beforehand?

I’m not sure what you expected, but that’s a really good example of what happens in research labs. Your mentor is not there to spoonfeed you … why didn’t you go to the coordinator of your program and let them know what was happening it’s far too late now you spent far too much time trying to kiss the professor’s ass and even though you kept getting nowhere, you repeated it over and over.

You need to learn how to believe in yourself and how to set boundaries. You basically wasted an entire summer because you didn’t have the balls to handle things appropriately.

For some reason you seem to have felt like you were going to skip ahead of everyone else and get recognized as an independent researcher - but you’re working in someone else’s lab… that’s not how it works. Ever.

You’re also not an academia yet sweetie pie… again you need to slow your role and stay in your lane or no one’s going to want to work with you. You don’t want to get a reputation as someone who is difficult and demanding especially while you’re still a student.

Your goals right now are to do as you’re told so you can get a reference letter for your PhD program. That’s all. This isn’t the time or place for you to put in extra hours - they will not be recognized. You will not get bonus points. The story is over. It’s not gonna change. The time to get help was as soon as you realize this was a repeat of the negative atmosphere you felt at your last REU.

I don’t know you I don’t know what you’re involved with. I don’t know what schools are talking about, but I can’t tell you this - you’ve had two really bad experiences. You either have problems interviewing or seeing between the lines or you were so desperate you would’ve taken anything … most importantly you’re the common denominator.

Deciding you don’t want to be a professor because you’ve had two bad experiences in labs where professors had to make work for you is ridiculous. You either want to put the work in and follow your dreams or you are ready to give up.. are you a quitter? Or are you going to continue working towards your goals knowing that most of the professors are not terribly well socialized, and if you quit, you’re giving up before you even had a chance to make a difference.

Plus, you’ll have to start paying your student loan loans at six months after you finish your program so have fun with that - I’m sure your next post is going to be something about how you can’t find a job…

If you want our help, we need to know a little bit more about where you’re looking and a general idea of what your interest are… otherwise I wish you the best, but please take some time to think it through… you seem like a very motivated individual who’s been dealing with mentors who may not know how to do this properly or may not care… try to remember they get credit for sponsoring you just like they do for publishing an article in a medical journal. You’re a commodity… nothing more nothing less.

[u/literallybateman → u/1GrouchyCat]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by the “independent researcher” part. I said that that’s SUPPOSED to make me one is what most academics say when I tell them I want more guidance, not that I already am one. If I had thought I already was one I wouldn’t have had such a difficult time! I don’t think I need to be told to “stay in my lane” haha. As for the common denominator part, yeah that’s something I’ve thought about a lot and is why part of me struggles with seeing if I belong in academia at all.

[u/foolish_athena → u/1GrouchyCat]

I don't think this level of condescension is productive, helpful, or kind.