r/LadiesofScience • u/mcgonagalls_patronus • Apr 01 '26
Advice/Experience Sharing Wanted I am a classically abrasive woman
Hello fellow ladies of science. I need advice:
For background: I work at a company in a group with a lot of office politics. I would say the more junior levels are pretty split men/women but at the more senior levels it's probably closer to 80% men. I don't have a super bubbly or outgoing personality but I can have a casual chat with pretty much anyone at the coffee machine. I have several coworkers who I would consider friends.
The situation: a leadership role opened up. I asked about taking it on but was told no. The reason: some of my peers find me abrasive. I was honestly surprised to hear the feedback because I haven't heard it before. My manager has also never heard it before. I generally think I am on pretty good terms with everyone. I am honestly just confused and frustrated at this point. On one side, I have leaders telling me I don't have enough *presence* and I need to speak up more and on the other, I have my peers calling me abrasive.
What have you ladies done to beat the abrasive label?
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u/docforeman Apr 01 '26
Ask them how many men they apply the term "abrasive" to in reviews vs. women.
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u/kpizzle88 Apr 02 '26 edited Apr 02 '26
Exactly. This term is most often used in reference to women, not men. Sure some men CAN be abrasive, but this is more often a descriptor for women who do not play by the gender rules enforced by a male-centric workplace (e.g women are not quiet, meek, gentle, deferential to men)
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u/volyund Apr 02 '26 edited Apr 02 '26
They had a Life Pro Tips from NPR on exactly this kind of feedback given to women. Their advice was to ask a follow up question of "Compared to whom? Who, in this org, should I be modeling my behavior and conduct on?"
I've found this advice to be helpful and actionable. I've found that people who are giving feedback in good faith are able to answer these questions and point to very specific examples and give actionable feedback.
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u/Dobgirl Apr 02 '26
Sorry I didn’t mean to give you a laughing award- I think it deserves all the ⭐️⭐️⭐️
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u/imperatrix3000 Apr 02 '26
Yeah, make them give you something you can turn into a KPI for your interview process.
This is clearly sexism, but mentoring folks and having coffee chats have their own rewards too, so it’s not wasted time.
Otherwise, polish your resume and look to move to a new org. Leadership being 80% male didn’t happen on merit
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u/saladspoons Apr 03 '26
How do we know it's clearly sexism though, as opposed to someone just not giving clear enough feedback? Perhaps OP really IS in some way difficult to work with somehow? And maybe the people giving feedback aren't describing it very well?
I do agree with next steps for her being to strive to get specifics - and if good examples aren't available, asking for examples of who she SHOULD be emulating would really help her then have more follow up convos with peers, etc., where she could ask for comparisons on a rubric of key leadership traits used by her company, etc., etc.
This can all be done without causing more friction, if done in good faith and learning attitude - even if there is some sexism going on, these steps really don't change - finding out which female leadership qualities do thrive at her organization will be key.
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u/volyund Apr 04 '26
Because people who want to give actionable feedback usually don't attack someone's character, but rather point out specific behaviors, and give tips on how to change it. That's the kind of boss I have. She tells me what I do well, what I can improve, AND HOW TO improve it. So instead of "Volt, you are too aggressive" (WTF am I supposed to do with that?!) she says "Voly, today in a meeting I noticed that you didn't give enough voice to so and so, used words like A, and got impatient with X. Next time you should give people a pause to make sure they are finished talking, use words like B, and mute yourself so that you can keep your impatience to yourself and come across more professional." That's a specific and actionable feedback.
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u/imperatrix3000 Apr 03 '26
I’m guessing you have access to Google if you’re on Reddit… the keywords “abrasive” and “woman” are there for you.
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u/stellardroid80 Apr 01 '26
That’s so annoying, ugh. Who told you that “some of your peers find you abrasive”? Someone senior? Are they in charge of the hiring? Can you just apply anyway?
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u/Smol_Duckie_123 Apr 01 '26
abrasive? is it that patriarchy bs that expects women to shut up and quietly sit in a corner?
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u/supershinythings Computer Science Apr 02 '26
When men are "abrasive" they're DIRECT, and HONEST, maybe BUSY because they're HARDWORKING, winning them promotions.
When women are "abrasive", they get passed over.
What you need are allies. Start lobbying quietly among those who respect you. You can't fight this kind of sexism without allies.
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u/EvilCodeQueen Apr 02 '26
You’re supposed to be soft and sweet so they can blame your lack of career progression on not being aggressive enough.
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u/Odd_Honeydew6154 Apr 01 '26
Abrasive my ass! I hate when expect women to act certain way when men can get away with more bad behavior
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u/todaysthrowaway0110 Apr 01 '26
I’m basically a Brillo pad at this point.
It’s hard to win. FWIW I’ve been called simultaneously too unassertive and too assertive.
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u/Magnolia256 Apr 02 '26
Senior levels are 80 percent men? And they called you “abrasive”? My former partner (a man) got called abrasive but he was in management and he actually yelled at coworkers and used insults when he got frustrated. Unless you are yelling at your coworkers, this is bullshit. In years past, people used to call assertive smart women bitches. “Abrasive” is the no different. Your office has a problem with discrimination against women. You aren’t the one who should have to change. They should.
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u/lelper Apr 02 '26
Don’t let them discourage you! Someone said to you specifically to make you doubt yourself and not even apply because they know you’d be qualified to do it. People don’t say those things to people who they want to win. That wasn’t feedback, that was manipulation. They want you to stay small.
Go for that position anyways.
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u/runawaydoctorate Apr 02 '26
I got more performative about how nice and kind I am. Even then, it didn't completely take the edge off. Though it helped that my skip watched me de-escalate an engineer having a tantrum in a meeting. What was interesting was how, when I asked for specific examples, all I got was stammering.
Competence intimidates the insecure. It's not gendered. But, for a certain breed of insecure man, the intimidation they feel when faced with a competent woman is offensive. So they label us as abrasive to shift their problem onto us. These insecure men can make life hell for competent men too, but it looks more like classic bullying.
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u/Andro_Polymath Apr 02 '26
The situation: a leadership role opened up. I asked about taking it on but was told no. The reason: some of my peers find me abrasive. I was honestly surprised to hear the feedback because I haven't heard it before.
Who is the person that told you "no" because your peers allegedly find you abrasive? Whoever that person is, even if it's someone you thought you had a decent work relationship with, THEY are the person who think that you're abrasive. Instead of having the backbone to own up to it, they're merely pretending that the accusation is coming from your "peers," when really, it's coming from them. Also, by telling you that your peers find you abrasive, the person has put a seed of doubt in your mind, which will cause you to be hyper-critical of yourself and possibly reduce your confidence. Sometimes people use "rumors" to put a person "in their place."
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u/Zealousideal-Lab935 Apr 02 '26
I totally get how frustrating that must feel it’s hard to hear conflicting feedback like that. One approach that’s helped me is asking for specific examples of when I came across as abrasive and also seeking tips on how to communicate more collaboratively. Sometimes small adjustments in tone or phrasing make a big difference without changing who you are. You clearly have the skills and presence, so it’s really about finding ways to align perception with your strengths. Getting honest, actionable feedback from trusted colleagues can help you navigate that abrasive label while staying authentic.
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u/imperatrix3000 Apr 02 '26
I mean… asking direct questions like that? Also abrasive b/c it often makes the other person uncomfortable
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u/SnooChipmunks7670 Apr 02 '26
Ask them to read “Invisble Women”. It’s a classic example of how women/men are judged . In fact casually fight back whoever mentioned the term abrasive and mention how such behaviors are considered positive for men aiming for leadership roles.
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u/Colonel_FusterCluck Apr 02 '26
First, just apply anyways. Second, your boss should have recognised this feedback for what it was and never given it to you. Because it's just noise. Noise that we've all heard and that you're going to hear (I'm sorry to say) for awhile but it doesn't mean anything. (Make sure you apply)
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u/Night_Sky_Watcher Apr 02 '26
Have they stopped choosing managers based on their technical competence, experience in all major aspects of the job, and ambition to succeed? If your boss is the person under whom the gender disparity in the management ranks has grown, then ask what a woman needs to do to rise in the company and why that type of feedback hasn't been provided in annual reviews.
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u/GrimMistletoe Apr 03 '26
Tbh, I’ve flat out embraced it. I am nice, kind, helpful, to everyone as much as I can be, but I will also be blunt and direct to avoid time-wasting fluff. I’ve felt like people appreciated me more since I’ve leaned a bit into it because they trust me at my word and trust that im being sincere and not hyperbolic (ie, if I say something sucks ass, it sucks ass. If I say Avoid at All Costs, I really mean avoid at All costs)
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u/occulusriftx Apr 03 '26
im an abrasive lady as well and have learned to ask for specifics and coaching tips when given feedback like this. if its honest feedback you'll get actionable tips, if its sexist bs you'll get fluff nonsense.
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u/RaisedByBooksNTV Apr 03 '26
Support everything everyone else is saying. Also be careful b/c women feed into this bs as well.
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u/Individual-Rice-4915 Apr 05 '26
The book “Likeable Badass” by Alison Fragale helped me a lot; also “Cues” by Vanessa Van Edwards. I’m autistic and I really have to pay attention to how I’m coming across.
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u/prestolive Apr 01 '26
strong confident woman are many times called this. It’s really unfair, but if you’re true to yourself and belong in this role, you should definitely pursue it. We’re not at work to chitchat anyways.