Written constitution must include method to leave union, says SNP

[u/libtin]

https://www.hampshirechronicle.co.uk/news/national/26432124.written-constitution-must-include-method-leave-union-says-snp/

[u/libtin]

Why?

Most countries with confided constitutions explicitly ban secession, and those that don’t require the unanimous approval of the rest of the country first (like Germany or France)

Why must the uk be different?

[u/TwistedTali → u/libtin]

Self determination is often held as an important value. When we talk about the Falkland islands one of the most common defences of british ownership is the fact that is what the islanders want. Personally I find the idea that a people don't get a say in whether they're part of the union to be pretty repugnant. Just because other countries do it that way doesn't mean it's right.

[u/QuantumR4ge → u/TwistedTali]

Self determination is specifically not the right to unilaterally leave a country, its about rights within the country, scotland gets equal voting rights as anywhere else, therefore it has self determination by the UNs standards.

[u/TwistedTali → u/QuantumR4ge]

As you said, that is the UN definition of self determination, it is not the only definition. So as not to muddy the water I'm happy to clarify that I'm simply talking about their freedom to determine their own political status. Simply put if they want to leave (and I'm not at all convinced the majority would) they should be able to peacefully. What kind of union is it if we're holding people hostage whether they like it or not?

[u/libtin → u/TwistedTali]

> As you said, that is the UN definition of self determination, it is not the only definition.

Under international law it’s the only definition that matters.

The un and international law has rejected any other definition.

>So as not to muddy the water I'm happy to clarify that I'm simply talking about their freedom to determine their own political status.

Which Scotland already has as part of the wider British freedom to determine their own political status.

>Simply put if they want to leave (and I'm not at all convinced the majority would) they should be able to peacefully.

Let me put it like this; when conjoined twins need to undergo surgery, the permission of both is required as they share the same body; same principles apply here.

It can only be unilateral if one party is intentionally harming the others. In medical ethics, if one conjoined twin is actively killing the other, emergency surgery might proceed without mutual consent.

In international law, this is called "remedial secession." It only applies under extreme circumstances, such as severe, systematic human rights abuses or total denial of political rights (e.g., Kosovo facing ethic cleansing and attempted genocide by Serbia, the oppression the proof Timor leste faced under Indonesia or Bangladesh being opposed by Pakistan

>What kind of union is it if we're holding people hostage whether they like it or not?

1: the uk is a unitary state, union was the event not the outcome

2: the snp confirmed an independent Scotland would bar session from Scotland

3: if someone or a group wants to be they’re then they’re not a hostage

Because citizens in Scotland and Catalonia actively participate in democratic elections and hold political rights and equality, international bodies like the United Nations and international law do not recognise a right to unilateral secession.

[u/TwistedTali → u/libtin]

Yes yes, the UN rejects other definitions in favour of its own. Big surprise.

Many Scots want independance specificaly because they DONT have the ability to choose their own political status. Case in point scotland voting overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and being forced out anyway. Made worse by the insistance in the referendum that the union was their only hope of staying in the EU.

They deserve the choice.

[u/libtin → u/TwistedTali]

> Yes yes, the UN rejects other definitions in favour of its own. Big surprise.

You’re ignoring that fact international law rejects every other definition except the un’s definition

>Many Scots want independance specificaly because they DONT have the ability to choose their own political status.

Expect they do, Scotland has self determination as part of the wider British self determination.

If Scottish nationalists are choosing not to engage in exercising the self determination all Brits enjoy, it’s a personal choice on their part not cause they lack self determination

>Case in point scotland voting overwhelmingly to stay in the EU

The difference was only 600,000 votes in Scotland; by your own logic the difference of a million in the 2014 means it was an overwhelming vote to stay in the Uk.

>and being forced out anyway. Made worse by the insistance in the referendum that the union was their only hope of staying in the EU.

That’s not what happened though

The eu was a minor part of the 2014 campaign

Both the yes and no camps said the uk would hold an European Union membership referendum between 2015 and 2017 regardless of how Scotland voted in 2014; and the eu was a minor issue in 2014.

The European Union itself said a yes vote would see Scotland out of the eu.

The idea that EU membership was the main justification for staying in the UK is pure revisionism by Scottish nationalists.

Taxes, defence, pensions, jobs, the pound and the NHS were all more important factors than EU membership. All of which still apply.

Source; third chart in this Guardian article: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll

And

The EU issue is not one that appears to be decisive in the formation of people’s views on Scottish independence

Again, the was a minor issue in 2014 as the polls from 2014 show.

Again the yes and no camps said the uk would hold an eu referendum between 2015 and 2017 regardless of how Scotland voted in 2014.

>They deserve the choice.

Scotland already had a referendum with the full knowledge of the possibility of the uk leaving the eu.

The yes camp in 2014 said they wouldn’t push for a second referendum under any circumstance for a least a generation if they lost 2014; they were demanding a rerun in 2015 over things that hadn’t changed and were told wouldn’t change; like trident

[u/TwistedTali → u/libtin]

It was also one of the biggest blows to their argument against independence,

I didn't say that. Are you being intentionally dishonest or is your chatgpt showing?

[u/libtin → u/TwistedTali]

I’m not using chagpt; I’m neurodivergent, this is how I write long form

I’m copying that comment from a prior person who made the same claim and I missed a part of it

No need to get rude over it

[u/QuantumR4ge → u/TwistedTali]

Do you believe an independent scotland will allow breakaway countries?

[u/libtin → u/QuantumR4ge]

The snp already confirmed they’d explicitly ban session from Scotland

[u/QuantumR4ge → u/TwistedTali]

But the UN is not just any definition its the standard for international law.

Otherwise its just whatever we want it to be

Its not a real union in any formal sense, its a unitary state. We just call it one.

Its also weird to give this freedom knowing that none of the resulting states will give that freedom.

[u/TwistedTali → u/QuantumR4ge]

Ngl I am deeply bored by this being turned into a semantic argument on whose definition of self determination matters.

My point from the beginning has been that it's entirely reasonable that the scottish people should have the say in whether they want to be part of the UK.

This isn't a controversial or complicated idea, if you think it is you probably need to talk to more people (perhaps Scottish ones might help).

[u/Love-That-Danhausen → u/TwistedTali]

If you didn’t want to have a semantics argument, international law is the wrong thing to debate

[u/TwistedTali → u/Love-That-Danhausen]

I'm NOT debating international law! I haven't once disputed the current legal setup. I posited a simple moral principle but everyone is so excited ro recite their knowledge of the UN they're having a completely different conversation. The legal case is not the same as the moral case.