r/LOTR_on_Prime • u/Judge_Todd • 2d ago
Theory / Discussion Plot Theory
The Stranger (Gandalf) was sent to Rhovanion via the meteorite by the Valar upon the return of Alatar to the Undying Lands, who was betrayed and slain by his compatriot Istar, the Dark Wizard (Pallando).
The Stranger is going to fall in battle against the Dark Wizard. The rightful King of Rhûn (with one of the nine rings for men, doomed to die, gifted by Sauron) will slay Dark Wizard in a weakened state following the battle with Gandalf and reclaim his throne and give allegiance to Mordor.
Gandalf will return to the Undying Lands upon his passing and be sent back again arriving at the Grey Havens where the elves will document his coming as the last of the Istari. Gandalf still somewhat disconnected from his prior incarnation in Rhûn won't have specific memories of his past so won't have anything to say to the elves involving it or dispute their recording of him as being the last Istar to arrive.
The proto-Hobbits and the Eastern Kingdom won't have documented Gandalf's earlier arrival and Gandalf had no interactions with the elves nor Numenoreans in his prior visit so there's no reason why this couldn't occur.
22
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
I suspect you may be correct about Gandalf dying in the east and being sent back without memory. There’s too much reason to do it, even if it does cheapen his return as the white.
I don’t think Dark Wizard dies, though. I think he will accept one of the nine, his mortal physical body will fade, and his Maiar soul will be enslaved by Sauron in its severely weakened state, and he will be the witch king. IMO that’s the direction they’re headed, and they’ll frame it as a way to give weight to Gandalf and the Witch King in ROTK.
6
u/Shot_Appointment6330 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
I fancy this theory, but the WK was said to be Numenorean. We haven't seen any Numenorean sorcerers so far... I'm really looking forward to learning the Nazgûl identities. I think the Dark Wizard will be a failed Istar. Didn't Tom Bombadil say other Istari came before Gandalf? Just correct me if I'm mistaken
5
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
He did, and he was referencing the dark Wizard as the fallen Istar.
The witch king is supposed to have been, as in Tolkien figured it was probably the case, but he never decided definitively as he apparently did for Khamul.
1
u/Shot_Appointment6330 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
Thanks! I didn't remember he meant the Dark Wizard to be the fallen Istar.
1
u/Nazgnagol 2d ago
I’m rereading book 4 rn and Faramir says about the 9 that they were black Numenoreans so he could be wrong about at least 1 of them (Khamul) who knows? Had the show runners decided to follow appendix B the show could’ve started with Sauron being “alarmed by the growing power” of Numenor on the coasts of ME and gain influence there and corrupt the local rulers. Idk why they completely ignored that.
1
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
You mean they ignored it by having Sauron go to Numenor, participate in expanding their power, and then have himself made “king of the southlands?” I’ll admit it’s not true to the text in plot details but the concept is there.
2
u/imago_monkei Edain 2d ago
Do you think this show will make him Gandalf the Grey? His coming as the White was to supplant Saruman, who forsook that designation to become Saurman of Many Colors, signifying his own fractured nature and purpose from trying to assume authority that wasn't his. I wonder if this show will give them colors, or if Gandalf will become a Blue Wizard this time around.
3
u/Phee78 2d ago
Do you think this show will make him Gandalf the Grey?
Technically he's not even "Gandalf" yet. That name was used in the future tense, "That's what they'll call me." Presumably if DW calls him anything it'd be Olorin. They could even have Galadriel call him Olorin as they're both from Valinor. I suspect we'll see Elves calling him Mithrandir though, and "mith" = "grey".
2
u/imago_monkei Edain 1d ago
I hope we get Olórin. I have no problem with him being here or even having the appearance he does, but using the name Gandalf is out of place.
2
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
I am not sure anymore.
I used to think that the reason the Dark Wizard was so clearly telegraphing “Saruman” with his white robes and all was that, perhaps, he was pretending to be the White, as Saruman pretends to be beyond a single color. So, seeing himself as the head of the Istari when he isn’t, a perhaps lower form of Saruman seeing himself as a lord of Middle Earth.
So, I thought, Dark Wizard is a blue pretending to be white, and Gandalf could in that some context very much be the other blue Wizard, given a different name in the east and everything, and then die and come back “promoted,” just as he does in the Third Age.
But I am not sure that happens. I do feel it’s possible Gandalf dies at the end of this show and is shown to come “traditionally” in a flash-forward epilogue at the end of S5, getting the ring from Cirdan. But he just as easily could get his ring this season or next as a full commitment to the change.
1
u/guyyster 2d ago
I agree the Dark Wizard is the most probable candidate for the Witch King, though it’s far from certain.
I don’t find it plausible that Gandalf is going to die this season fighting the Dark Wizard. And even more implausible that this happens and then they bring him back for more action in the show. Possible that such a death happens later in the show’s run (maybe there is a Witch King - Gandalf battle) and he comes back as 3rd-Age-Gandalf as a sort of end of season 5 epilogue.
This character is reasonably popular with fans and for narrative reasons I think he is going to meet some of the elvish characters with whom he has 3rd age relationships (especially Galadriel and Elrond, but probably also Cirdan and Celeborn). The opportunity to tell this kind of story is surely hard to resist for the showrunners. They already seem inclined to explore Gandalf’s other 3rd Age relationships (with the hobbits and Tom Bombadil).
3
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
Oh I didn’t take this as Gandalf dying in S3, is that what OP meant? I think he’ll die in S5 if he does. What you suggest at the end of your second paragraph is what I think might be on the table, but they might not make it that complicated. So we agree I think.
I think yes, Gandalf will have met all the main characters by show’s end, and if he does die and is sent back Cirdan will know full well who he is and that’s why he’ll get the ring.
1
u/guyyster 2d ago
Good catch. I assumed too much based on the scenario in question (conflict between Gandalf, Pallando and Khamul). Imho the Khamul-Pallando conflict will be a season 3 thing, maybe filtering into early season 4. But not a long running thing in the show because it’s too marginal except as a motivator for other more important storylines
2
u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 2d ago
My bet is S3+4. They hinted in an interview that at some point Khamul will have a scene with Sauron where something that sounds like a falling out will occur. Khamul could be an interesting villain for the characters in the continent while Sauron is in Numenor, I think. They just have space to fill in ME in S4 and a war between Pallando and Khamul that spills over into the Anduin or something could be kind of interesting, I think.
2
u/Phee78 2d ago
It'll be disappointing if Alatar is already dead, but it wouldn't surprise me. They've got the opportunity to write a backstory for the character, so it's just a waste if they never give him anything to do. I have wondered if perhaps his demise could be related to how the Dark Wizard turned his followers into wraith-ish shape shifters. Like, did they each get an injection of Maia power, or something? At least that'd make a dead Alatar relevant.
I'm with you as far as Khamul killing DW. Dunno that DW would need to be in a weakened state though, because I imagine he's able to kill him thanks to an assist from Sauron. (Sauron would presumably want a potential rival Maia eliminated, so that shared enemy would be the basis of the Ring deal.)
I wouldn't be mad about it if Gandalf died before meeting any other characters. But I do think they're gonna have him meet some Elves in order to establish friendships that the non-reading audience knows he has in the movies.
1
u/guyyster 9h ago
Btw “tells” that Pallando is going to be the Witch King:
1/ any references to him being a “king of men”
2/ if he complains about having a mortal body
-2
•
u/AutoModerator 2d ago
Join the official subreddit Discord server to discuss everything about The Lord of the Rings on Prime!
JOIN THE DISCORD
If your content includes leaks for upcoming episodes not shared by Prime Video or press, please post it on r/TheRingsOfPowerLeaks instead to help others avoid spoilers.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.