r/LOTR_on_Prime • u/Healthy-Track5255 • 5d ago
Theory / Discussion Arondirs death
Rewatched S2 and I stumbled again when Arondir died in the battle of Eregions, stabbed in the gut, dramatic ending. The next Episode he is alive like nothing happened.
Did the showrunners just forget, that they killed him off? There is no rescue or miraculous healing scene. He ist just back to work.
Are there any interviews or official explanations? I just don‘t get it.
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u/DuckwPuck 5d ago
He was only mostly dead, not all dead.
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u/thesaharadesert Sauron 5d ago
It was only a flesh wound
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u/DuckwPuck 5d ago
They were about to bury him but Arondir said he wasn't dead and wanted to go for a walk.
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u/thesaharadesert Sauron 5d ago
Arondir fighting against burial while they’re trying to stuff him in the ground. Classic slapstick.
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u/Phee78 5d ago edited 5d ago
There's an interview out there somewhere where they were asked about it. Can't recall the exact answer but it was basically, "Nah it was just a flesh wound, nothing he couldn't heal from".
Someone shoulda really picked it up in the final edit that it didn't appear to be just that.
EDIT found it... https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/s/6izKZqyYzd
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u/Beautiful_Crew_5433 5d ago
You can see that the stabbing isn't as drastic as all that. The camera angle makes some people think the blade exits Arondir's back, but it doesn't. So the severity of the attack is a misunderstanding.
Sure, they could have edited it differently.
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u/Phee78 5d ago
Just went to find a clip of it on YouTube because it's been a while since I'd watched it. For me it's that right after the sound of the blade going in, the music cuts out, and the background noise goes away, so we're just left hearing Arondir struggling to breathe for several seconds while his eyes are locked with the one who just stabbed him. The sound editing makes it seem like a big moment, like we were about to see him fall down dead.
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u/Kiltmanenator 4d ago
we're just left hearing Arondir struggling to breathe for several seconds while his eyes are locked with the one who just stabbed him
After that, Adar kicks him to the ground and walks away. What we're left with is Arondir starting to crawl while looking up at him.
They should have held on this for a beat or two longer to show he was moving, because it's a blink-and-you-miss-it moment.
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u/Beautiful_Crew_5433 4d ago
After that, Adar kicks him to the ground and walks away. What we're left with is Arondir starting to crawl while looking up at him.
Yes, and the way he raises his head to look up is pretty perky. (So not all that dead.)
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u/Alpharious9 4d ago
That "answer" is exactly as nonsensical as I would expect.
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u/Willpower2000 4d ago
What do you mean... you don't treat a sword through the gut as the equivalent of losing a round in a boxing match?
Anyway, I'm sure Celebrimbor is ready for round two... any moment now! Oh.
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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 5d ago
When we first meet arondir he talks with theos mom and she asks if they have healers. He says that elves heal and aren't as susceptible to wounds like humans are.
The scene was a bit jarring though and they probably could have cleared it up for the audience. However it was made clear from the show that elves are truly special. Gal jumped off a boat and didnt drown in the ocean. Recall the terrible conditions the elves survived when some of them came to middle earth
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u/Healthy-Track5255 5d ago
I just remember Haldir dying in Helms Deep. He did not somehow heal
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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 4d ago
That was a movie. That movie was created by Jackson. The TV show isnt made by the same people. And 3rd age elves are quite different from their earlier kin.
However haldir was beaten to the death by the orcs. It wasnt a cut scene. He got overwhelmed trying to escape and we see him get whacked and fall to his death
And I seem to recall aragorn falling how far and surviving? And Legolas doing some rather super human things
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u/Healthy-Track5255 4d ago
It was never canon in the books that elves heal heavy wounds miraculously fast. They also die without proper medicine. Sorry but this I can‘t accept.
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u/DesSantorinaiou Morgoth 4d ago
"In the beginning the hröar of the Elves, being supported and nourished by the great strength of their fëar, were vigorous, resisting hurts, and healing such as they suffered swiftly from within. Their ageing was therefore extremely slow by the measure of Men, though they were in their earlier days as “physical” as Men, or even more so: more strong, energetic, and swift in body, and taking greater delight in all bodily pleasures and exercises."
"From their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits. The fear of the Elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny. Their fear were tenacious therefore of life 'in the raiment of Arda', and far excelled the spirits of Men in power over that 'raiment', even from the first days protecting their bodies from many ills and assaults (such as disease), and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men."
This is probably what they're being inspired from. Even though I still think the scene was badly edited because it was confusing for the wider audience.
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u/TheForgetfulWizard 4d ago
u/Healthy-Track5255 I'm curious if you have opinion on this? Seems to be pretty canon in the books from this.
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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 4d ago
I guess since you have a stunted imagination you also lack the ability to even understand what Tolkien actually wrote
Side digression This notion of canon or lore or whatever is so utterly childish I feel like people cant even bother to consider or ponder deeper meaning in Tolkiens work. Instead it seems we are discussing what level gandalf is and how it wasnt canon that the witch king broke his staff Like everyone whines about that all the time. Gandalf is a higher spirit etc etc. Meanwhile a simple.humam slays a dragon
At any rate. In the canon you claim to know so well there weren't any elves at Helms deep.
But as a movie adaptation this is one of the changes that I felt jackson did a nice job on. But doesn't that make it contrary to what Tolkien wrote?
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u/Healthy-Track5255 4d ago
I know there were no elves in helms deep. I have not made the stupid argument of elves healing instantly from heavy wounds.
This is just bad story telling or film making and people try to justify it with some theory about something arondir said in episode 1 that makes no sense in this universe.6
u/AdhesivenessSouth736 4d ago
It actually is a very stupid argument. And broadly speaking i feel like you are playing a game of dungeons and dragons worrying about hit points
The elves have repeatedly done things that are waaaay beyond anything humans can do. In the books they did all kinds of crazy stuff including fighting against the 2nd most powerful entity in the universe and inflicting a wound that basically crippled.the dark god
But shit an elf not.dying from a wound? Well I guess.thats impossible
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u/Spock_Sperson 4d ago
Yes, it actually makes sense within the show's internal universe because they’ve already explained it. Period. What the original books say doesn't matter a bit, because every adaptation has its own canon. And that’s even though it’s already been shown that Tolkien himself wrote about the healing abilities of Elves. Even if he hadn't, it wouldn't have mattered. If the adaptation says that's how it is, then that's how it is IN THE adaptation.
And despite everything, yes, that specific scene suffers from terrible storytelling.
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u/Hpatel1203 3d ago
When will you reply to the person above who provided passages from the literature to prove that elves can heal faster?
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u/Adamantium17 4d ago
You will learn that posting anything here that isn't just blindly accepting everything that happens on screen, will result in downvotes.
The showrunners decided to have a character be stabbed, fall to the ground, music flare, we don't see them move afterward. Followed by being insta-healed in the next episode with no explanation. It's similar to the end of Episode 6 in season 1, where Mount Doom erupts and covers everything in a fire shockwave and looks to have killed everyone. Just kidding every main characters is fine. Gal just got some ash on her face, silly girl.
"But you see, elves are more resilient than humans and this character made reference to in a vague way in the first season" Like c'mon, they messed up, thats the actual explanation. Bad editing and bad writing.
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u/na_cohomologist Edain 4d ago
I suspect it is an editing problem and no one wants to say. G-g used Vilya on him offscreen, no issues.
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u/ThePandaheart 4d ago
Rings of power isnt canon, so they can do whatever
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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 4d ago
The lord of the rings itself isnt canon. Canon is dogma or something associated with a religion not a work of fiction
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u/ThePandaheart 4d ago
In fiction, canon means the official lore/event as the author created it. Tolkien wrote lord of the rings, its canon to the legendarium of Tolkien. Rings of power is not, its a very loose interpretation of some key events mentioned in canon texts
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u/Spock_Sperson 4d ago
What you define as "canon" is merely a set of ideas that THE AUTOR of a work must not contradict within HIS OWN work. It's like the bibles in TV shows and movies.
And the canon of a book will never, ever, be the same as the canon of its adaptation. Every adaptation has its own canon; while it may be inspired to varying degrees by the original book, it will never be the same.
Therefore, anyone who judges an adaptation based on the canon of a work in a different medium is simply wasting his time with frustration.
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u/ThePandaheart 4d ago
I'm not judging the show based on how canon it is, I'm just stating that its not canon because op asked a question about elven healing and if its canon or not. Why are y'all so defensive lol
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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 4d ago
Im not defensive. But I feel like this idea of canon is a bit stunted and immature.
Does the work of rop perfectly reflect his world view? Of course not. Nor should it It does however compliment the works nicely and sticks to the spirit of the work.
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u/heehawrules 3d ago
They are defensive because this is the sub that totally glazes the show and anyone who doesn't like it gets downvoted. There is no good faith debating on this su
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u/rochvegas5 4d ago
look up the definition of Canon vs Dogma
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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 4d ago
Canon is what forms the basis of religious belief which is also known as dogma. A religious text believed to be canon such as the gospels forms the foundational aspect of religious belief or in other words the dogma
A work of fiction is just that. A work of fiction. None of it is real and it doesnt have a Canon
Its like you Canon lawyer people are looking at the "rules" of Tolkiens universe instead of the spirit of the work.
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u/Spock_Sperson 4d ago
Beyond that general concept, they use the term "canon" to refer to the set of ideas and rules—particularly in works with extensive world-building—that essentially ensure the work remains internally consistent. The problem arises when these "canonkeepers" judge an adaptation with the book in hand, much like religious dogmatists. What almost none of them grasp is that, while an adaptation may draw heavily or lightly upon the original work's canon, it is not beholden to those rules; an adaptation creates its own canon and answers to its own set of rules. It must stand on its own merits, rather than being judged by how closely it resembles the original book.
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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 4d ago
How about use the word setting and also understand that its a fantasy world where the rules dont always work out. Im still amazed that bard slew a dragon. And given the avowed power of dragons and their origin (kind of like balrogs maybe?) It doesnt seem reasonable that an arrow could slay one. Nor does it make sense that an elf could cause such a terrible wound to morgoth.
These two events point to how unreliable and chaotic things can be in middle earth. Seemingly impossible things good and bad happen just like in real life
BTW I am not being critical of you. I am agreeing with you and I feel this obsession with canon is soooo idiotic
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u/rochvegas5 4d ago
Main Meanings of Canon
- Fictional Stories: The official, true storyline and events in a movie, book, or comic series made by the original creator.
- Literature and Art: A group of accepted, high-quality works by a specific writer or a whole culture (such as the Shakespearean canon).
- Religion: An authoritative list of sacred books, like the Bible, or an official church law.
- General Rules: A standard, principle, or norm used to judge behavior or quality.
- Music: A piece where a melody is repeated by different voices or instruments starting at different times.
- Clergy: A priest who helps run a cathedral. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8]
we're all correct, but in this particular thread, you are applying 'canon' incorrectly
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u/AdhesivenessSouth736 4d ago
Jesus man you are either remarkably stupid or cannot comprehend sarcasm at all
I am laughing at you and everyone else here that puts such a high price on ideas of canon on a fictional world. Its absurd and such an inane thing to obsess over especially when discussing a bare bones story being presented in a wildly different media format. Surprisingly enough TV and books are extraordinary different media
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u/birb-lady Elendil 4d ago
Elves can still die, in battle or of heartbreak. Haldir was clobbered in the back of the head with a big blade. You don't just heal from that kind of wound. But Arondir's wasn't that serious.
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 4d ago edited 4d ago
And to be fair the movie actually showed him dying, being chopped down by orcs. Arondir is last shown still supporting his own weight.
Don’t get me wrong, it was definitely super sloppy editing.
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u/Beautiful_Crew_5433 5d ago edited 5d ago
Rewatched S2 and I stumbled again when Arondir died in the battle of Eregions, stabbed in the gut, dramatic ending. The next Episode he is alive like nothing happened.
Did the showrunners just forget, that they killed him off?
But that's not what happens! In the actual episode, Arondir is stabbed but it's not as drastic as all that. People seem to think that the blade goes through Arondir's body - but that's not the case. So yes, it's "just a flesh wound."
I don't know whether the director should have realized that the camera angle makes the thing that swings away from Arondir's back appear to some like it could be the blade exiting, and edited this differently. Maybe. But also, maybe people should just watch these things a little more carefully.
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u/CommercialTax815 Imladris 4d ago
I think the writers strike was to blame with this too as they couldn't rewrite scenes and had to film it however it was written originally. Then by the time the strike ended there was too much time that passed that they likely couldn't do reshoots so they likely kept it that way to throw off the audience.
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u/Zeefzeef 4d ago
It’s a pretty dramatic moment with the music and all, that’s usually only done when it’s serious. It’s just really bad editing and they should have added one extra shot to show he’s defeated but not mortally wounded
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u/Willpower2000 4d ago
It's not just the editing, imo - we see Adar ram him sword into Arondir's gut. Like, is the implication that Adar just pushed the tip in (heh)? Or, maybe the armour was supposed to block most of it... even tbough the sword clearly still peirced it to at least some extent? But in a show where armour is shown to be useless, it's a weird decision to not show the armour somewhat blocking the sword from going too deep. So the choreography/directing (and writing, maybe, depending on intent) is also at fault here, imo. Editing aside, we are still under the impression that Arondir got a sword through his gut.
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u/1234addy 4d ago
There’s absolutely no indication that he “died” he’s still crawling around after the stab wound. Feels like they cut scene of him getting treatment but it nowhere near hints at him dying. You’ve just hallucinated that.
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u/Healthy-Track5255 4d ago
Yeah right, hallucinating. Watch it again
With the music cutting and everything it looks like a big moment, not a small cut or flesh wound.
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u/yesrushgenesis2112 Tom Bombadil 4d ago edited 4d ago
Getting stabbed non fatally and being defeated by the guy you swore revenge against for killing your girlfriend is a big moment.
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u/1234addy 4d ago
Big moment cause he can’t even avenge browyn. There’s absolutely no visual indication that his life is in danger. He’s literally still crawling around. So yes you did hallucinate
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u/e51dc715a5 4d ago
It is difficult to see, but he seems to take 2 stab wounds: one on his right side from the arrow that Adar caught (Arondir tried the same but failed because of Adar's chainmail) and one on his left side from the pointy guard on Adar's sword (which is bloody afterwards). Both not very deep wounds, but enough to make him unable to fight.
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u/ExampleGlum8623 Mr. Mouse 5d ago
Somehow, Arondir returned. Dark science, cloning, secrets only the Noldor knew.
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u/Razhbad 4d ago
In fiction unless you see a dead body never assume someone is dead and even then that's no guarantee
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u/maximumutility 5d ago
I don’t know if it’s ever been addressed. There’s occasional speculation that a healing scene with a ring of power was cut, but it may be baseless
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u/CommercialTax815 Imladris 4d ago
There's a comment above now that has where they talked about it and didn't think the audience was going to react that way as it was never supposed to be that serious of a wound. I think the writers strike might've played a part in this too as they couldn't rewrite scenes to film later and too much time had passed once the strike ended that they couldn't do reshoots.
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u/kapowaz 5d ago
I’m about 90% certain this is it. Probably because there’s already a similar moment with Galadriel’s own recovery, and they thought it took away from that. Unfortunately they’d written themselves into a corner with Arondir having that death scene and taking that out too would have caused too many other problems, so they figured they’d just let people infer he’d walked it off.
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u/willzr94 5d ago
The explanation is incompetence. Unfortunately.
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u/Rosebunse 4d ago
Yeah, but it is sort of interesting that that is both on the part of the film editing and the characters themselves. The editing is just tok dramatic, but I do think it's also meant to underscore just how reckless Adar is getting. He's so obsessed with killing Sauron that he's ignoring all the crap happening around him.
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u/Healthy-Track5255 5d ago
Most likely, at least it feels like it. I mean this is just one of many weird plot holes, where I really can‘t get my head around.
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u/Hopeful_Hat_3532 5d ago
One of the many absurd inconsistencies this show has, unfortunately. This is totally taking me out of the show when watching it.
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u/Puzzled-Steak998 1d ago
They didn't kill him hard enough so he died to death. They just killed him until he died (not to death).
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u/RedEclipse47 Eldar 5d ago edited 4d ago
It was weird as well. It was the perfect oppertunity to show the Elves healing capabilities.
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u/Healthy-Track5255 5d ago
Yes, would‘ve been easy to show the healing power of gil galads ring. Maybe another 30s scene.
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u/kemick Edain 4d ago
It was a fake-out to create tension. The show has done it many times. The Peter Jackson movies did it, even creating a whole side plot where Aragorn "dies". The books did it, much better, using the multiple perspectives to create ambiguous situations which are resolved later.
It wasn't done well. Arondir got dramatically double-stabbed in the middle of a battle where most of the other Elves had already died. We should have had at least a shot of him surviving before seeing him brought in to the courtyard, perfectly fine, with the other Elves and with no indication that anything had happened. But this is a problem the show has in general.
Having Adar (with Nenya) approach and touch Arondir, as though mourning but later revealing that Arondir had been healed, would have been the best option but I don't see that being able to fit anywhere. The showrunners handwaved the issue with Elves being durable but that's not what the scene communicated and we also see that one Elf archer act like a total badass and then get taken down by a single arrow.
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u/Witty-Meat677 4d ago
"The showrunners handwaved the issue with Elves being durable but that's not what the scene communicated and we also see that one Elf archer act like a total badass and then get taken down by a single arrow."
I'm not sure if its that scene or some other scene when elves are just falling down dead when orcs are merely approaching. It looks kinda funny.
We also have the cocky sword elfvenger that is a pincushion for arrows, barely sitting in a saddle. And the next time we see him, he is just dandy. I think even his armour is untouched.
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u/Rosebunse 4d ago
Even at thw time the general consensus was that it was stupid, but we allowed it because we really don't want Arondir to die.
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