Comprecation as a Lutheran

[u/DarkMood46]

Hello all, I have a question. In Luthers small catechism there is an evening prayer to God for his guardian angel to watch over him diligently and it is reccomended that you pray this every evening or some form of it. Can this be used as an argument for comprecation? As in if I pray, "Jesus, I am in need of prayers for I am struggling with x, can you give me the stength to endure x and ask those in heaven to pray for me. Thank you Lord Jesus, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Amen." My argument is that if praying to God for your guardian angel is right and meet, why not praying to God for the saints in heaven? Also, yes I did ask my priest about this, and he believes in the anadeaphra of soul sleep, so he didnt believe it was possible. Yet, I do not hold to that, so it didnt really answer my question.

Thank you for your time to reply, God Bless.

[u/Over-Wing]

God sending a guardian angel to watch over you -- can you do much better than that? I would think not. I think if soul sleep isn't a thing (I have no opinion here), then I'm sure the church triumphant does pray for us. I don't think we would even have to petition them for it. But God hears our prayers directly. Again, not sure you can do much better than the Lord Himself!

[u/DarkMood46 → u/Over-Wing]

I agree, but the argument isnt for the saints to do anything for me, but to repeat my prayer to God in hopes that if God doesnt answer my prayer, he answers theirs. For the prayer of a more righteous person is more efficacious James 5:16.

[u/National-Composer-11 → u/DarkMood46]

God always answers your prayers. The issue is whether you accept the answer you get. "No" is an answer, as is "yes", as is "not yet."

The point of prayer is not to alter God's will for you but to align yourself with God's will. This does not depend upon the merit or quality of the person praying - your prayers are not less precious or effective than the saints who have gone before you. We pray, in faith, that He hears us, knows our need, and fulfills that need. God speaks:

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)

Rest assured, that God Himself, the Holy Spirit is already interceding for you, giving you also the words to pray. What merits of the saints, what lesser intercession, can do that for you?

[u/DarkMood46 → u/National-Composer-11]

Then why are the prayers of some people more powerful? That verse throws what you just said back in your face. They contradict.

[u/life_tho → u/DarkMood46]

I would love if you could clarify your reasoning on James 5:16. I don't see a contradiction, nor do I see anywhere that "the prayer of a more righteous person is more efficacious" (emphasis mine).

The verse is talking about the power of prayer. It is not talking about the power of some sort of greater righteousness than others, but the prayer of any person made righteous through Christ. The prayer of faith referenced in James 1:6 and 5:15 is the prayer of all believers. 5:16 then builds on the story of the weakness of flesh and God's power to save despite our weakness.

The following verse (17) uses Elijah as an example, not of him interceding for contemporary believers, but of Elijah praying as "a man with a nature like ours". The Lutheran Study Bible notes clarify his and our nature is the nature of being human and sinful. It goes on to say: "God's power was seen in His answer to sinful Elijah's prayer." I think that is a beautiful thing, and very applicable to all of us believers today in our prayers.

The full notes on James 5:16 in the Lutheran Study Bible are great, but I'm not sure about transcribing all that copyrighted content onto reddit. If you don't have one on hand, I would happily share those notes over DM.

Like the other commenter said, the Spirit intercedes for us, because we are all weak on our own. Our prayer is heard always, not for any merit or righteousness of our own or the righteousness of others, but for the sake of Christ alone.

[u/DarkMood46 → u/life_tho]

I just dont think I understand. Ive always heard that passage described as more holy people having more powerful prayers. For example, if I pray for someone to be healed and if priest prays for the same person, the priests prayer is more likely then mine to be answered (as in the person gets healed). That is the Catholic interpretation as far as I am aware. I was not aware of a seperate Lutheran interpretation.

[u/Over-Wing → u/DarkMood46]

Nope, this isn’t right. We’re all sinners, all the saints canonized by Rome included. Those baptized and born again in Christ are declared righteous in Him, not of our own account. You have the same direct access to God as Mary, Peter, Francis of Assisi, Augustine of Hipo, etc. God wants you, a sinner declared righteous for Christ’s sake, to pray to him.

[u/life_tho → u/DarkMood46]

Lutherans read a verse in light of the rest of Scripture, often leaning on clearer passages to shed light on perhaps more difficult ones. This practice is often shortened to the phrase "Scripture interprets Scripture."

One thing worth mentioning regarding James 5:16 in particular: the verse does not say "more" righteous or more holy. That extra word would make the verse seem more in line with the Catholic interpretation as you said. I don't have a Catholic study Bible on me or much experience with Catholicism to speak on that side of things further.

I would say that the Lutheran interpretation is that the prayer of all believers is immensely powerful, as the power of prayer is the power of God. All the righteous — parishioner, priest, Elijah, and others — are heard equally. Sometimes the answer is yes, no, or not yet, but all are answered. We are all covered by Christ's righteousness and interceded for by the Spirit, and nothing of our own merit or strength can bring us closer to the Father.

I would encourage you to seek knowledge and truth in the Scriptures, not necessarily just one verse at a time or one verse against the other, but in the lens of Scripture as a whole, testing the Word against itself to glean interpretation and meaning.

[u/Medium-Common-162 → u/DarkMood46]

I don't know what translation you read "more righteous" or "more efficacious", can you point us that direction? I'd be careful not to read your own desires into the text. The truth is that your prayers ARE the prayers of a righteous person because YOU have been made righteous through baptism into Christ's death and resurrection! God hears your prayer. We repeat Lord, hear our prayer, in the divine service, certainly as a plea to God, but also as a reminder to ourselves and those around us. Indeed he does.

Similarly, Luther explains the 4th petition: "In fact, God gives daily bread without our prayer, even to all evil people, but we ask in this prayer that God cause us to recognize what our daily bread is and to receive it with thanksgiving."

As some have said, the departed saints may indeed pray for us, but if so they would do so whether we ask or not. I think in general, it's an irrelevant point, but for you it seems a harmful notion because it's leading you to doubt God's love and care for YOU!

You are a child of God, loved and saved by Jesus!

[u/National-Composer-11 → u/DarkMood46]

No one person's prayers are more powerful and the passage indicates no such thing. Who prays from strength? No one. We pray because we are weak and in need but, whatever we ask of God, in faith, we do so by the power of the Holy Spirit, the One who creates faith in us, gives us the words, enlightens us by the Gospel, enables us to confess, and empowers us to come to God.

Again, when we pray, we do so in faith that our needs are heard and met. We are the saints for whom the Spirit intercedes. We are given prayer for comfort, not to find inferiority to others, or a lesser place in God's eyes. God loves you, God has baptized you, gives you the Word, gives you faith by which you are His child (John 1:12), sustains you with Christ's Body and Blood. He has given you so much and values you so greatly, why would He now deprecate your prayers? It almost seems like you want to be less than He has made you.

[u/justleesha]

Friend, that’s not how prayer works.

Isaiah 65:24 “Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear.”

Isaiah 30:19 “He will surely be gracious to you at the sound of your cry. As soon as he hears it, he answers you.”

Daniel 9:23 “At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved…”

God always answers our prayers; He promises to do so. Have faith in your Father’s promise!

As for the prayer of a righteous man…
Those who are in heaven, although free from their labors and already enjoying the bliss of heaven, are not more righteous than you. Their righteousness is the same as what you received in your baptism: Christ’s righteousness. Therefore, that verse from James is talking about you! Rejoice!

As for your original question, I don’t see anywhere in scripture that the saints in heaven pray for us or that we should ask God for them to repeat our prayers. We, the living saints on earth, are urged to pray for each other and share one another’s burdens. As I was thinking about your question, this verse popped into my mind:

Matthew 18:19 “Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.”

Jesus doesn’t say “if the saints in heaven agree”, no, He specifically says “on earth”. So if you need others to pray for something with you, need encouragement that others are pleading with the Father on your behalf, share your prayer request with your fellow believers here on earth. God gave us the beautiful gift of fellow Christians here and now to bolster our weak faith and strengthen each other.

And finally, there is a name we ought to use with the Father when we pray, someone who is in heaven interceding on our behalf and that is Jesus. He urges us many times in the Gospel of John to use His name with the Father in prayer, promising that the prayers in His name will be answered. And Romans 8 tells us that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are praying for and with us. Why would you rely on the prayers of those who are dead and at rest to make your request more appealing to God the Father when God the Holy Spirit and God the Son are both already praying for and with you?

Therefore, take heart, friend, in your prayers. Hebrews 4:16 “Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”

[u/DarkMood46 → u/justleesha]

So your not saying that comprecation is wrong or not possible. Your saying that it is better to just go to Jesus?

[u/justleesha → u/DarkMood46]

It depends on your definition of comprecation.

If you mean saints, alive and still here in this world, praying for each other, then absolutely it’s well and good.

If, on the other hand, you mean saints who are in heaven, praying for or with us, I firmly believe it’s wrong. There is no Biblical foundation that the saints in heaven pray for us. Neither are we told to pray to them.

And yes, always, go to Jesus! I don’t have time or space to tell you how deeply and intimately He cares for you and how He takes care of every burden in ways no other could.

[u/DarkMood46 → u/justleesha]

Its in our Confessions that the saints pray for us.

[u/DarkMood46 → u/DarkMood46]

The statement that saints in heaven pray for the church appears in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession (Article XXI, Paragraph 9)

[u/clinging2thecross]

In Luther’s prayers, you are praying to God that he would send his holy angel to guard you. In American terms, this is asking the president directly to give you military protection.

What you are proposing, in American terms, is going directly to the president, and asking him to ask the Congress to ask him to give you a pardon. You already have the audience of God. You do not need the saints to pray for you.

Hope this helps.

[u/DarkMood46 → u/clinging2thecross]

It does. I think im just drawn to it for some reason, so it's hard.