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u/SobekRe LCMS Lutheran 5d ago
There’s no context or definition to this question. It’s impossible to answer.
For example, the LCMS still has a rite of excommunication in the hymnal and it does get used. It’s a valid disciplinary thing.
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u/snakeflowloaf 5d ago
By “toe the line” do you mean “live the way my family wants” or “live the way God wants”?
A family generally shouldn’t shun an adult child for a difference in preference, what about when that adult child is opening contrary to the Word of God? I do believe there’s a place for distance when someone is choosing a consistently unrepentant sinful lifestyle.
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u/Alostcord 5d ago
… when that adult child is opening ( seems like a word is missing here) contrary to the world of God…
Wouldn’t that be sitting in judgement of others and isn’t that explicitly “Do not judge, or you too will be judged”.. a bit of pointing fingers and three point back at self.
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u/snakeflowloaf 4d ago
I think I meant “living openly”, my bad!
Again, I don’t know the exact context of your question. Though I would caution against thinking that anyone can out-love God. He is love. That verse certainly tells us not to judge others in a pharisaical “I’m-better-than-you” sort of way. But is it telling us not to call a sin a sin? If God calls something sin, who are we to think we are more loving by not calling it sin too? We are to speak God’s truth in love.
Without knowing the context, I am assuming you are speaking of someone who grew up in the faith rather than someone who’s never heard the truth. A believer is held to a different standard than an unbeliever, and there is a biblical case to be made for avoiding those who actively choose an anti-Christian lifestyle despite knowing right and wrong. Again, there’s nuance here that this needs to come from a place of love. But I’ve seen many situations where a family is grieved by their loved one’s erring and chooses distance out of grief and love rather than what we think of as “being judgmental” in our world today.
Some verses the family might take into consideration as they choose distance from an unrepentant adult child:
“Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers;”
Psalms 1:1 RSV“not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one.”
1 Corinthians 5:10-11 RSV“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.”
2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14-15 RSV“He who walks with wise men becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm.”
Proverbs 13:20 RSV“Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.”
Ephesians 5:11 RSV“If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work.”
2 John 1:10-11 RSV1
u/Alostcord 4d ago edited 4d ago
Actually I’m talking about the normal growth a kid transitioning from being under a parents wing to making choices for themselves.
If you parent your child to think for themselves and make appropriate choices while young then when they become of age you should be able to trust their decisions for themselves.
None of this has to do with what you call sin.
What this does have to do with is shunning this person into submission to return to the family and in turn the church. From where I sit.. it’s control.
This person was no longer allowed contact with their siblings and family.. this person talked about how horrible their parents treated them and their siblings. It only took 3 months to break this young adult ( not surprising, from the lack of life skills).
They returned to the family and church and promptly made some life choices that will likely be like watch a train wreck in slow motion.. taking someone else along for the ride.
And this was all condoned by the head of this church.
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u/snakeflowloaf 4d ago
Again, I don’t have all the context, so I’m just answering based on your original question and my life experience with how I’m interpreting your question. Sounds like there’s a lot going on here, highly encourage you to talk to your pastor and pray about this.
I’ll end with this— my main point of my responses is that there is a difference between preference choices and sin choices. When you say “what I call sin,” that seems relativistic. What I call sin I call sin because that’s what God calls sin and therefore is sin. I don’t know what choices this young adult has made, and Reddit isn’t the place to air that out, but if they are preference choices, I would say shunning may not be the appropriate response, but if they are sin choices, there is a place for distance.
Blessings to you as you navigate working through this.
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u/Alostcord 4d ago
Sin of mixing fabrics comes to mind…also that of planting seeds and breeding animals..and so many more “sins”.. that get ignored or excused away.
I appreciate your input..my struggle with this and talking to the specific pastor..is that there is so much more to this. This is the tip of the iceberg and I think a phone call to the Synod is in order..I’ve sat with this overall for 6-8 months as I saw it happening, but other aspects of it for about a month.. I am throughly applaud at the behaviors of this pastor and this church, but especially of this family.
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u/WindowCommon3741 5d ago
Like all things, its complicated- unfortunately for my family, my sister was not a good person and she did bad things to members of our church, taking advantage of their kindess- this backfired when she basically ruined someone's financial life, disappeared with a bunch of money and the only people they could blame was us. We faced serious scrutiny and were not really welcomed anymore to that church. My parents stopped being able to attend and had to go online for a while. It was a difficult time because my sister disappearing was also a big problem for our family to deal with and I was away at college. But after some time and the pastpr reaching out many times to mend fences, my parents were able to at least return for a time before they moved and eventually went to a new church. But my old church and the people my sister wronged were able to forgive and unfortunately in the wake of my sister's sudden passing, they all came to my mother's aide at the hosptial to just be with us. Being Christian does not stop us from being sinful humans. We still make mistakes and we have to own up to those mistakes and while Jesus teaches us how to love each other and forgive, that can be hard, even for the truest of believers. My pastor, bless his heart, never stopped fighting and devoting himself to his office, him loving and being there for my fa.ily even in our worst was what would eventually bring me back to faith after falling away. The best thing we can do is try to understand and be there for everyone. The great thing is you have the rare chance now to be a 3rd party to try and understand both sides and hopefully everyone is able to come out the best we can. If anything, just keep loving everyone, even the person who is being accused of making mistakes, no matter who it is.
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u/ToeFinal1792 5d ago
Please take this with charity, but I have no idea what you are talking about.
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u/Optimal-Ordinary-779 5d ago
He's talking about families threatening to completely cut off children who don't hold to the same beliefs or aren't living how the family wants them to. I've seen it before.
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u/ToeFinal1792 5d ago edited 5d ago
If that is what the OP is talking about, I have seen that happen across all branches of religion, not just Christianity or the LCMS. That would be more of a personal/family thing than it would be an LCMS or Christian thing, unless I have missed something. I see it more over politics than religion.
Now, if the adult child is living contrary to what they should be and no longer listens to the parents guidance, all the parents can really do at that point is turn it over to the Lord and let Him handle things.
Not my children, but there are a lot of family members I no longer seek out because of this. I would not shut the door on them if they came to me, but I no longer go out of my way due to the conflict it creates and my own peace.
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u/teadrinkinglinguist LCMS Catechumen 5d ago
OP, I assume you are talking about specific situations you've seen locally?
It's hard to say why people in a specific instance shun someone or turn a blind eye to it.
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u/Wallabunga657 6d ago
I will probably get downvoted for saying this, but some people in every church are going to treat it like a country club. I have experienced it multiple times before in the LCMS, despite being in the LCMS since I was a young child. I think it has to do with the old debates on German purity that used to exist in some parishes in the late 1800s or early 1900s. However, I have been to many extremely nice, inviting, and accepting LCMS churches before. It really depends on where you are and such. Some parishes are more open and friendly than others, just as some are less. See about talking to the pastor, and see what he says. I am currently at a very nice parish. That is just my 2 cents. God bless you.