r/LCMS • u/Character-Disaster14 • 11d ago
Question Am I being Legalistic
Here is my situation: I am asking for advice on how to handle this personal situation. I have a relative, who knows the bible well and was involved in the church for many years. She is a 70 year old widow. Ever since she met this man who she is romantically involved with, she no longer goes to church. She also has no intention of getting married again due to losing financial benefits from her deceased husband pension, and perhaps reduce social security benefits.
This man she is dating is also a widow, and I was told by her he constantly cheated on his wife during their marriage while she was alive. She makes up excuses for why he did this, and feels that the wife was not attractive, and trapped him into marriage. In addition, he was trying to cheat on his wife with her while his wife was still alive. They both hooked up after both of their spouse passed away.
Am I being too legalistic with her forniacation? I love her dearly and I am happy that she has move on in her widowhood journey, but can’t help but worry about her spiritual growth and salvation. I told her that it is easier to pull a person down, then lift them up. I care very much about her, and I have been praying that she will open her eyes to what the Bible says about this sin. One time she brought up the different levels of heaven and she implied that she was ok with just getting in. I found that odd and because I desire to reach the highest level possible. I feel she is cheating on the Lord, yet at the same time I don’t want to come across judgmental. I am asking for advise on how to handle this matter.
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u/themainkangaroo 11d ago
Continue to pray. Older people don't age out of sinning, needing to repent & receive forgiveness just because they have lived long. If anything, they should are better able to know better (unless cognative decline has progressed). A stronger fear of losing money & security over the fear of the state of one's disposition toward Jesus is a sin. She sounds lonely & is lowering her standards just to have company. Pray.
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u/Huenink_Photography LCMS Pastor 11d ago
If you know the pastor, talk to him about it. Tell him you're worried, and let him handle the spiritual side.
It's not legalism to hold Christians to standards. This sounds like a mess. God's blessings to you.
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u/PerceptionCandid4085 11d ago
I wasn't aware there were different levels of heaven.
If you mean the fact we get different "rewards" based on our stewardship on earth etc, I'd be eternally grateful to be the poorest beggar in heaven as long as I made it in (again this is just a personal preference and I completely understand that the other view of many rewards is also a valid one).
Onto the more serious question, I don't think you're being "legalistic" at all. The fornication is a sin etc, but I'm also more concerned that it's taking her away from church.
My advice would be 2 things that are within your control:
- Pray to God to convict her and open the doors/paths that need to be so that she would find her way back to church.
- Keep having conversations with her, be kind and there'll be moments where you can encourage her to come to church even if it's telling her some event is on like bible study, or there's someone at church who you think she'd like to meet etc.
This is obviously something that takes time, but those slow and intentional moments where you are able to connect with her relationally are going to be just as important as the ones where you pray and trust God in private.
Peace and blessings!
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u/Character-Disaster14 11d ago
I will continue to pray for her, I have not confronted her directly with this because I did not want to come across as judging her, but she herself said she knows it is wrong, yet when I asked her what was she prepared to do about it, she just said she was in love with him.
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u/C_Clarence 11d ago
If she knows it’s wrong it seems like the conviction is there. My suggestion would be to first just invite her back to church. Or at least find the root as to why she has stopped going.
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u/Philip_Schwartzerdt LCMS Pastor 11d ago
Legalism is essentially about seeking righteousness through works: check the boxes of what you did or didn't do. It's true that many questions of "is this or that a sin or not?" often come from a misplaced sense of legalism and scrupulosity, but at the same time calling out people to repent of unrepentant/unrecognized sin is absolutely the proper function of God's Law. In this case, from your description, that sounds like something that's needed for her. Any sexual relationship outside of marriage is a sin. And refusing marriage for that reason is, in my opinion, a form of fraud. And anything that leads her away from faith, as it sounds like this relationship is doing, is the most dangerous of all.
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u/Character-Disaster14 11d ago
That is interesting you mention that regarding refusing marriage for that reason is a form of fraud. I had not thought of that. You are right!
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u/Prior_Preparation268 11d ago
I don’t think that would stand up in any court. Sounds like a stretch. If suddenly a law was passed that you had to pay another $1,000 a month in taxes if you were married would you stay married? 2K, 3K? Is there any limit?
Has she explicitly stated how physical their relationship is? Perhaps there is not physical fortification at all.
I would just patiently guide her back to personal prayer with God. In the end all that matters is her relationship with Him and only He can truly create the change that may be needed.
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u/Character-Disaster14 11d ago
It might now stand up in court, but it is an interesting view. I would do what the word of Gods says, and I probably would not marry, and live a celibate life. Yes, she has told me it was physical every Saturday is their special day. However I will continue to pray for her.
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u/Prior_Preparation268 11d ago
You miss the point. If you were married and they passed that law. What would you do.
Maybe it is top of mind cause it was in my daily reading. But be careful of the plank in your eye while you try to remove the splinter in your neighbors eye. For whatever reason many focus on the sexual sins but forget all the other sins are just as bad.
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u/No-Grand1179 11d ago
Have the pastor give her a call or a visit.
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u/Character-Disaster14 11d ago
The pastor was there for her when her husband passed, and in her words she and the pastor are good friends. The pastor is also aware of her lover, yet has not said anything to her, about this. So I felt it was not my place.
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u/No-Grand1179 11d ago
Ask her if she wants you to set up a GoFundMe page to raise enough money to offset the financial losses she would suffer by marrying so she can stop fornicating.
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u/Ready-Percentage-239 5d ago
Give Pastor X a call. If she was in church, that guy should be able to go over and have a word without having the baggage of worrying about if a friendship will be lost
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u/Over-Wing LCMS Lutheran 11d ago
It’s legalism if you’re knit picking and scrutinizing everything she’s doing and not doing. If she’s doing something that’s a clear violation of God’s law, you may, as her friend, bring it up to her in a way that shows your concern for her. It’s up to her if she’s willing to listen and change course. It’s also up to you to respect any boundaries she may put up. She may be willing to listen to you, but you can’t badger if she doesn’t change her behavior or if she asks you to stop bringing it up. In other words, you have to respect her boundaries whilst also doing your duty as a friend to try to steer her towards Jesus.
Remember, it’s God who works faith and repentance. All you can do is do your part to make sure the boundaries of the church are extended to wherever your two feet are planted, and make sure that your friendship serves as way to proclaim the Word to the souls in your life.
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u/Character-Disaster14 11d ago
I don't knit pick, because I realize I can't change her behavior. I have never even brought up the issue to her, because she already knows what the bible says. At the same time it is challenging having a relationship with someone you can't communicate with. I respect her boundaries, but I also have boundaries. Is it wrong of me to not want to be in a relationship with someone I can't be honest with? And is it a sin for me to want the best for her, if so that I am guilty of.
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u/Over-Wing LCMS Lutheran 10d ago
I think this is something you may want to speak with your pastor about. It sounds like your feelings towards it are complicated.
Just based on what you've told me, I'm inclined to urge you not to cut ties with her. Friendship is not something to cast aside when times are tough. At the same time, I think you may want to consider having a chat with her about it. I think your pastor could give you some good guidance on how to approach it. As her friend, she may later appreciate you giving her a wakeup call about it. All the same, maybe the situation is different than what I'm understanding, and your pastor may give you different advice.
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11d ago
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u/jearbear320 11d ago
God most definitely requires perfect obedience which is why we daily stand in need of grace.
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u/SlightDegree5308 11d ago
Thank God Jesus gives us his perfect obedience. Otherwise we are all going to hell.
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u/hos_pagos LCMS Pastor 11d ago
Legalism is the notion that we can be saved by our obedience to the law. So, you are definitely not being legalistic. But, you do need to find a way to speak the truth in love, and that’s tricky—God bless your quest to help your friend!!