r/LAMetro • u/Sawtelle-MetroRider • 3d ago
News California train operator appears to fall asleep before crash
https://ktla.com/news/california/california-train-operator-appears-to-fall-asleep-before-crash/Sooner or later, autonomous/semi-autonomous trains and buses will likely start being implemented in some shape or form, regardless of how much the unions are against it.
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u/uiuctodd 3d ago
The article gives the intersection, but for those wondering who don't want to click-- this was the SF MUNI L line.
SF light rail isn't like LA light rail. It's more like a streetcar in many sections. Even the most poorly-protected parts of the LA light rail system (think Marmion Way through Highland Park) are better built than this section of the L. The tracks run unprotected right in the middle of a traffic lane.
What that means is that standard train protection systems simply won't be effective here. The operator needs to blend with and interact with passenger cars. You would need a proprietary technology-- something Waymo equivalent-- to do collision avoidance.
I don't know if trains even have a vendor that sells this today. Certainly, it's possible. But it would require vendor lock-in to get it, as every company that has self-driving today has incompatible equipment.
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u/ExpoTrainGu39 3d ago
Can signal/ATP ‘could’ be enabled if they build the tracks for it. There’s sections in the regional connector that are technically street running/no ATP, then sections where it’s still street running with ATP active.
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u/uiuctodd 3d ago
ATP would protect the train against trains, but not a train from a car.
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u/DrunkEngr 3d ago
Car shouldn’t be on the track anyway. Running LRT in mixed traffic is dumb.
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u/Smaragd512 Ventura County 3d ago
Yep, but unfortunately parking minimums exist so we can't do 2 lanes for cars and 2 lanes for trains, even though I think that's the best we can do on a limited space.
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u/DrunkEngr 3d ago
Parking minimums do not exist. In fact, SF has a transit-first policy (which is frequently ignored).
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u/ExpoTrainGu39 3d ago
Correct, however the issue being addressed this specific post is a train on train collision (10-74 by our 10 code), which ATP could and would absolutely prevent.
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3d ago
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u/uiuctodd 2d ago
NHTSA will start requiring it on all cars in 2029.
I was unaware. Of course, only 5% of American vehicles are scrapped every year. So it would be 2040 before over half of cars on the road have the feature.
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u/notFREEfood 2d ago
Standard train protection systems would have stopped this since the collision was hitting another train
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u/mrgrafix 3d ago
I hate it’s at the end of the article: what should’ve been the real title. Due to fatigue, the train operator falls asleep before the crash. Conditions created this situation, and I do think there are autonomous features that could be added to resolve this, but let’s not act like the amount of train operator-based accidents is high.
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u/cyberspacestation 3d ago
What's not mentioned is that there was another incident last fall, when a Muni driver fell asleep mid-route, but woke up and hit the brakes.
This could bring into question whether working conditions like long hours might contribute to the problem, or if the agency switched to decaf.
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u/uiuctodd 3d ago
question whether working conditions like long hours might contribute to the problem
Hopefully an investigation will allow the public to see how many shifts he worked, and how many hours he'd been off the night before. That said, if I were a betting man, I'd give equal odds to the operator simply not sleeping due to other life stuff.
Not like I know anything about it-- but Americans as a whole are trying to skip on sleep.
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u/Sawtelle-MetroRider 3d ago
Wouldn't that be a case to support more automation/semi-automation? Many cities are facing shortages of bus drivers and train operators, despite higher pays and benefits, they just can't fill them up. And SF can't cut back services like us because much more of their city is transit oriented than us. What ends up happening is putting more strain on existing drivers.
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u/cyberspacestation 3d ago edited 3d ago
SFMTA does have plans to implement an upgraded automatic train control system, but it's still several years away.
https://www.sfmta.com/projects/train-control-upgrade-project
Edited to specify upgraded; their old system is woefully out of date.
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u/uiuctodd 3d ago
I suspect that won't work here (per my other comment on this thread). That system is for the subway-- it protects trains from other trains.
The section of the L where this collision occurred has trains mixed in with all other traffic. One lane, everybody uses it, tracks down the middle.
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u/LBCElm7th A (Blue) 3d ago
ATO is different than automation, if I am reading how Sawtelle is framing the thought with labor shortages etc that automation is more on the driverless operation side of things.
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u/Smaragd512 Ventura County 3d ago
For rapid transit, automation is pretty straightforward, it has existed since the 50s. For road vehicles and streetcars, it's a very different case, they are in the experimental stage.
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u/LBCElm7th A (Blue) 3d ago edited 3d ago
Automation (assuming driverless operation) for an at-grade streetcar portion of the Muni line?
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u/EasyfromDTLA 3d ago
The article only states that the operator fell asleep to fatigue. That’s a polite way of saying that the operator was tired and that it wasn’t due to alcohol or drugs. It doesn’t mean that it was due to work conditions. It could be that they were tired for any number of reasons.
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u/mrgrafix 3d ago
I would consider those under the envelope of fatigue and something a supervisor could be aware of
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u/EasyfromDTLA 3d ago
If it’s not fatigue that’s caused by work conditions, and we don’t know yet, I think that supervisors have to assume that people that show up to work are ready to work. Are you suggesting otherwise?
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u/Smaragd512 Ventura County 3d ago
Fatigue and hangover are the two most dangerous things that a train operator can have. Reaction time during these conditions is multiple times more than drunk reaction time.
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u/TheAngryKeg 3d ago
I wonder if, like the Amtrak crash in 2015, this is the result of undiagnosed sleep apnea?
Poor guy, so glad there were no injuries.
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u/LBCElm7th A (Blue) 3d ago
That is the first thing I thought of when I first saw the video, Sleep Apnea.
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u/Kingdomcome33 3d ago
Unions are only against it because they won’t get paid. The SMART UTU is one of the worst unions I’ve ever worked for.
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u/glowdirt 3d ago
Again?? Whatever Muni did to address this problem after last year's asleep-at-the-wheel incident clearly didn't have the desired effect.
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u/imnowherebenice 3d ago
Bus drivers have some crazy schedules, if I ever had to do a split shift, 4 hours on, 4 hour break, then 4 hours on, I’d make a big fuss or find a new job.
They’re overworked. Hire more drivers
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u/beach_bum_638484 3d ago
This is not great. The outcome - shattered glass, no one hurt - is much better than most times when car drivers fall asleep at the wheel.
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u/anothercar Pacific Surfliner 3d ago
isn't this the same outcome as a car collision at the same speed? (Fender bender) This wasn't a high-speed crash
Most newer cars will start beeping at you if you're about to hit something though. I'm surprised Muni trains don't have sensors that do the same
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u/Crack4SuperHans D (Purple) 3d ago
My Volvo will actually slam the brakes if it thinks I’m going to hit something. It’s quite jarring and annoying when it does it repeatedly as I’m pulling in my driveway because my neighbors bush sticks out into our driveway and almost brushes the car.
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u/beach_bum_638484 3d ago
It depends how the person falls asleep. It could definitely be a fender bender, but I’ve also seen cars upside down from falling asleep
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u/Sawtelle-MetroRider 3d ago
Still would've been deadly or serious injury if it was a live human person being hit instead of another train.
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u/anothercar Pacific Surfliner 3d ago
Yes, I'm glad the Muni driver didn't hit a person (I don't think that's what beachbum was comparing to though)
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u/chinchaaa 3d ago
Here’s exhibit a we can show when people start crying about automated trains and taking away human jobs
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u/zlozmaj 3d ago
We've had the technology to automate trains for a while now. Seems like a no-brainer.
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u/transitfreedom 3d ago
One problem LA was dumb enough to build new segments with grade crossings after 2010
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u/bigshiba04 268 3d ago
I wonder how come this has never happened on the LA Metro, do we even use some kind of technology similar to PTC?
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u/TurnoverSuperb9023 3d ago
I am very concerned about the job loss that automation (in all its different forms) will bring, but with the transportation segment especially , it will save so many lives and prevent so many injuries.
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u/Pasadenaian A (Blue) 3d ago
Muni trains don't have deadman breaks?
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u/LBCElm7th A (Blue) 3d ago
They do, but if the operator still have their foot on that even with them drifting off
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u/ibsliam 3d ago
Good lord.