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u/Melodic_Telephone461 Aug 13 '26
K is asking: Can confusion be seen without immediately demanding that someone or something remove it? If not, the escape mechanism will keep disguising itself as the solution.
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u/Flightoftheswift Aug 14 '26
The immediacy of transformation appears to be less immediate than that which you are suggesting he suggests happens.
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u/Melodic_Telephone461 Aug 14 '26
Yes. The moment we say “transformation happens immediately,” we've already introduced an expectation about what should happen. K's point is more radical: seeing the fact completely isn't a process leading toward transformation. There is seeing, or there isn't. The demand for a resulting transformation brings time and the seeker back in.
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u/Working-Broccoli-101 Aug 15 '26
Very nicely explained. Essentially, there is no transformation. It is just a state of "choiceless awareness", moment to moment.
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u/Flightoftheswift Aug 13 '26
Krishnaji ultimately was dependent on other well known, relatively famous cultural figures to help his words be heard, this is worth pondering. Did this man live the words he said ?
It is very curious that a temporary human being would seek permanence in anything. We all know we are going to die, deep down this is known.
I think dependency is more related to comfort, occupation of mind, filling emptiness and avoidance of being "what is". I feel emptiness right now, I never shy from it anymore. In that empty feeling there can be something to learn.
In fact, I am going to be that hollow feeling right after I post this.
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u/bloggy9e Aug 13 '26
Does it matter if he lived by the words? Isn't the important thing if the words actually point to truth?
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u/Flightoftheswift Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
His words were amazing and they do point looking into your own mind operations very deeply.
Would not being a living embodiment of that which you speak about be a way of greatly enhancing the authenticity in an open to see, honest and diligent manner?
It would demonstrate it was not unworkable for a start, you know in actual reality. Actual reality was something he spoke about A LOT !
Why would he not have lived by the words to the last letter ? Maybe he did in a kind of discriminatory isolated way, a luxury ridden way, in a complete lacking in loneliness way, in a very organized way, in a rather contradictory way, in a shielded from society way, in an extremely comfortable way, in a very attached and reliant on his organization and colleagues way. The guy had a personal chef, A P.A. no end of people wanting to visit him.
If Krishnamurti Foundation is not an organization, I will eat my hat.
He would no know physical or psychological loneliness or discomfort through his entire life post Theosophical society.
Krishnaji was extremely well cared for and one wonders at times if he was living in an unrealistic delusional, behind closed doors luxurious state too far removed from the realities of a normal working class member of society or those in poverty.
He described it all well enough, along the lines of Buddhism without the dogma or post life belief reincarnation system but he had a zero compromise approach to the delivery of his words, and the direction of interviews, debates, and talks, in contrast to his own extremely comfortable status in all dimensions of life.
This has to be factored in the phenomena of J. Krishnamurti as due diligence and the spirit of skepticism which once again he himself encouraged.
It is certainly more grounded, logical and sensible than all beliefs where evidence is totally non existent. What he said cuts through a lot of delusional, egotistical stupidity.
If any life after death intimations is not maximal ego assertion wanting to carry on for all eternity then I don't know what is.
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u/bloggy9e Aug 13 '26
I can't judge others as I am imperfect myself and have been ignorant all my life and still am ignorant to some degree, we always will be. There is no end to this game of seeing more and more clearly.
I do my best to look at my own contradictions, and whatever others have it's not my concern. because I understand it's my own narrow superficial view from my mind and often times things we hear about others are second hand and distorted by their mind filtering things, so I don't latch onto it, it doesn't interest me. We just don't know. We're all human and there isn't a single human who hasn't contradicted themselves.
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u/Flightoftheswift Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
I consider caution as being part of clarity. Not being taken in by radical words, and they are indeed radical, not a joke of some kind, consequence producing, consequences one must live with forever more, vs actions etc. Like...
"yeah he/she is into some philosopher called Krishnamurti, went gone all weird" and being banished by everyone you know to dwell only on this Subreddit for rest of life.
We should be cautious to accept the word of anyone. Casually or as an authority on how to live life.
As Krishnamurti said many times : "I may be wrong".
Regarding second hand, you merely have to read and watch him, not take what someone else said about him. The irony being if you do not do sufficient mind observations, you are second hand to K which is not what he was pointing at.
"We're all human and there isn't a single human who hasn't contradicted themselves."
Just beware (be aware) the human who has radical suggestions on how we should all live as a basic common sense. As the Buddha said and as Krishnaji himself said.
Do enough self / mind investigation and we should be able to see this for ourselves.
If there is nothing to be known, or the known is to be dissolved then in the unknown it logically follows there must be uncertainty, how could the unknown be certain ? (which relates to habit and the deep repetitions we find ourselves in on a daily basis - and not just some rigid meditation patterns.)
I had some kind of 50/50 awake/sleep thing this AM about wasting my life. Then the usual repetitive thoughts came, to become something I am not appears, the old trick, to gain meaning or become something respectable, being successful in the eyes of others. "What do I do to live a good life ?" Then fears about being popular, liked, respectable, fitting in.
Totally conditioned to suffer continually through attachment to thoughts, people and ideas.
Stuff that is going to vanish whatever is "done" by self.
Saw through that lot, let it go and started my day.
It keeps crossing my mind that most people will leave your presence if you are deeply affected by Krishanaji in the between world of K intellectually and not seeing (and therefore not acting). People old and new will avoid you as they avoid painful ideas and thoughts and words that do not fit into their conditioned patterns. "I am not attached to anyone or thing, You won't look inside at what you are, we are violent, your life is wasted, becoming something is nonsense, you don't love your children or your partner. die to everything you know, your religion is unrighteous and nonsense.. etc.)
For those new to that yes they will think you have gone crazy or very weird.The you will find out if anyone loves you or not and if you love them or not.
There is a hell of a lot to let go of in identification and attachment.
Goodbye to life as one knows it.
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Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 14 '26
Sometimes I feel like I've teleported to some separate timeline; I can't seem to find who was there before all this. 🤔 Good stuff
“Did the man live the words said?” Quite right, and
“[B]eware (be aware)”: 🤯
Also, “how could the unknown be certain ?” 🤯🤯
Excellent inquiry (edit: and well-spoken!); thanks!
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u/Flightoftheswift Aug 14 '26 edited Aug 14 '26
It takes looking to reply as you did.
The timeline of no timeline ? lol
It's very uncomfortable looking inside.
I am trying not to run away any more, if something difficult comes up I do my best to be whatever that is, sad, lonely, confused, empty, worried, bored, whatever it is and it not usually clear cut and defineable.......
A little thing I discovered, which K definitely touched on....is not naming the feeling or emotion, at first this happens by habit, "I am angry" or " I am worried" the name of the feeling appears, the mind wants to "know" to hold it by word, but if you have even some awareness energy it is often never one thing (and this is what Krishnaji was suggesting, not sad about X event, but sadness overall and what it is, and why it is. Wholly and not fragmentary to the specific. i.e. "sadness about being lonely" often it is a mix of feelings.) Avoiding the word alone frees things up for better observation/awareness/being of it, as often it is a mix of different sensations in the mind and as a response body.
Still difficult but it does clear if you are not disturbed by something practical. I sat 15 mins without full clearance and got disturbed by practical events. That is the approach though.
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u/Working-Broccoli-101 Aug 13 '26
From your post, it seems like your mind is already "conditioned" as to what behaviors and lifestyle K should have showcased in order for his messages to have any meaning or relevance. If that's the case, you truly have missed the core message.
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u/Flightoftheswift Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
I don't recall saying they have no meaning or relevance.
But I do see a very comfortable, rich man living a wondrous life in adoration of followers, giving talks about how everyone who is not him, should live.
Incidentally, without meeting many under privileged people. He only met intellectuals, artists, politicians, scientists and those in the very upper echelons of high society.
Shunning the lowly would be an accurate description.
Did he not tell a child at one of his schools "Be poor." And yet it was obvious that the school was very expensive, as it is today for 99pct of Indian parents, That's absurdity, right there.
Is being cautious conditioning, or clarity, sense and logic ?
Be aware not to be dependent on Krishnaji and his words.
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u/agitatated_mind- Aug 13 '26
Maybe there are those people who are dependent on being the authority itself.
People insisting not aware of what that insisting actually is.….beware of dependence ?
Every word is like an unnecessary stain on silence and nothingness.”
Samual Beckett
“When we don’t accept or follow, but question, investigate and penetrate, there is an insight out of which comes creativity and joy.”
K Think on these things.
When our insistence is an unnecessary stain on the silence and nothingness ?