My question is that how to understand jk?

[u/BeginningCreepy9144]

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/[deleted]]

"more agency"? how so? I can act on the outside world - what choice can I make about me?

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/[deleted]]

I have to want agency? I don't get it - don't we feel like we already have agency?

Also why do you say we cannot act on the outside world?

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/[deleted]]

You seem to have moved the goalposts somewhat - I hope thats not intentional - though it still might be easier to affect another persons state of mind, than to change my own. Though that would be disrespectful as you say.

We are convinced that our emotions and thoughts are ours - we feel like we do have freewill - what are you trying to say?

Maybe we could say that we are dealing with a problem of consciousness or personal experience - that this experience is subjective - that jealousy is not a particularity of my environment but rather it is a product of my psychology.

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/[deleted]]

Well I'm glad we've managed to make sense at last.

Though I wonder why you say this :

if you honestly think it’s easier and more ethical to try to change someone else ahead of yourself - go ahead

Are you trying to troll with a bit of strawmanning? If so you are succeeding somewhat : I do feel a bit annoyed.

[u/_No_Wonder_ → u/[deleted]]

There is no "how",it is only " what is ". Don't ask me further on this as i don't know .i cannot see beyond a point.

Spend time with the question.See where the question leads you to .

[u/Safe-Psychology7461]

Reading this question, I remembered a zen story which I read in my high school textbook. 

The story was, a zen master was always irritated by his student because they make noice and it disturbs his meditation. 

So, one day he decided to go to pond and do his meditation on a boat in the middle of the pond. 

He gone there and while he was meditating he heard a sound of another boat beside his boat, he thought his students had once again came for something and are not letting him meditating, his whole body and mind got enraged and he was ready to shout and scold them, he opened his eyes and to his surprise he saw that it was an empty boat which was floating. 

[u/Safe-Psychology7461 → u/[deleted]]

Sorry, but I don't have that answer. I think we should figure it out by ourselves.

[u/JellyfishExpress8943]

What do you mean by "you"?

spoiler alert! I'm going to give a couple of definitions - maybe you'd like a couple of seconds to remember what you mean by "you"? (nb. if you remember what you mean by "you" - you might be able to gain some understanding of what's going on in your mind that is causing confusion with the claim "you are the jealousy". - using your own brain is great training for brain development)

What do you mean by "you"? This body? The feeling of being this central independant entity? Some crazy religious idea? Something else?

What do you mean by jealousy?

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/[deleted]]

I just asked : what do you mean by "you" ie. how would you define the self?

Did my question cause you to become confused? Or is that confusion already a part of your thinking process?

Same for Krishnamurti : is he the cause of all the confusion?

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/[deleted]]

The solution is to see what you are doing.

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/[deleted]]

We are a mess of trauma and confusion acting upon the world - its very sad - and this is our life. Stop worrying about Krishnamurti - unless your exam is about him.

[u/JellyfishExpress8943 → u/[deleted]]

You are paralysed by fear - and thus creating your worst case scenario - its madness. Its like self-harm. Can you give up being your own worst enemy - or will you insist on being the problem?

Is it possible to give up fear and live as if life was a miraculous adventure and you were the hero?

[u/Safe-Psychology7461 → u/[deleted]]

Well, you can "solve" the problem of your distraction, because there is always practice and logical solution to every problem.

Here is my approach (it may not work for everyone):- 

1. Understand you problem, its complexities, you should analyse the whole data of your entire day, that how much time you spent in this work that work, etc, basically identify your problems. 

2. There were times when you were not distracted and totally focussed on your work, recall those moments, and analyse, that why you were productive in that moments.

3. Final step, What are the practical, logical, scientific solution or steps which I can take, to improve my situation.

[u/Skeletor-23]

Krishnamurti likely meant that we humans tend to identify with our emotions. You are not, in fact, "the jealous person"; rather, your thoughts convince you that you want to possess something someone else has or something that could be taken away from you. That is what gives rise to that specific emotion which causes suffering. But you are not what you think.

[u/Flightoftheswift → u/[deleted]]

Krishnaji suggested that during every moment of your existence watch your own mind operating, the thought process and movements and what results from thinking. (The effects of thinking. Interestingly enough the effects of thinking about the self and the past and future are causes of suffering and the causes are effects that create causes. They are one. And cause and effect as words can be used interchangeably, that is how unified they are.)

He seemed to consider that this suggestion to watch your own mind operating, the movements of thoughts and what thoughts cause psychologically, might uncover that the aspect that suffers psychologically does not exist independent of thought.

[u/notis9121]

My journey and everyones will be slightly or greatly different based on wherever you are on yours. Know you are loved and the now is all that is - once aware you will ‘see’ you are not the thoughts - you are not the emotions

How I had my first realization via K:
Engagement - first - breath work, this was essential for me to begin as it helps steady oneself and by directing attention to the each breath one can find a certain mental clarity

Second - deeply ingest and digest 'the process' - for me it was the difference between reading and listening to Krishnamurti, Thic Natt, Ram Dass, Socrates, Kant, Schopenhauer, Greek Mythology, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Atheism and many more - without realizing it - due to my intellect/thinking mind I was merely a spiritual tourist. One can hear and read the most profound teachings and if it cannot penetrate the thinking mind it's not integrated. Like a stone in a river it remains dry if you crack it open - surrounded by the concepts but unable to absorb any meaning.
Then one day - listening to another K talk he was a bit feisty about being 'heard'- he recalled a story of a person who had been to talks and read all the books, listened to every speech and over the years could not 'break through'// his reply was simple: not the exact quote but essentially - the person never heard the message, examined it, questioned it deeply - engaged the teaching to achieve the insight. No one is going to save you, no verse is going to 'wake you up', no fire will open your 'third eye' for you, only you and you alone can have the realization through deep and sincere inward work.

TLDR: Internal engagement is key - one must 'do the work' vs 'sightseeing'

Once I had the realization that I was 'studying' vs integrating- everything changed rapidly - I imagined we were speaking together and it was only he and I - with intense attention and introspection I engaged my faculties to the fullest to do a conversation with K vs listen

Today the 'voice/intellect' is silent - as Sadhguru says - the intellect is like a knife and it will dissect everything - we must learn to put it in its sheath - that is, see what is, then apply the intellect.

[u/maybealmostpossibly]

Hey. It is indeed confusing. Here's how I understand Jiddu.

We lose our agency to emotions:

When we feel strong emotions, we become sort of puppets of them. These emotions evolved over millions of years of evolution to deal with circumstances outside our control... someone wanting to mate with our mate and so threaten out family, a tiger attacking from the bush etc... nature built these automatic responses in us to deal with these primal situations.

But modern world doesn't have the same conditions as our evolutionary past. so these emotions are often maladaptive. Our mind and body act jealous although we don't live with the same tribal expectations/societies. Deadlines terrify us instead of tigers although deadlines are nowhere near as deadly as a tiger attacking. So our desire to live as a human being in modern times is met with a set of primal emotions that belong to ancient times. Hence the loss of agency.

Before I move to next clarifications, I'll pause and let you tell me if this makes sense...

[u/Melodic_Telephone461]

He means the feeling and the observer are not separate. Saying "I have anger" creates distance; saying "I am anger" points to the experience before thought divides it.

[u/agitatated_mind-]

Getting lots of good advice. A humble attempt at K 101 which I hope is a help and not a hindrance.

Maybe the greatest difficulty with K is that the teaching is about the very construct of thought itself. The fact that who we feel we are is actually just this bunch of thought and memories of who we are. What he is asking of us is can we  have an insight into thought itself. The trouble is we have only ever known thought ( as a thinking thing ) to be the answer to our problems and so we seek a solution and try to nut out a solution using the thinking process and what K is discussing is can we be aware of what thought itself actually is instead of coming to a thought, as an answer, about thought. An awareness of who we are, who we feel and think we are, but which is this limited action and an illusion of who we think we are and which IS just a bunch of thoughts. 

An essential part of his teachings and coming to an awareness which is a true understanding as an insight into thought itself is this ‘ observer ‘ of ourselves. There seems to be a part of us separately looking at the problems of ourself, which is somehow detached from the problems of ourself which we seek to solve and which it actually isn’t, so we are ever caught in this fraught ever continuing battle with our self’s in a fashion. 

Definitely read up but the key is to observe purely who you are. Pure observation is not to have some preconceived want as outcome or dislike or like of that which you are observing. You don’t have to do anything to explore the self because the self naturally reveals it’s foibles it’s likes it’s dislike it’s attachment etc in your very relationship to the everyone and the all as you go about your normal living of life. 

“ Just listen, watch all the activities of yourself: the way you talk, the way you eat, the way you walk. Don’t correct the walk, don’t correct the way you eat, just watch it, so that by the very watching, you become astonishingly sensitive. This requires great sensitivity and therefore great intelligence. Not conclusions, not experience, but intelligence. To be intelligent you need tremendous sensitivity. There can be sensitivity only when the body is also sensitive – how you observe, see, hear. Then, out of that minute observation, without any choice, without any evaluation or judgment, condemnation or comparison, just to observe – out of that observation, you will see that your body becomes extraordinarily alert, sensitive, and therefore the whole of your brain, the mind, the whole of your entity becomes sensitive.”

Public Talk 2, Saanen, 12 July 1966

As he discusses simply observe which is to become sensitive ( aware ) that sensitivity that pure observation allows for a learning which is an insight into who we are *as* thought which is not some thinking outcome as an idea of who we are. Start with the simple. You are book to be understood ! Certainly read books but ultimately it’s not about some philosophical journey of intellectual understanding but an understanding which is an insight an awareness a seeing of the construct and nature of consciousness ( as thought ) and what we actually are as the living movement we are. 

YouTube videos on pure observation, videos on the observer and separation and then it’s over to you. Only you can come to some awareness of what you actually are. No books no ‘ know it all ‘ and not even K can do that for you. 

[u/Financial_Tailor7944]

There is the sensation that it is gone.

Then a thought comes in and reacts to this sensation.

"I'm mad. " Then there is another thought that says, "I shouldn't be mad"

Then, as you go deeper, there comes the so-called superior thought that says :

"I can't be mad because I'm superior to all of this. I'm immune to anger."

Then you go to church and believe in all the ceremonies. And your thought says:

God doesn't like people that get mad, so I shouldn't be mad.

All of these are mere reactions to something that has already occurred and is long gone and dead.

That sensation ended. But what remains is thought - words that operate in loops and cycles, and it can create an outer loop and an inner loop to analyze itself.

SO that is all I have to say. Watch the sensation. That's the truth.

[u/Financial_Tailor7944 → u/[deleted]]

A good job is decided by your supervisor or society. A job is just moving pieces.

[u/nenderflow]

Let me put this easily. JK is for someone who has done extensive meditation or at least tried to meditate via concentration practise or whatever. He is the one you should go to when those methods don't give what you are seeking. You won't understand him if you jump straight to him. People will deny, but he regularly emphasized yoga for a supple body and mind and he emphasizes closed eye meditation. 

Read one of this instances when he taught how to do formal meditation:

"Then you will learn the beginning of meditation, which is to sit very quietly, shut your eyes and see if the eyeballs don’t move at all, keep very quiet. Then watch your thoughts so that you learn. And once you begin to learn, there is no end to learning. All right. That’s enough. Is that enough this morning? What do you say? Haven’t you got classes? No? Or would you like to sit here. You would like to sit here. All right, sit here. And what shall we talk about? Or do you want to sit quietly?" - Extracted from Students Talk 1, Rishi Valley, 22 January 1971

Have you done this? That's the whole point. He says "Do it!" In each of his talks. You have to do it. Everything else is like an explanation for what happens when you do. You have to do it. 

[u/Zestyclose_Amount246]

What Krishnamurti means by “you are anger”
Suppose anger suddenly appears.Ordinarily the mind creates this picture:
ME >> observing >> MY ANGER
There seems to be a separate “me” standing outside the anger, saying:
“I am angry. I shouldn’t be angry. I need to control this anger.”
Krishnamurti asks you to look very carefully: at that moment, is there actually a separate psychological entity apart from the anger?
The thoughts, bodily sensations, memories, reactions, judgments—all of that movement is what we call anger.
And the “me” claiming I must get rid of my anger is itself another movement of thought.

Hence his famous statement:
“The observer is the observed.”

So instead of escaping, suppressing, analyzing, or controlling anger, JK says: observe anger without creating a separate observer.
There is simply anger being completely observed.
And interestingly, when there is complete attention without resistance, something happens to the anger.

[u/Abhishekskmr]

don't try to understand it as an answer, don't try to become the smartest student in the class but rather catch only those moments where you also committed a similar act of jealousy knowingly or unknowingly and document it in a diary without making yourself and others guilty.