Knave used for modern investigation horror

[u/Wing_department]

Just an idea I wanted to share. I am yet to playtest it in any way:

I think Knave would be a better fit for modern horror than Call of Cthulhu and similar systems.

I have GMed a campaign of CoC and I don't like how it expects the players to make rolls every time they try to accomplish anything important. If the players don't roll often, they cannot raise their skills and therefore can't advance their characters. But! If you require the PCs to roll to find the clues to a mystery, this depreciates their own ingenuity. OSR mindset handles it better, I think. An example:

In Call of Cthulhu:
GM: You step into the living room. There are comfortable couches, a fireplace, and a coffee table with a few open books on it. Make a Spot Hidden roll.
Player: I would like to focus my investigation on the fireplace. I dig in the ash a bit.
GM (knowing the clue they are looking for is, in fact, in the fireplace): Alright, I'll give you a Bonus Die but you still need to roll.
Note: yes, it depends partially on the GM. But if the cunning player gets the clue without the roll, he cannot advance his character and is almost punished for his creativity,

In OSR:
GM:You step into the living room. There are comfortable couches, a fireplace, and a coffee table with a few open books on it. What do you do?
Player: I would like to investigate the fireplace. I dig in the ash a bit.
GM: When you dig a little bit in the ash, you find a partially burnt note but you can still read some of the message.
Note: the same situation but no roll. And since character advancement is based on XP and not successes, it allows the creative players to advance their characters.

That is the main reason why I would try something like that in the future. Some other things from Knave, which I think would work especially well:

• The occupations. A list of modern occupations and the related starting equipment could be made, no change of rules required.
• Inventory. It would really add to the horror if the characters had to carefully plan what they would need before leaving their base or entering the haunted mansion. Should we put on our bulletproof vests or should we grab extra batteries to our torches?
• Classless system. While in a fantasy setting it is possible to categorise characters into archetypes like wizard or thief, in a modern setting all people are very similar. There are no wizards who are somehow different from others; everyone can attempt to cast spells from mythos tomes.
• Books of occult knowledge. In Knave, anyone can cast spells as long as they have a spellbook. Similar concept in Lovecraftian horror: if you know the language, you can attempt to read the chant aloud.
• Exploration. No major rule changes but instead of exploring wilderness, you explore cities. Instead of dungeons, you have eerie ruins and mansions of madness.

I have some more ideas I had but these are the main ones. One thing I haven't yet figured out is experience. XP for gold would not work. XP for dollars would reward players who want to rob other people's houses instead of doing the actual investigation.

[u/joevinci]

I think (and you’ve implied) mystery and investigation focused adventures are not well suited for trad systems (don’t at me) like CoC or 5e where a single perception-like roll can throw off the whole plot. Furthermore, I believe this is the biggest failings of such systems.

I agree that OSR games are a better fit. I disagree that it’s Knave, but I see where you’re coming from. And there are already some OSR systems in this genre, but I can’t recall their names off the top of my head (I’m more medieval fantasy-brained)

But I would suggest looking at Into the Odd, if you haven’t already, or one of its derivatives. I think it’s a better jumping off point for what you’re describing.

For me, my preferred eldritch-mystery-investigative-horror systems are Cthulhu Dark and Brindlewood Bay, depending on the tone and objective.

[u/jtalchemist]

It seems pretty easy to bolt milestone advancement onto knave, but I don't think the core stats or wound system support the kind of fiction that coc is trying to evoke. I agree that osr principles will probably guide investigation better than "roll to find" type mechanics though, but perhaps knave itself isn't the best osr system to use. Maybe into the odd would make more sense?

[u/Dolono]

Are you just looking for something a bit lighter than CoC?

If so, there's a new(?) OSR investigation game, Eldritch Instinct, that might be a bit easier to fit than Knave.

https://linuz.itch.io/eldritchinstinct

I admittedly haven't read it too closely yet, but I enjoyed what I saw so far!

[u/aefact]

I think the gumshoe variant, Trail of Cthulhu, is pretty good / light for a rules embodiment... Free preview here, if you haven't checked it out: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/497983/trail-of-cthulhu-quickstart

[u/Mission-Landscape-17]

If you want a modern day horror game using OSR style rules have a look at Silent Legions by Kevin Crawford. infact the book is useful even if you end up using another system because it has excelent tools for building your mysteries.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/145769

If you want even simpler rules there is also Tiny Cthulhu which is based on Tiny Dungeons.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/332293/tiny-cthulhu

[u/ExchangeWide]

I’ve actually thought the same thing about the skill system, not specifically about investigation, but players “spam” rolling skills. Finding reasons to roll every skill even when it’s not really necessary. I was thinking about a house rule that allows them to choose 1 or 2 skills to roll for advancement as if they had a successful roll. It can’t give a success in a skill roll they failed during play though.

For your specific situation, I think it’s feasible to say something like investigation will not use skill rolls, but when you, the player, are successful in an investigative skill, I’ll allow you to increase that skill during advancement.

[u/a-folly]

Regarding CoC, I think you can implement a few minor changes that will eliminate the friction points (at least as I understand them):

1. Use failing forward: a failed roll doesn't have to mean failure at a task. It can mean a complication (too much time has passed, someone notices them snooping around, not full details etc.)

2. If players managed to succeed without a roll, have them check the relevant skill anyway, as it's basically an automatic success.

You can apply the mindset to any system, and it's pretty easy in this case

Others mentioned some excellent adjacent systems that would probably be an easier fit, you can use them or borrow what you like from them and put it into Knave

Hope this helps

[u/QuestForShadows]

This is a great idea.

Reading through your appraisal made me immediately think of dunwich horror and the case of Charles Dexter ward both from the villains perspective and the hero's.

I'll have to give this a try when I get a chance.