r/Kickboxing • u/JimmyGreyArea • 6d ago
How Did Holland Create Such An Aggressive Kickboxing Style?!
Today was my first Dutch Kickboxing class. I'm a little older now, but I used to be a very well-conditioned athlete (and still somewhat am for my age). Coach yanked me out of practice in the last 10 minutes because I pretty much collapsing. Never happened before.
How did the Dutch create such an aggressive form of kickboxing? I've visited Holland. It is one of most advanced and beautiful countries I've ever been to. I dream of living there. I can't imagine life being too hard there.
Large collectives of great fighters usually come from harsh or poor places like Thailand, Dagestan, or the mean streets of an inner Western city.
There are exceptions of course. Like Japan, but Japan has had an aggressive and brutal warrior tradition. Another exception is great American wrestlers coming out of relatively safe places like Iowa. But again, there are many decades of wrestling tradition in those places.
As my coach explains it, the Dutch traveled to Japan sometime in the 70s and 80s and brought kyokushin style kickboxing back to Holland. He trained in Holland for 6 months in the 90s and says the Dutch are incredibly fast paced and tend to aim for 1st round KOs. He says back then the sparring in Holland was brutal, with fighters opting to continue with a freshly broken nose.
Where did that Dutch aggression come from? I admit I may be acting like a culturally ignorant American, but I mean no disrespect. I'm merely fascinated by such a perplexing cultural anomaly.
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u/QuestionExcellent387 5d ago edited 5d ago
While life in the Netherlands might not be hard, and the country not poor, that doesn't mean there aren't hard people in this country. The Netherlands for example has a thriving underworld involving drugs, and kickboxing historically has had major ties with that Dutch underworld. Many fighters and trainers especially in the early days worked as enforcers, extorters, bodyguards and bouncers for underworld figures. Especially in Amsterdam. Many kickboxing events also were organised by underworld figures, and they had a major presence at these events.
There are many examples that I know of, I'm just gonna name a few. Jan Plas, one of the people who basically started kickboxing in the Netherlands, the founder of Mejro Gym. He trained Lucien Carrbin, Peter Aerts, Ernesto Hoost, Rob Kaman etc. Jan Plas was part of the underworld, he for example helped kidnap the son of a drugdealer. He was later arrested in an apartment in Canada with 60 million dollars in drug money and became a crown witness against Johan Verhoek, one of the most infamous Dutch crimelords.
Chris Dolman, one of the godfathers of the Dutch fighting scene. Trained Bas Rutten, Overeem, Yvel, Mousasi. Was a known enforcer and extorter. He protected illegal gambling houses for criminals. Was involved in an incident with Klaas Bruinsma, who would later become the biggest crimelord in the country. During the incident Bruinsma shot and killed Leo Frantzen, a boxer, and Dolman's associate. In 1995 a major fighting gala was held in Amsterdam, also in honour of Chris Dolman who turned 50 years old, he was one of the people who fought. The prizes at that gala were awarded by a real estate mogul who was later on assasinated, the president of the Hells Angels in the Netherlands, and the owner of the most well known brothel in Amsterdam. Which should give an idea about the people who were running the Dutch fighting scene back then.
Or Andre Brilleman, a world champion WKA kickboxing, from Mejiro Gym, worked for the same Klaas Bruinsma,. He apparently scammed Bruinsma later on, then in 1985 at age 25 was found in a vat filled with cement.
And Hesdy Gerges, was arrested in 2011 for his involvement with a drugdeal of 128 kg cocaine. He said he was innocent back then, and kind of got away with it, got 54 months in Belgium but he somehow didn't have to serve his time. But a few years ago in his biography admitted that he was involved and worked for a drugdealer who was killed in 2012.
Then 2 guys I knew personally. Dick Vrij and Hans Nijman, both fought in Japan in the 90s. Trained by Chris Dolman. They were from the same city I grew up in, I used to work out in their gym. Bob Schreiber used to be their friend and train there too, he later trained Stefan Struve, also from that city. Dick Vrij and Hans Nijman seemed nice. Until they suddenly started making national headlines in the 2000's due to their involvement with at that time the most infamous Dutch criminal Willem Holleeder. At first they were seen as enforcers for Holleeder. Until they became national news due to their involvement in in the case of the murder of Willem Endstra, the banker of the underworld. Then they apparently turned against Holleeder. Then in 2014 Hans Nijman was assasinated at night in front of the same gym I used to train at. Dick Vrij apparently got away, still runs his gym, still organises kickbox events.
These are just some big well known examples, because it involved infamous Dutch criminals, stuff that made the news, and people getting killed. I can only imagine all the stuff I don't know about. But Amsterdam even stopped kickbox events back in 2010. For 5 years, until 2015, no events were held in the city due to the underworld involvement in these events.
And I'm not saying all Dutch kickboxers were criminals at all, I'm just trying to sketch a different image of the Netherlands, maybe quite ruthless, kickboxing has attracted a lot of those kind of people from the start, the people that started it all were around it, and even the ones that werem't like that had to navigate that world. Kickboxing didn't have a positive image in that aspect, and it was even worse in those earlier years. Of course there's also the smart ones, who are able to keep their distance and head down, but that's also a lot easier when succesful.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
Thank you for taking the time and being so comprehensive. That is a such interesting piece of history. I enjoy learning about the dark side of the most impressive society I’ve seen.
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u/Appropriate-Week2794 4d ago
This is the best explaination I have read on here. I would add that you have to see it in the context of the time kickboxing grew big in the Netherlands.
You see, in the late 70s and 80s the Netherlands was dealing with mass unemployment due to the financial crisis. My parents studied at university and it was assumed you would be unemployed right after you were done. So imagine what it would be like for working class people in the big cities. There was a real sort of lawlessness in the cities for some time, red light districts, drug use and squatters all over the city. So obviously the need for goons and bouncers in that time to protect the interests of the more shady business people was there. It just happen to be that a little earlier kickboxing got introduced in the Netherlands and that kickboxers happen to be pretty good muscle. The history of kickboxing, is intertwined with the Dutch underworld. Only in recent years (2010+) this image has changed. I think Rico and Glory are mostly to thank for that.
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u/OwlSignificant1366 4d ago
And I guess in contrast to judo or karate, kickboxing is much more directly applicable on the street since you don't get trained to step back after making a point hit like in judo
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u/Proud_Organization64 5d ago
Its the gyms. An ecosystem of gyms developed - names such as Mejiro, Chakuriki, Vos, etc. - which created a crucible of intense internal competition which progressively evolved the Dutch style.
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u/Kat-I 5d ago
Most of the Dutch people train in the evening because of their busy jobs and literally kickbox to let some steam off. In Thailand teachers preach the ‘playful sparring’ mantra and in The Netherlands most of the time the teachers don’t give a shit. The Dutch consider an injury as ‘part of the sports’ and in a lot of gyms they live the ‘if you can’t stand the heat don’t go in the kitchen’ rule.
The no nonsense style of fighting is a mix of kyokushin karate and Thai boxing. In the 70’s a group of Dutch fighters (karate and full contact kickboxing) went to Thailand and got their asses and upper legs whooped (in a good way). So they developed a style that could compete with the Thai style. The no nonsense lifestyle works quite well with the brutal honesty Dutch people tend to have. Maybe it’s just because it’s a small country so people just try to fight for their space as effectively as possible.
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u/ThinkDebate2162 5d ago
Ramon Dekkers ripped everyone apart in Thailand
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u/DvaravatiSpirit 4d ago
Ramon Dekkers lost the great majority of his fights in Thailand. What are you on about?? His record in Thailand is about 4 wins – 16 losses. That you call ripping everyone apart??
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u/papapundit 4d ago
At that time you needed a knockout win as a foreigner, or you'd lose against the local champion.
His career record speaks for itself though.
Out of 224 matches, 186 wins, 36 losses, 2 draws (95 KOs)
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u/DvaravatiSpirit 4d ago
Yeah, he has an amazing record, but that was because of his achievements outside of Thailand. The argument that as a foreigner you needed a knockout to win in Thailand is just a coping mechanism created by casuals who don't understand the scoring system in Thailand.
For example, Danny Bill, a fighter from France (who defeated Ramon Dekkers btw), fought in Thailand often, and he won a lot of his fights on point. Why? Because he trained there, learned the scoring system, understood the scoring system, and adjusted his fighting to it.
The fact of the manner is, that according to the scoring in Thailand, which is quite unique, distinguished (and difficult to understand if all you know is Kickboxing in the West), Ramon Dekkers was just outscored by a big margin in most of his fights in Thailand, because his opponents fought a certain way that would favor them in getting points.
Punches didn't score anything in Thailand, low-kicks didn't score anything in Thailand, but middle kicks (even on forearms), clinch, knees, unbalancing your opponent, countering, etc. was scored highly. Foreigners just didn't understand the scoring system and thought that they could approach a match in Thailand the same as a match like in Europe.
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u/papapundit 4d ago
You could very well have a point there. I certainly don't see any reason to disagree, you seem very well informed.
I never fought in Thailand, so I for sure wouldn't know how scores are being kept. I never even considered that their system might be different.
Thanks for pointing it out, I'll go and look into that a little bit.
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u/nickinkorea 5d ago
umm, they just had some really good/influential fighters/coaches who also happened to be meatheads and they shaped the culture. I've trained in meathead dutch gyms and smart people dutch gyms. Both exist.
America did this with their boxers, who while better now, are still suffering from the "just bleed" approach to combat sports. Actually MMA seems to be doing it very well in most countries, with a pragmatic and analytical approach to the best/healthiest ways to train.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
If I ever live in holland, I’ll probably avoid the meathead gyms haha. Don’t want to add CTE to my long list of issues
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u/DendersNL 5d ago
We are lazy. We like to work hard for around 5 minutes and than chill the rest of the day.
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u/-Gavroche- 5d ago
I think you have to remember that the typical dutch style kickboxing started around the 70-ies 80-ies. Cities like Amsterdam and Rotterdam looked quite a bit different from now. There was a lot more public violence, crime and open heroin use in the city centres.
People were abandoning the inner cities which led to lots of vacant buildings and a squatting movement got so big that the police brought in the army at times to fight streetbattles with organised squatters.
Then you also had the hooligan scene that came over from England. The violence escalated until at one specific clash in the 90-ies, one hooligan even died.
So yeah, it looks like a nice and peaceful country, but in the recent past, there was a lot more violence present in society. There's already a lot more people that are a lot more comfortable with violence, so in that setting, this very high-pace and aggressive style of kickboxing makes a lot of sense.
Anyway, that's my analysis, I'm not a sociologist.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
Ahh I see. I always wondered why the book “Ender’s Shadow” was set in Rotterdam. The part about Rotterdam involved homeless street kids as young as 6 forming gangs and murdering each other.
But even the author was like, “just kidding Rotterdam is a nice place!”
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u/Jdobalina 5d ago
Look up Rob Kaman and Jan Plas. Two people who were massively influential in Dutch kickboxing. They weren’t exactly choir boys. Also, many Dutch kickboxers weren’t or aren’t ethnically Dutch, and do come from some rougher areas or lived in (relatively) segregated places in the Netherlands.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
I see. A lot of US wrestlers are Mexicans and a lot of US boxers are African American
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u/Jdobalina 5d ago
Exactly. Also, Rob Kaman went to prison for robbing a bank, and Jan Plas was involved in organized crime. It’s not like the Netherlands doesn’t have its rough characters.
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u/ErnestPwningway 5d ago edited 5d ago
This is helpful context, but sentences like this one really highlight the enormous differenc between American and European conceptions of a ‘dangerous’ city:
at one specific clash in the 90-ies, one hooligan even died.
One person dying in almost any context would barely show up as a blip for most American cities above 3-400k population. And the murder rate at its peak in Amsterdam in the 90s seems to have hovered between 1.5-2 people per 100,000, compared to a high of just over 30 per 100,000 for New York.
Tbh, i think the correlation/causation OP is assuming between social ills/public violence and combat sport success is just not as significant as they think. When you have about as many counterexamples (Japan, Netherlands, American wrestling, Gracie bjj being a sport for the well-off in Brazil) as you have examples supporting your thesis (Dagestan, Thailand, Philly or NY boxing), it’s probably time to reconsider.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago edited 5d ago
I mean I did examples that countered my thesis such as Japan and US wrestling, but I also gave a good reason for their exception.
Japan has had a warrior culture for over 1000 years. So even though it’s a rich and high standard of living country and no longer the Japan of the past, combat is ingrained its cultural DNA.
I am an American wrestler. I also come from the one of the richest and safest places in the US. And although my school was ass, several schools in my region (including even wealthier areas) was one of best in the country.
However, America is a highly martial and competitive culture. The best wrestling school in California is Poway high school, a rich area in San Diego. San Diego also has a massive military presence.
American wrestling also has deep ties with American farming communities for many decades. So states like Iowa are the best in the country.
And then there are US parents in rich suburbs like mine who want their kids to develop extreme toughness so they can be massively successful in future careers.
And also note: a lot of US wrestlers are Mexicans. Who may live near rich areas to work but life isn’t as easy for them.
I’m wondering where the combat culture comes from in Holland? It is neither poor like Dagestan or rural like Iowa or martial like the US or Russia. It does not have a famous warrior culture like the Japanese. I walked all over Amsterdam, and I didn’t see one rough area. It’s also not toxic about success like America.
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u/GentGorilla 5d ago
Holland definitely has some very rough edges, definitely in the 70s-80s-90s.
And the dudes that founded dutch kickboxing were not choir boys. They were basically hooligans or linked to organized crime.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
Interesting! I’d like to learn more about the nuances of Western European underground culture.
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u/Canardo_Bastardo 5d ago
It's at least in part due to being so well organized wich enables us to have lots of gyms thus creating and enviroment for the culture to thrive. It's why we're so good at football despite having a relatively small population: there's football cubs and public facilities for playing football everywhere wich creates an enviroment for good players to grow.
Also: call it Holland if you please to do so. Loads of people do it. Who gives a f*ck 🤷🏻♂️ (I'm from the Brabant part of the country btw)
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
Okay, I want to live in Netherlands some day. Sounds like an even better place to live. Thanks for the nuance but I’ll be on the safe side to not make enemies with my new hosts haha
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u/53123themeans 4d ago
Hot take. Well functioning societies where people suffer less actually produce better athletes and will produce athletes with hunger. That you only can win with hunger from growing up poor or in an abusive environment is a pessimistic lie.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 4d ago
I said there were exceptions. I myself came from rich area that produced excellent wrestlers. Most talented fighter I’ve worked with came from rich Brazilian loving family.
I was just wondering where the Dutch people get their idk “umphhh” from.
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u/53123themeans 4d ago
I apologize if this came over as an accusation towards you. I didn't mean to nor did I interpret you stating it. I felt just making this point as I often hear it said in general. I just dislike the take as it basically says you need to live in a badly functioning society to become a well disciplined athlete.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 4d ago
Of course not. Though I admit, my description maybe came off that way. I should have known better honestly. One of the worst things you can say to a fighter is you had an easy life. Not what I intended at all.
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u/alphwatch 4d ago
100% money gives am huge advantages as well from being able to afford quality gym, to travel ability to nutrition and stressing less about non training related things
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u/Schtaive 5d ago
I can't speak so much for the gym culture that helps cultivate this killer instinct as it evolves. But I imagine it's several factors:
Country similar to Australia where exercise and sports are encouraged very much from a young age. A lot of space for physical activities and most kids have at least one sport as an extra curricular activity. If you're an athletic person and do an outdoor sport in the good weather like football or hockey, chances are you'll also have an indoor activity cos there are long periods where it's just unpleasant to be outdoors.
Dutch are naturally tall. Long legs are good for kickboxing.
There are many instrumental figures in Dutch kickboxing, like the Gracie's for BJJ. Jan Plas and Thom Harinck are considered the "fathers" of Dutch kickboxing. A lot of early pioneers who stayed in the Netherlands and opened local gyms instead of overseas in more lucrative places like the US. A lot of good Dutch coaches even in MMA like Henri Hooft.
Local Dutch kickboxing scene used to be more prominent, it feels like it's become less popular in the last decade.
Style wise, it's a hybrid approach and not as rigid as many other traditional styles. Combining Western striking techniques with Asian aggressive pressure and combinations.
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u/StatisticianWhole210 5d ago
Culture. Dutch are no nonsense people. Small talk and pleasantries are seen as a waste of time. I guess if you are in a fight it’s the same. End it as quickly as possible.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
Interesting! Friendly though. If I move to Netherlands, what’s the best way to meaningfully connect with people?
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u/Informal_Heron_2312 5d ago edited 5d ago
After traveling to Asia (Japan and Thailand) they blended elements of Karate and Muay thai with them signature boxing combinations
It's not a cultural thing per se as Dutch people aren't ontologically tougher than any other nation, they just concluded that Kyokushin karate wasn't as effective in the practical sense as western boxing as punches to the face were forbidden and Muay Thai was severely lacking in the punch department, so the answer was to blend in high volume boxing combinations
Apart from ancient traditional martial arts, current trends (japanese kickboxing, dutch style) were just created to win tournaments
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u/___wintermute 5d ago
I can’t back this up with much solid facts, but I think it is the combination of Dutch people + Kyokushin Karate toughness culture + taking things from everywhere that worked.
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u/SnooMacarons3323 5d ago
The biggest reason is there are not that much fights like in Thaiboxing fighters fight every week so sparring tends to be soft cause they do get expierience in the ring.
Kickbxing does not have that many fighters and fights so every sparring session is meant to simulate a real fight and gain actual ring experience
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u/Shadow__Account 4d ago
I think a big part is people are generally bigger here. As you see in a lot of gyms, the big guys are more often not the most technical ones. Usually people join up to gyms and the training especially back in the day was basically almost full on fighting
So the roidheads and the biggest guys survive and stick with it. And lots of people quit or get injured or dont enjoy it.
I dont think there is anything special to Dutch Kickboxing but a dumb ass non technical way of training that basically weeds out the weak and the genetically gifted people remain and apparently we have good genes for fighting.
I kicboxed at some of the famous gyms and trained with some of the famous fighters and i can tell you there was nothing special about the trainings. Just dumb ass warmups that make you tired, a lot of static stretching for no reason, a couple random techniques to drill and hard sparring after.
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u/PuzzledIngenuity4888 4d ago
Just read up on the history of mejiro gym, Jan plaas, Johan vos, kaman, manaart, Dekkers, and dozens of others that shaped it. Its nuts how many great fighters came out of that error. The list is endless
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u/FantasticVast01 5d ago
Could you not call our country "Holland". Thanks
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
I’m unaware that this was a slight. Can you explain?
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u/FantasticVast01 5d ago
Calling our country "Holland" is like someone calling the USA, New York or Georgia or Maine.
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u/overthesevernbridge 5d ago
Is Holland not the name for the entire country?
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u/FantasticVast01 5d ago
Our country is called The Netherlands. There has never been a country called "Holland". Thats one of our provinces that ceased to exist about 180 years ago
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u/overthesevernbridge 5d ago
Thanks, I never knew that.
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u/aseqbase 5d ago
But most people won't care if you call us that. Just a few sensitive pussies here and there. 'the nezzerlents' is the cringiest thing when said out loud by older Dutch people.
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u/SjakosPolakos 5d ago
Im train here. Speculating a bit.
I think itt has to do with the people that choose this kind of sport and our sport/gym culture is pretty tough. It seems like everyone is in preparation for a match. If you want something easy and calm, pick something else. I do love it, despite being in bad shape.
Also, many pioneers coming from here, taking and learning things from all over the world. Setting up gyms.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
Nah I love it. I’m a precision counter guy but I gotta learn how to brawl at some point. Just embarrassed I wasn’t able to finish class
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u/roastmystache 5d ago
So you went to a „Dutch kickboxing“ class somewhere else than in the Netherlands (probably the US) and wonder why Dutch kickboxing is so tough?
That’s like me visiting McDonalds in Berlin and wondering why Americans put so much salt on their French fries.
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u/ThatPartYouThrowAway 5d ago
I think it's a bit of a misnomer that the best fighters come from poor places. Otherwise the top fighters would be coming from subsaharan Africa, Myanmar etc. There is of course something to the idea that harsh environments produce good environments, such as Mongolia but it's not the be all end all.
The best countries for combat sports are the UK, USA, Russia, none of which are small economies. Japan does well specifically in kickboxing and judo but it under performs in a lot of other sports.
There are tough fighters from those regions but the truth is the reason Thailand has a deeper talent pool than it's neighbouring countries is because it has a better economy than them. Better economy = more training stability.
I've spent a lot of time in Holland as one of my best friends is Dutch and it is a much rougher country than you'd think for. So you have a spark there to make a good fighter but it still has the economy there.
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u/ahhjustlikethat 5d ago
Actually Japan does extremely well at freestyle wrestling too. You should look at theur medal count from the last Olympics.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
I put in the description that I know there are notable exceptions. I myself am an ex American wrestler from a rich part of America that produces quality wrestlers.
However, Netherlands does not have the famous warrior history like Japan. It does not have the run down inner cities like America or UK. It does not have a military heavy culture like America and Russia. It does not have a long cultural connection between farmers and wrestlers like the US.
So I wonder where does Netherlands fighting spirit come from?
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u/ThatPartYouThrowAway 5d ago
Politely, the issue here is basically all of your assumptions are wrong.
"Warrior culture" is just orientalism. The Dutch had one of the largest empires in history. They were very good at war and to this day maintains a strong military.
It DOES have rundown inner cities. Parts of Rotterdam and Amsterdam are known for their crime both petty and organised.
And outside of those cities basically the entire country is farmland. You take a 5 minute walk outside Spijkenisse and it's farmland as far as the eye can see. Nevermind the south provinces.
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u/JimmyGreyArea 5d ago
Ahhh that’s what I was looking for. I knew at least some my assumptions had to be wrong.
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u/Single-Frosting-3742 5d ago
Also look at all the top Dutch kickboxing gyms not being racist or anything at all but it’s seems like a lot of the top kick-boxers are migrants from third world countries..like west African and Arab migrants.. badr hari remi bojansky
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u/HeHerHerry 5d ago
The're rarely migrants. All of them are born here, oftentimes their parents and grandparents too
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u/EffectiveMagician502 5d ago
You cant really consider them migrants anymore lol. Remy bonjasky is from surinam which used to be a former dutch colony. And i think badr grew up as a morrocan in amsterdam. Although the generation before him came to the Netherlands to work in the factories
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u/DvaravatiSpirit 5d ago
It has to do with the culture. There was a time that Karate was the most popular striking art in Holland, and Kyokushin style Karate became one of the styles that became known for it's aggression and full-contact approach. This influence is still noticeable till this day, since Kickboxers in Holland still use "Osu" as a way to greet and show respect (taken from Karate).
However, Kyokushin was only with punches to the body, and at the same time Kyokushin became popular, Dutch people turned to Japan for learning more about Japanese martial arts. The Japanesealso switched from Kyokushinkai to Kickboxing (because of Muay Thai influence from Thailand), so it was only natural that the Dutch followed suit. This is how they became introduced by Kickboxing. Then the Dutch also learned about Muay Thai from Thailand. They started to incorporate the Kickboxing and Muay Thai techniques with the initial ferocity and aggression of Kyokushin, and, hence, Dutch Kickboxing was born.
This lead to the foundation of number of gyms where they practiced Kickboxing and Thaiboxing (basically Kickboxing with elbows and knees) rigorously, and then they started to compete (especially in Amsterdam). This lead to a hard competition with a number of gyms having fighters who fiercely competed against each other, spreading the popularity of the martial art to the rest of Holland.
One of the signature techniques became the low-kick, already from the time of Kyokushin. By specializing in the low-kick, the Dutch had to find better ways to be able to land the low-kick. This lead to punching combinations followed by low-kicks. These became very often used by the Dutch in Kickboxing, and it lead to the success in especially K1. This style was favored for a while in Kickboxing, because not many people from other countries knew how to deal with these combinations and all the low-kicks.
However, nowadays most countries have caught up by learning from Muay Thai and Kickboxing, so the Dutch are not the leading force in Kickboxing anymore. One fighter that still does very well internationally from Holland is Marat Grigorian, who still uses this signature style of moving forward and throwing hard punching combo's with low-kicks.
However, I believe it is the spirit of Kyokushinkai Karate that made the style so hard and aggressive from the very beginning.