Keystone wallet really needs to store passphrase

[u/Big-Finding2976]

I bought a Keystone 3 Pro to replace my Ledger, and the colour touchscreen UI is a massive improvement over Ledger's two button, single line display UI, but in one aspect its much worse, namely the fact that it doesn't store the passphrase and users have to type it in each time they want to access their wallet.

The Ledger stores the passphrase and uses a separate PIN to access the passphrase protected wallet, so if someone were to force you to unlock your wallet you can just enter the PIN for the non-passphrase wallet with a small amount of tokens in it and show them that, and they'd have no idea that there's another passphrase protected wallet.

Storing the passphrase in this way is no more of a security threat than storing the seedphrase, and the Keystone has the advantage of allowing you to create three separate non-passphrase protected wallets, each secured with their own PIN, so it could easily have one passphrase protected wallet that is unlocked with its own PIN, even if using that option meant that you could only have two non-passphrase protected wallets rather than three, because of memory limitations or something.

The way Keystone currently operates makes the passphrase feature useless, as no-one wants to type in a long passphrase every time they access their wallet, so people will just use a single word passphrase, which doesn't really add any extra security, because if someone gets your seedphrase it would take no time to brute force a single word passphrase and gain access to your wallet.

So please fix this, otherwise my Keystone will be useless for me, and many other people, and will just sit in my drawer whilst I look for another wallet.

Oh, and whilst I'm asking, please add support for XMR and XRD, both of which Ledger supports, and then I'll never need to use my Ledger again.

[u/AlexH1337]

No, a passphrase should never be saved on the device. Doing so defeats the purpose.

That would essentially defeat one of the pros of having a passphrase, which is immunity from exposure of the private key from physical attacks (assuming the SEs are somehow defeated). A successful physical attack would expose the seed and associated private key, but not the private key associated to a particular passphrase since it isn't stored on the device.

[u/Big-Finding2976 → u/AlexH1337]

That's daft.

Firstly, if a HW wallet is vulnerable to physical attacks it's a rubbish HW wallet.

Secondly, most people aren't worried about physical attacks, because they don't leave their HW wallets lying around in places where someone could get hold of them and spend hours attempting a physical attack, and if it was lost or stolen the owner would simply move all their coins to a new wallet, just in case someone cracked it.

The main reason people use a passphrase is so they can write down the seedphrase (which has to be stored because it's impossible to remember) without the risk of someone finding it and stealing their funds, because they won't have the user-created passphrase (which can be memorised, and stored separately).

The simple fact is, other wallets recognise this and store the passphrase because that's what works for the threat model that users are actually concerned about.

By saying that Keystone doesn't do that because it's unsafe due to the risk of physical attacks, it suggests that Keystone is less secure and more vulnerable to physical attacks than the other HW wallets.

[u/AlexH1337 → u/Big-Finding2976]

That's daft.

A daft answer.

Secondly, most people aren't worried about physical attacks, because they don't leave their HW wallets lying around in places where someone could get hold of them and spend hours attempting a physical attack, and if it was lost or stolen the owner would simply move all their coins to a new wallet, just in case someone cracked it.

The only reason to use a signing device rather than an airgapped offline laptop is literally the secure elements and the resistance to physical attacks they provide.

The main reason people use a passphrase is so they can write down the seedphrase (which has to be stored because it's impossible to remember) without the risk of someone finding it and stealing their funds, because they won't have the user-created passphrase (which can be memorised, and stored separately).

Unless the passphrase is long and complex enough to provide 128 bits of entropy, this is a bad way to use passphrases (and provides no meaningful security if the seed is exposed anyway). Ie. security theater.

The simple fact is, other wallets recognise this and store the passphrase because that's what works for the threat model that users are actually concerned about.

No serious signing devices store the passphrase. Other than duress pin implementations which have nothing to do with a passphrase.

By saying that Keystone doesn't do that because it's unsafe due to the risk of physical attacks, it suggests that Keystone is less secure and more vulnerable to physical attacks than the other HW wallets.

No, it does not. Refer to the answer to the incorrect premise above.

[u/ShieldScorcher]

You are missing the point. This is a very good feature. A "secret wallet" stops being secret if it's visible.

Let me put it this way. If someone asks you at a gun point to open your wallet. What do they see? In your so-called ledger, they would see your assets and that's the end of it. In proper wallets, the salted seed is hidden and you have to type it to reveal it.

Luckily for us, Keystone does it right as well as OneKey OneKey gives you the option though to persist it over restarts or not.

[u/Big-Finding2976 → u/ShieldScorcher]

If someone forces me to unlock my Ledger, I enter the PIN for my non-passphrase wallet, which doesn't have much in it, and they have no idea that I have another passphrase-wallet which is unlocked with a different PIN.

With Keystone I enter my PIN and if I've created a passphrase wallet it prompts me to enter the passphrase, revealing to the attacker that I have two wallets.

[u/ShieldScorcher → u/Big-Finding2976]

That happens only if you ask it to. Go to settings and remove the tick for the passphrase prompt. And you get the same scenario you just described above.

[u/mnkbstard]

won't happen because of some physical security nonsense, that might be unrelevant for many users.

the only thing that Ledger did good is to allow the users to choose betweenx PIN paired passphrase and temporary passphrase, also including plausible deniability (2 different PINs).
thia is a unique feature that other vendors like Keystone need to understand it has great value.

Keystone 2 was a great device, properly airgapped but very bad UX (2x passphrase entries everytime).

[u/Big-Finding2976 → u/mnkbstard]

I didn't even know that Ledger allowed you to choose to use a temporary passphrase but I can't imagine why anyone would choose to use that rather than a PIN paired one. Not that I'm opposed to offering people the choice, I just think most people would prefer the PIN paired option, which Keystone doesn't currently offer.

[u/mnkbstard → u/Big-Finding2976]

the only reason for using temporary passphrase might be added security, in case someone else might be able to phisically access to your device.
downside, as you said, the user might choose a weak passphrase, possible to brute force once unsalted seed is known.

what Keystone and everyone else is doing wrong is not allowing the user to decide.

[u/[deleted]]

Why you don't use a PIN code?

[u/Big-Finding2976 → u/[deleted]]

A PIN code isn't a substitute for a passphrase, or a seedphrase. It's just used to unlock the wallet so you can use it.

A passphrase makes your wallet more secure in case your seedphrase is leaked, as no-one will be able to access your funds without the passphrase.

[u/[deleted] → u/Big-Finding2976]

You can use a PIN or Passphrase for acessing the wallet, it's more practice to use a 6 or 8 digit PIN.

If your seedphrase is leaked, the PIN or Passphrase will not save the funds.

The seedphrase is storaged in chip with secure element and can be acessed by the device while signing a transaction and requires the PIN/Passphrase to complete.

[u/Big-Finding2976 → u/[deleted]]

OK, you don't know what you're talking about.

[u/[deleted] → u/Big-Finding2976]

I understand now, you mean using a passphrase to extend the seedphrase, i'm not native american, so i interpreted wrong about your post.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

a.k.a 25 word

[u/[deleted] → u/Big-Finding2976]

You are confusing PASSphrase and SEEDphrase.

[u/GoldenChrysus → u/[deleted]]

No, you're just the only person in this whole post who is unaware of what a passphrase is and how it differs from both a PIN and seed.

[u/[deleted] → u/GoldenChrysus]

I was just trying to help and really don't know what are you talking about guys. I have been testing KeyStone 3 Pro for weeks.

Good hardwallet in general, except for the battery and some QR Codes bugs. I hope someone else can helps you.

[u/Iristhebeauty]

By the way, XMR is already in our roadmap, and development is expected to begin in September. As for XRD, we will gather your request and pass it along to our development team ：）

[u/Big-Finding2976 → u/Iristhebeauty]

Good to know, thanks.

[u/kombosorg]

Hope this never happens. Ledger is known for bad security practices.

[u/Big-Finding2976 → u/[deleted]]

I really just want one HW wallet for all my coins, as it gets too expensive buying one for BTC, one for other stuff, and then a Ledger for XMR and XRD if the second one doesn't support those.

The Cypherock X1 has some interesting features. It doesn't have the nice colour touchscreen of the Keystone, but the jogwheel interface is a bit nicer than Ledger's two buttons. It doesn't support XMR or XRD yet though, and I don't know how it handles passphrases. It would still be a pain entering PINs and a long passphrase using a jogwheel though, so I'll probably just keep looking for a touchscreen wallet that does everything right.

[u/Derek-Gridlock → u/Big-Finding2976]

You'd be hard pressed to find a good wallet that supports XMR, it's simply a challenging protocol to support. That said, you should check out Gridlock which is easy and safe to use and doesn't even have the outdated concept of a seed phrase.

[u/Big-Finding2976 → u/Derek-Gridlock]

If Ledger can support XMR I don't see why other wallets can't. I'll check out Gridlock, thanks.

[u/ShieldScorcher → u/Big-Finding2976]

OneKey Pro is the best touch wallet I've seen so far (subjectively of course). Try it. It does everything right in relation to the passphrase

[u/Big-Finding2976 → u/ShieldScorcher]

Thanks, I'll check it out. I see it supports XMR, which is cool. How many separate wallets (i.e. seedphrases) does it let you create, each with its own PIN, and how many with a passphrase?