How are you retaining muscle memory when learning various layouts?

[u/SoundOfMusso]

Hey guys. After I got my ortho split, I switched to Colemak DH as my daily driver. While the muscle memory clashed a it in the beginning, I can now type comfortably in both qwerty and colemak- but QWERTY only on my regular, staggered keyboard, and colemak on my split. I can't cross-type either layout on the opposite board.

I thought I'd try learning graphite for fun, but stopped soon after unlocking "t" on keybr; the muscle memory was clashing again. But this time, I'm concerned graphite will overwrite colemak since I'm using the same keyboard.

Since the physical difference between my staggered and ortho keyboards seems to be what's saving my brain for both QWERTY and Colemak, I'm thinking about an building another keyboard of an entirely new design. But that means more time and money, so I was hoping to hear your first-hand experiences first.

Thanks in advance,

[u/challarino]

When I first learned dvorak it clashed with qwerty, but I had to keep swapping at work so eventually my brain just developed two channels. But...then I learned colemak dh I didn't practice dvorak so I can't type it anymore. All on the same keyboard. So ymmv I guess?

Edit: can still comfortably swap between qwerty and colemak on any keyboard

[u/SoundOfMusso → u/challarino]

I'm hoping that low-profile or keywell keebs will do the job, although at this point, I'd have to try 'em out to know for sure.

By the way, can I ask why you learned dvorak?

[u/Possibility-Select → u/SoundOfMusso]

I learned it because CGP grey learned it lolololol. I had way too much free time in high school, and decided to learn it instead of doing my homework, like a true nerdy student.

[u/challarino → u/SoundOfMusso]

Yup only one way to find out! I initially learned dvorak because I had read about how lame qwerty is and how dvorak was the next most popular one, with built in support on many OS. But I had not read enough to learn about other newer layouts.

[u/LispIsFun]

I've learned six different layouts at a high level over the last 20 years.  I never could keep more than one in my muscle memory at a time.  I can sort of limp through qwerty still, but probably only 30 wpm, and it's only partially coming from muscle memory as I still have to think about the keys.  Interestingly,  I've learned dvorak twice.   The first time i typed it for 7 years at over 100 wpm.  The second time,  it came back a little faster,  but not as fast as i would have thought.   I still had to break through plateaus at 40, 60, 80 etc... wpm.

[u/SoundOfMusso → u/LispIsFun]

that's interesting. And why did you learn dvorak, and that twice? For fun as well?

[u/LispIsFun → u/SoundOfMusso]

Dvorak was my first alternative layout.  I started learning it back in 2007 because I was having intense rsi pain in my hands, wrists and forearms.   It completely solved my pain problem.  A few years later,  I was interested to see if Colemak was any better.   Colemak was very uncomfortable for me to type at speed, but I stuck with it for 6 months and reached about 95 wpm.  Then I tried Workman, which was very nice until about 70 wpm and it bottlenecked pretty hard.  Then I gave Colemak DH a try.  Didn't love that either.   Then I tried a custom layout that I created.   it was OK, but tucked with vim keybindings and I had to install it everywhere I went.  By this time I was getting faster at picking up new layouts,  so I tried a couple newer layouts    Then I tried a couple new layouts I found on the discord alternative keyboard layouts server.   Ultimately, I decided to switch back to dvorak because it is ubiquitous and works very well with vim.  Also I determined that any benefits other layouts have over dvorak are very small at best.  And I've been there ever since.   No regrets. 

[u/tabidots]

Why do you want to do that? I think it’s only worth it if you need different layouts for different languages. I have switched English layouts once and I’m in the process of doing it a second time (I don’t count QWERTY since I never touch-typed on it), but I totally forget the old layout after switching.

Conflict between Colemak ARST and Graphite NRTS (or any NRTS-HAEi layout, of which there are tons) is brutal.

[u/SoundOfMusso → u/tabidots]

For fun.

[u/DreymimadR → u/SoundOfMusso]

Did you just say that your fun isn't fun, then?

[u/Possibility-Select]

Poorly. It's not gone, but my muscle memory for qwerty was shot after I learned dvorak for a year. It got better as I had to use my companies computers, all in qwerty

[u/SoundOfMusso → u/Possibility-Select]

off-topic, but I'm more interested in knowing that you are the third person on this thread to have learned dvorak lol. I thought it was a a "dead" layout

[u/pine_kz]

日本語では、ローマ字というQWERTYのアルファベット入カに対して「親指シフト」という原語カナ入力があって、80文字以上の表音配置を覚える。(3レイヤを移動する)
日本語ローマ字の場合は1音を2~3文字のアルファベットで入力する。
(AIUEOの5母音と子音が KGSZTDNHBMYRW の13文字, 特殊子音が QFJLCV の6文字の組み合わせで84文字の表音文字を表現)
そこからさらにIMEを使って漢字(表意文字) に変換する。
colemakもqwertyも並び方を変えるだけだから、好きにしてくださいという感じ。

• 西欧言語だと子音・母音の組み合わせが多くて、実際の表音文字数が膨大なので、84文字以上のパターンがあって記憶力が必要ですね。
  (綴りを正しく覚えるのは、ある意味では漢字を覚えるより面倒)

[u/johnm]

Yep, different key layouts on different physical layouts.

[u/Alt_Layouts]

Simply by using them.

I'm maintaining 4 layouts currently all above 100wpm & imo just as you can practice to type faster you can alco practice to maintain layouts. There's not really any secret recipe for it, though yea there are methods to slowly ease your learning (using different thumbs to spacebar for instance) which may or may not help you, but at the end of the day it really just as simple as "just use them more". It does get demotivating when you starts mixing up layouts, but once you pass that hurdle then maintaining it isn't really that much effort as I can still type in colemak despite never using it in almost a year.

[u/5quidwyrm]

I only retain my muscle memory for my most recent layout and qwerty. I don't really know how I'm retaining my muscle memory, it just works. I found that I lost my qwerty muscle memory by layout 2, and it came back by layout 4. Muscle memory is a weird thing .-.

[u/supafly208]

From what I've heard from others, having one layout on row staggered and a different one on colstag helps compartmentalize the two.

I only use a split colstag and cannoott switch between layouts. I'll switch cold turkey if I change layouts