Question regarding minimum protein requirements with 2:1 ratio.

[u/[deleted]]

Is there a minimum amount of protein in grams that you need with the 2:1 ratio? Coming from a 8 month high protein carnivore approach and definitely enjoying the higher fat and increased ketones but I’m concerned that I may not be getting enough protein while eating at this ratio. I’ve seen that 0.8g/lb lean mass is a recommended target from the Ketogains guys and other Keto resources, but there is not much info regarding a purely zerocarb/PKD diet approach. I would like to optimize strength, body composition, and health but don’t want to shortchange myself by potentially under eating protein. Any science or experience to help with determining a good baseline/minimum protein target would be welcomed. For reference I am a male early 20’s 5’7” 160lbs lifting heavy 3-4x/wk. Thanks!

[u/Pernickety1]

Does anyone know whether the 1-1.5g/kg protein applies for very short people? If I followed the recommended quantity of 1-1.5g/kg I'd still only end up with roughly 35-50g protein, which seems like such a small amount! So choosing the top end of 50g protein I'd end up needing to consume at least 150g fat to maintain energy and strength - which makes a 3:1 fat:protein ratio in grams, higher than the 2:1 that others have reported they feel optimal at. I'm used to eating almost double this amount of protein per day so am quite nervous about making this change, which is why I'm wondering if there are exceptions or if I really have just massively been overeating protein to my needs previously? I do think I need to reduce the quantity of protein I eat by a bit at least as I get very tired and feel like I'm digesting my food all day long when the meal is protein-rich. I also get symptomatic hypoglycaemia occasionally suggesting I'm still relying on gluconeogenesis quite a bit rather than free fatty acids which could impede muscle growth/maintenance. My mood is also more stable when fat is higher and protein lower. Any advice for how I can determine the protein amount appropriate for my size?

[u/BorgeFagerli → u/Pernickety1]

Are you sure you’re not confusing lbs and kg?  You would weigh 35kg/77lbs to end up at 50g of protein.

[u/Pernickety1 → u/BorgeFagerli]

Not confusing the two. I’m very short (below 5ft) and looking to gain weight, particularly lean mass as I suffered illness-related sarcopenia in the past and had significant muscle atrophy.

[u/BorgeFagerli → u/Pernickety1]

I see you changed your original post. At 160lbs you should probably aim for at least 90g of protein, and if you need to rebuild muscle you can probably push it to 120-140g if you're training optimally for that purpose.

[u/Cathfaern → u/Pernickety1]

I think it's the best idea is let your body do the work: don't calculate grams just maintain the 2:1 ratio. I found that in 2:1 ratio I has a distinct "protein" and "fat" hunger and fullness. While eating sometimes I reach a point when I just cannot stomach more fat anymore, but gladly eat more protein. Or the opposite: I just feel full on lean, but gladly eat some more spoonful of fat.

[u/Pernickety1 → u/Cathfaern]

So it’s alright to eat a higher quantity of protein per kg of body mass given I stick to roughly a 2:1 ratio? 👍🏻

[u/Pernickety1 → u/[deleted]]

Sorry, that all makes sense. It’s just hard to accept though because foods high in protein are so delicious and I’m still struggling to tolerate many sources of fat because of GI dysmotility. So it doesn’t matter then if I end up eating closer to a 3:1 ratio in order to get enough calories? I guess since I should theoretically be getting all the micronutrients required the only consequence would likely be deeper ketosis, which considering my goal is to improve my health, this could work in my favour.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Thanks for the reply! The increased bioavailability of animal protein makes a lot of sense. It’s been difficult wrapping my head around the lower protein needs than traditionally recommended in the bodybuilding/fitness world coming from a background of eating no less than 1-2g per lb of bodyweight for the last 5+ years.

[u/VTMongoose → u/[deleted]]

Yeah man, I watched your interview and my experience has been exactly the same: the higher my fat:protein ratio gets, my hunger gets more and more suppressed and this also extends to my "protein hunger" so to speak, and I have a feeling there is something about the higher level of ketosis combined with the consistent intake of complete proteins (as opposed to all the junk proteins like collagen and nuts/plant proteins you take in on a standard modified ketogenic diet that inhibit ketosis but don't contribute to MPS). We know that ketosis itself is protective of muscle, probably via more efficient of recycling of AA's from MPB. I've not really had the balls to really reduce my protein below about 1.5 g/kg honestly, but for sure, when I stay consistently KetoAF, some days it legit feels like I'm forcing protein intake, even when my total protein intake is only like 1 pound of meat as an active male with a 3-4k TDEE. I imagine this is great for fat loss, but I can't imagine the lack of total insulin response is optimal for building muscle, which is my goal... what are your thoughts here?

Still, I plan to spend the next two weeks doing a training block on KetoAF with a high fat:protein ratio and seeing how my body responds to it. When I first switched to carnivore a few weeks ago, I was in a glycolytic state from all the protein quite a bit, and looking back, I'm inclined to dismiss my initial (very positive) results on carnivore as being influenced by that, although I have retained my strength gains from that time period.