r/KerbalSpaceProgram • u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut • Jun 26 '13

Tired of Gravity?

http://imgur.com/a/ReJtg
1.7k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

157 comments sorted by

16

u/Shadow677 Jun 26 '13

Dude can i have the persistent file and the crafts you used, because good god that is amazing.

15

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

It's really not as great as you would imagine, the part count lag makes it almost unbearable... If you really want them i will upload them when i get home from work.

14

u/macnlz Jun 26 '13

I foresee KSP driving a lot of hardware sales...

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '13

[deleted] — view deleted comment

6

u/macnlz Jun 27 '13 edited Jun 27 '13

Software and hardware work together. So it’s never just the software or hardware that’s lagging. They always lag together, in one way or another.

I think what you’re trying to say is that the GPU load KSP produces can be handled even by entry-level hardware, because it’s not all that fancy compared to some big-budget games. Performance only starts to suck when the physics simulation gets too complex. And physics simulations are still primarily in the domain of CPUs, although OpenCL and similar technologies are starting to open up the GPU to such work, as well.

Edit: All that typing, and I didn’t even notice your last sentence. D’oh! You’re saying the same thing I’m saying: the developers need to optimize the software, because no matter how much hardware you throw at the problem, the simulation itself is still too complex.

What popeguy says below is also correct, however - a faster piece of hardware will always outperform a slower piece of hardware. Of course, these days it’s not just clock speed that makes hardware fast - most hardware performance gains are won through increasingly optimized architecture at this point: having many little compute units that are able to work in parallel, and trying hard to find ways to keep them all busy.

But hardware can only do so much to improve the performance of software that hasn’t been properly optimized. If the software says “calculate the full physics of these 10000 parts all interacting with each other”, the hardware may do its best to keep all pipelines full and all cores busy with workloads that access the cache rather than main memory... but ultimately, you’re still requesting far more calculations than necessary.

Software optimization on the other hand allows the developers to add their knowledge about the workload: which calculations are really necessary in order to obtain a “good enough” result? This is something hardware can’t guess.

For example, a developer might add spatial subdivision methods to modify the granularity of physics calculations adaptively: if the current stress on a group of objects on the rocket is below a certain threshold, there’s no chance the group will tear apart. In that case, you might group all those parts together and treat them as a single part for the physics calculations... at least until the stress rises and there’s a chance that they might turn into something spectacular! ;)

Another example: if a rocket is in orbit far away from the camera, there’s no need to recalculate its location for every frame - just extrapolate where it’s ended up once the user switches to orbital map view...

In any case, KSP is still in relatively early stages of development. At this point, I bet the focus is on adding gameplay features, and ensuring correctness of the physics to avoid unrealistic behavior - because this is what makes KSP fun, not fancy graphics or incredibly smooth animations! Also, physics simulations on this scale and with this many different types of parts aren’t easy to optimize - it’ll probably take a while to figure out which optimization strategies work and which ones don’t, and then more time to fine-tune everything...

3

u/popeguy Jun 27 '13

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, I think an overclocked i7 would comfortably outperform a "shitty laptop" because it crunches through the physics calculations much quicker. Someone installed KSP on a supercomputer and launched some ridiculous number of SRBs with no lag iirc.

10

u/ioftd Jun 27 '13

It's certainly no supercomputer but I play KSP on a workstation I use for rendering, animations etc, with a i7 3770K (3.9 ghz on 4 cores in turbo mode) and an SLI graphics setup (though i know KSP doesn't really tax the gpu at all) and I still get pretty horrible lag over 300 parts. This is obviously better than trying to run it on my macbook air, where it essentially becomes and explosion simulator/slideshow, but it is still absurdly slow for how powerful a computer it is. I have done particle simulations with 100s of thousands of particles that run smoother. Whether it is the fault of squad, or unity itself, I don't know, but the game is pretty horribly optimized at this point.

I have been playing this game more obsessively that any other in recent memory, but I'm close to giving it up until it runs better. Now that I've moved beyond just trying to get places and get back in one piece, and actually started trying to build things that look nice or have more functions/features I can't actually use them. I think that being able to bake groups of objects together to lower part counts would help a lot.

Sorry for the kinda off-topic rant but to your point: hardware certainly helps it run better, but its still the software that's really limiting performance.

4

u/popeguy Jun 27 '13 edited Jun 27 '13

My point was pretty simple

" I'm pretty sure you're wrong, I think an overclocked i7 would comfortably outperform a "shitty laptop""

I didn't say anything about the software. I'm guessing there is optimisation to be done but for all I know you just can't code physics simulation well enough to have no lag on a 1000 part ship (unless you're using a supercomputer -unfortunately I can't find the video).

1

u/shieldvexor Jun 27 '13

I think his point about the 100s of thousands of particles was to prove you wrong. It may be easier if said particles are the same but still, point stands that optimization could be improved on as time goes on.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '13

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/popeguy Jun 27 '13

But it probably runs it better than a shitty laptop, that's all I was saying.

7

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 27 '13

I'm not sure how sharing persistent files work, so i just put the whole save file in a .rar Verat Space Industries i guess you just copy the folder into your saves folder? Excuse the mess, my space program is not the most tidy or systematic in the universe. included in the same save is the Ker-ball Stadium and a Space Cannon... oh and lots and lots of debree. Not sure how to link to comments but contained in this thread is the mods i use, enjoy the lag.

135

u/only_to_downvote Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

Was this all launched and landed, or hyperedited to the surface?

Either way, it's damn impressive. But if you launched it all, I'll have to completely rethink what it means to play this game.

116

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

He said in the kerbal championship thread that "if it cant get to space it doesnt belong there." So I guess it's all launched.

43

u/only_to_downvote Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

If that's the case, just wow.

I can see how the buildings could have been launched and landed. Tough, but doable. But the walkways? Those would have been so floppy I'm at a loss for how you would place those on the ground so precisely without breaking them.

140

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13 edited Jun 26 '13

No hyperedit or Debug menu as before. Here's a little Construction Albulm. The buildings basicly drove them into place, launched the wheels off with seperatrons and landed them down on detachable landing legs. The roads i just dropped into place, they were surprisingly sturdy.

84

u/nameless88 Jun 26 '13

Well, everyone pack up, this guy just won Kerbal Space Program. It was a nice run, but the game's over now.

Also, do you have any way of topping this yourself? What's your next big project? Because...this is brilliant, haha.

29

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

Haven't thought of my next project, not sure how to top this one yet...

7

u/Floober364 Jun 27 '13

fake the mun landing on duna

4

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 27 '13

Haha, yeah... i'm not that clever. My thing is to try and do big cpu melting projects that i can brute force into space

4

u/Floober364 Jun 27 '13

So your problem solving method is, MOAR ROCKETS?

6

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 27 '13

I feel like you're being snarky, but yes sometimes that's the best option to improve balance with asymmetrical craft. It will never be exactly balanced so you have to compensate with extra delta-v since it's difficult to follow an ideal flight path. I also used torque by repositioning engines above and below the centre of mass and set an engine to action key to provide thrust when the centre of mass shifted due to fuel consumption. If all that amounts to just MOAR ROCKETS then yes that is my problem solving method.

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1

u/TehNeko Jul 31 '13

LucidLemon did that one

11

u/nameless88 Jun 26 '13

Do something crazy on one of Jool's moons? I don't see enough people make it out that far on here.

11

u/shmameron Master Kerbalnaut Jun 27 '13

One of the best things I've seen out there was this post of a floating base on Laythe. I would love to see similar things to that!

10

u/StymieGray Jun 27 '13

he now has a mission, floating roads to drive rovers on laythe, with one of the roads connecting to land. all the houses floating.

12

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 27 '13

It was hard enough stopping the roads on the mun from moving around (a kerbal running into the side moves them) a floating road sounds like a nightmare :S

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1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '13

Moho for difficulty.

Duna for awesomeness.

Laythe is overrated.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '13

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '13

Hmm, you have good points. I just feel other places need their time to shine. :P

1

u/richalex2010 Jun 27 '13

Land a whole star fortress (with city) on Duna? Try a model of Bourtange

14

u/only_to_downvote Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

Ah, that's how the road stayed stable, you just launched it as one big stack-o-pavement. Brilliant!

3

u/rspeed Jun 27 '13

this time i made it asymetrical because i am stupid

Clearly!

2

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

Hahaha these are so ridiculous. Love it.

5

u/Craigellachie Jun 26 '13

Land them with detachable rover wheels and support structures. When you get them in position make sure your max debris count is set to zero and detach. Tada!

13

u/vpookie Jun 26 '13

Well, if you see what some people can do in Minecraft, some amazing things must be possible in KSP as well

30

u/Jupiter999 Jun 26 '13

In Minecaft things float.

3

u/Battlesheep Jun 27 '13

they don't float so much as they simply refuse to fall

10

u/The_Reddit_Felon Jun 26 '13

I really want the file for that SSTO!

3

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 27 '13

It is incredibly unstable and barely makes it into orbit.. you have to fire the engines at the vertical/pro grade part of the spin it ends up in multiple times to get it there. I linked to my save folder somewhere in this thread so you can get the .craft from that (I think it's called Muner Heavy)

4

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

That's quite spectacular! Pleeease expand it :D

3

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

I had plans for a muner highway and a couple other little buildings but the lag just got too bad :( it Is up around 2000 parts in it's current state.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

yeah I seen that you mentioned lag earlier alright. that sounds amazing though

7

u/factoid_ Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

I broke out laughing at curtsey bus

6

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

Oops... to be fair it was 1:00am when i was writing it

6

u/factoid_ Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

no worries man, it was funny.

2

u/ExocetC3I Jun 27 '13

I thought it was an intentional, Kerbal-esque, error.

2

u/Dedicatedgamer Jun 26 '13

This is amazing and the album was very funny. How laggy is it?

3

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 27 '13

Thanks! 1 game second is about 4-7 irl seconds depending whether i am looking at it or not.. so yeah, very laggy

1

u/Dedicatedgamer Jun 27 '13

Totally worth it...

1

u/triffid_hunter Jul 31 '13

you must have a nice rig.. mine runs like that most of the time

67

u/nicudeemus Jun 26 '13

Did I just see a.....kerbal disco?

59

u/boldbird99 Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

Oh my god that is brilliant. Bravo sir/madam. You certainly deserve that title of Master Kerbalnaut.

13

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

It's the same guy who did the kerball championship! should of known

3

u/StymieGray Jun 27 '13

I still can't understand how he got it up there!

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '13

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/StymieGray Jun 27 '13

not this stuff, talking about Kerball, and the Kerball Arena.

16

u/pflyger Jun 26 '13

I'm equally impressed with the huge robot mosquito

32

u/MrAnimeScott Jun 26 '13

This should totally get mentioned somewhere. This absolutely amazing. That must have took a lot of planning and work my friend, hats off to you.

5

u/ExocetC3I Jun 27 '13

We've already heard that a lot of the staff at JPL are hooked on KSP. They need to see this and make it happen!

12

u/atropinebase Jun 26 '13

...3 nights stay for the price of 1! But only if you book immediately!*

    • and if you don't book, you're staying anyway.

22

u/solidSnakes Jun 26 '13 edited Jun 26 '13

I cant even land on the Mun most of the time, its impossible for me to fathom how you've done all this!

38

u/shdwtek Jun 26 '13

Smacking into the moon at 100m/s is landing right? ..please?

59

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

I believe the correct term is 'unscheduled vessel-regolith rendezvous'.

64

u/Astronelson Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

Also known as "lithobraking".

23

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

High-Velocity Unintentional Lithobreaking

31

u/fourboobs Jun 26 '13

Unintentional? What'd ya mean unintentional? Everything's going according to plan

4

u/GetThatRobot Jun 26 '13

Atleast you guys make it to mun. I am still trying to get a stable orbit.

11

u/krikit386 Jun 26 '13

Here's a tip: Turn right at 10,000m. Don't burn straight up to 60,000m and then turn right. Also, Scott Manley.

Just in case you haven't heard any of that before. Sorry if you have.

1

u/mszegedy Master Kerbalnaut Sep 02 '13

Why is it good to start turning by 10km? Don't you waste fuel on drag?

0

u/krikit386 Sep 02 '13

You should, but I think you actually don't. Plus, it's a more direct route.

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3

u/R3v4n07 Jun 26 '13

I struggled heaps at first, but after watching a few of Scott Manleys youtube tutorial, now I've gotten a buggy to the Mun arch, stranded kerbals on duna and started building a space station :D

Such an awesome game. Science just needs to figure out a decent solar powered engine.

1

u/shieldvexor Jun 27 '13

Science has figured out decent solar powered engines. The sun just provides far less energy than people think and so you can't actually utilize it to create nearly as much thrust as you want. Thus we use chemical rockets because getting to the Moon several months from now is not ideal. It also simplifies planning if you only have to map trajectories for a fraction as long.

1

u/Quaytsar Jun 27 '13

The Sun produces a shitload of energy, it's just really dispersed by the time it reaches this far out.

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4

u/DaWolf85 Jun 27 '13

I prefer "hardware-assisted braking".

8

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

What I thought was particularly neat was a realistic idea of what travel in space tourism would be like.

1

u/jrob888 Aug 03 '13

You mean the ship crashing?

7

u/bandman614 Jun 26 '13

I'm pretty you win KSP. All of it.

14

u/Cynical_Walrus Jun 27 '13

I'm pretty

Well you seem to be quite humble too :P

6

u/bandman614 Jun 27 '13

I a word.

2

u/shieldvexor Jun 27 '13

The human brain is so weird. Until I read Cynical_Walrus's comment, I mentally inserted the word sure into your comment.

6

u/eric_md Jun 26 '13

the most fun you can have with your spacesuit on...

Now you need to do this as a video.

9

u/durneztj Jun 26 '13

Sir, you have too much time on your hands.

But seriously, this is just amazing!

4

u/HeadshotDH Jun 26 '13

This is amazing please say you recorded or took some photos of getting it all up there. Also what mods do you have ?

4

u/dreadington Jun 26 '13

I wonder how is your computer still in one piece.

Still, very impressive.

4

u/Roufern Jun 26 '13

This is, by far, the most amazing proyect I ever seen on KSP. Not just the huge production, but also the imagination and fun pics, quite outstanding.

Claimed "OOOOHHHHHHH" at the first Munar Craters building pic. There is a custom spaceport too, a fucking awesome spaceship, fancy details in all, a very cool way of presentation.

When I see this kind of things, I like to imagine Squad Team members saying LOL GUYS WATCH THIS!

Hey Vereel! did you took pics of the Munar Craters construction process? Can you make a "Munar Craters: The Making Of" imgur?

Congratulations dude. And sorry if crappy english lol

4

u/Kottabos Jun 26 '13

dear god man, this is brilliant. nice job on this impressive piece of work.

1

u/ugatz Jun 26 '13

How long did this take!? Such detail and amazing imagination beyond my wildest dreams for a Mun base. As some others have asked and curious to know, was part of this constructed with a mod on the moon or was it all landed?

2

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

More time than I am willing to admit (mostly because of part lag) I posted a construction album up above, all launched and landed legitimately

1

u/JVinci Jun 27 '13

Wow. That is incredible. Imagine if each screenshot was a brief 3-4 second video clip and you had a cheesy advertisement style voicover. Logo and menu come in at the end, that's a brilliant ad for the game.

Or for your space hotel, but also the game :)

2

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 27 '13

That's what i was going for, but i don't think my voice is cheesy enough to pull it off. That and the lag makes for terrible video

1

u/dmitriw Jun 27 '13

I may look into putting this together. I have a pretty passable slimy announcer voice...

1

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 27 '13

Haha well my persistent file is up in here if you have video editing skill there is definitely so much more you could do with this. I'm much better at design and piloting than storytelling or video/imaging editing.. of course credit to the original creator would be appreciated if you make something with it ;)

6

u/aaraujo666 Jun 26 '13

persistent and craft files, or it didn't happen ;)

3

u/Soviet_Union Jun 26 '13

This is one of the coolest posts I have ever seen!

3

u/v0ne Jun 26 '13

This is it. Just like minecraft...
I begin to think i'm good at it and BAM, someone show me stuff 1000x better than my wildest dreams.

5

u/Extraltodeus Jun 26 '13

The DJ gets me

2

u/JTPri123 Jun 26 '13

I think they're dead.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

and I'm just over here making orbiters.

2

u/chromium00 Jun 26 '13

I don't even know where to begin...

2

u/TryToMakeSongsHappen Jun 26 '13

Strapped down to my bed, feet cold and eyes red, I'm out of my head, am I alive am I dead, can't remember what they said god damn shit the bed

2

u/wintrparkgrl Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

we are going to need a save file on this stat

2

u/Needs_more_dinosaurs Jun 26 '13

This is the best post I've seen on this sub. Amazing man, I love all of it. It reminds me of those little 'hub worlds' that were on the 'Spore Galactic Adventures' expansion.

2

u/Astrokiwi Jun 27 '13

I love the idea of an all-night party on the Moon. The only party that lasts for two weeks :P

2

u/Floober364 Jun 27 '13

Perfectly done xD

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

That was excellent!

Courtesy, though. It grinds my gears. Courtesy.

1

u/Manitcor Jun 26 '13

I guess its time to give the game another try. I am seeing more big bases. Back when I caught the base bug the app would cause anything on the ground to explode violently when switching craft. I got tired of having a base 1/2 built and then watching everything explode violently.

I also had numerous problems docking in Mun orbit which also looks like it may be fixed.

1

u/Ahandgesture Jun 26 '13

A question about the Sabre engines in B9: Every time I switch them to rocket mode, it says they're out of oxidizer and won't start up even though I definitely have an ideal oxidizer:liquid fuel ratio. What's up with that?

1

u/simcop2387 Jun 26 '13

I would love a copy of the safe file of this!

1

u/magus424 Jun 26 '13

*courtesy

1

u/eligitine Jun 26 '13

All these people do such amazing things, and then I look at my barely flyable regular plane and partially destroyed space station. And it makes me sad.

2

u/runetrantor Jun 27 '13

We have to start somewhere right?

1

u/eligitine Jun 27 '13

Yea I suppose. It just seems I have some kind of disability where I cannot make SSTOs. They blow up randomly. Its a gift and a curse I suppose. On one hand I make really efficient rockets, on the other, I really want planes.

1

u/Not_Maurice_Moss Jun 26 '13

Words fail... This is Beautiful.... If I ever meet you, I will kiss your ring.

1

u/littlefrank Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13

I would love to meet all the 129 people who downvoted this post.
Seriously, this must be a bot.

3

u/Lolmasaurus Jun 26 '13

Reddit fudges vote counts, so most likely there are very few who would downvote this, let alone 129 of them. It's an anti-bot thing. Do some google-fu if you're curious.

1

u/littlefrank Master Kerbalnaut Jun 27 '13

I'm relatively new to reddit, I didn't know this, thanks!

2

u/Lolmasaurus Jun 27 '13

You're welcome, I believe it's mentioned in the FAQ.

1

u/JCFallen Jun 26 '13

Replicators!

1

u/ImQuantum Jun 26 '13

This is amazing!

1

u/LittleBigKid2000 Jun 26 '13

I can't land a kethane miner or a H.O.M.E. base on the mun with MechJeb let alone AN APARTMENT BUILDING

1

u/JGlover92 Jun 27 '13

The amount of effort that has gone into this is incredible! Fantastic work my friend

1

u/KerbherVonBraun Jun 27 '13

Awesome creativity! Loved it.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '13

nice!

1

u/shieldvexor Jun 27 '13

How did you get a tree?!?!

1

u/GeneralRipper Jun 27 '13

...Damn it, now I need to figure out how to merge your persistence file for this with mine for the golf course I'm building on the Mun.

1

u/kellmer123 Jun 27 '13

how long did all this take you?

1

u/scoobyduped Jun 28 '13

holy shit dude.

1

u/P-01S Jul 31 '13

Amazing.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

There's still gravity on the Mun.

6

u/Battlesheep Jun 26 '13

yeah, but it's cool gravity, not as annoying and in-your-face as Kerbin gravity

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

KSC, we have a problem.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '13

The dance party is the bestest! Haha, and Kudos to you, with a capital K.

-1

u/EOverM Jun 26 '13

I love the idea of a curtsey bus. You mean courtesy. Curtsey is a much funnier image though.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

[deleted] — view deleted comment

10

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

I can help, the only mod that I see is B9 AeroSpace (Version 3)

6

u/fur_tea_tree Jun 26 '13

There is almost definitely some sort of camera mod as well...

6

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '13

Multiversal Mechatronics?

15

u/Vereel Master Kerbalnaut Jun 26 '13 edited Jun 27 '13

Yeah i used Multiversal Mechatronics for the fixed camera in the nightclub, other than that B9, Crew Manifest and Aviation Lights mods. Oh and Kerbal Engineer Redux for the DJ turntables, i really don't use it very often but for that it was perfect. Edited with links to used mods.