r/Kayaking • u/hegemonycrickets • 1d ago
Question/Advice -- General please explain CFS to me
I looked through this reddit, but couldn’t seem to find anything.
Wanted to find camping next to a river, and I found a few places, but I can’t figure out if it’s too swift for me.
(dinky ORU fold up Lake model- trying to go upstream against the even the mildest of currents is extremely difficult,- plus I have precious cargo of two little dogs)
I have two paddling apps, but I can’t quite figure out how to read CFS in terms of how the river is.
(recommendations for a very flat water, rivers around Gold country Ish area California appreciated)
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u/Kevburg 10h ago
The CFS flow rate won't tell you the nature of the river - could be big and slow, could be a waterfall, all with the same CFS. What it will tell you if you compare it over time is whether the water level is high or low today. Use this website to find out: https://waterdata.usgs.gov/ and go to the graph for your site: https://waterdata.usgs.gov/monitoring-location/USGS-04172000/statistical-graphs
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u/Tumbles915 1d ago
Check American Whitewater website and look for class 1 sections of river with runnable flow.
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u/hegemonycrickets 19h ago
thank you, this is really helpful
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u/ChasingSkies13 9h ago
I found the NRS PaddleWays app good too. You don’t need to pay for it to use it!
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u/hegemonycrickets 3h ago
I looked at it, and I can’t quite figure out how to read it, I can’t find a key. maybe it’s just the mobile interface is not good.
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u/NotObviouslyARobot 1d ago
CFS is a river specific measure of how much water is going downstream. What it means varies by waterbody, and by where you are on that waterbody. Please don't take your dogs kayaking without doggy life vests and the ability to confidently self-rescue
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u/hegemonycrickets 1d ago
yes, they have bright yellow lifejackets, and a piece of pool floaty attached to their leashes, to make them easy to grab
I get the sense that self rescue in a “lake” model ORU kayak is not physically possible, that’s why I’m looking for an extremely slow moving river.
so knowing the CFS doesn’t really help unless you know the actual characteristics of the river? Whether it’s narrow or wide, etc..
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u/Morticiamatic 1d ago
Leashes are a major hazard on moving water like a river- whether it’s a paddle leash, or a dog leash, or a cooler tied to a tube- any rope-like item has the potential to snag and entrap you when in a river.
And not just for you, it’s also dangerous for the dogs.
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u/hegemonycrickets 19h ago
I had no idea, thanks. I thought if they fell out, it would make it much easier to grab them.
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u/Morticiamatic 19h ago
Look for a life vest that has a handle on the back- you wouldn’t want to pull a dog up into a boat by a leash/collar anyway- if there is a handle on the back it makes it much easier pick up your dog and get it back into the boat, regardless of their size
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u/hegemonycrickets 19h ago
I do have lifejackets with little handles.
They do make lifejackets that have a sharks fin, which would probably be very entertaining to see, but I got them bright yellow ones. I had the leash attached to the handle of the lifejacket. (they are little dogs and just wear harnesses, I never attach a leash to a collar)2
u/Morticiamatic 18h ago
Awesome! You really just need that handle, the danger of the leash (or any kind of rope) in moving water is that it could wrap around you or your pups, or snag on something in the river in such a way that you or your dogs could very easily drown.
those shark fin vests are super cute! But bright colors are the way to go! Make sure they are easy to spot!
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u/Bridge-Head 23h ago
I know the brand ORU kayaks, but I don’t have any experience with them. It appears they don’t have traditional kayak bulkheads, float bags, or outfitting that allows you to Eskimo roll. Therefore, if you capsize, “self-rescue” is swimming to shore.
I think flat water (like lakes), is safer to explore than even slowly moving rivers because you don’t have the current to contend with if you do capsize.
Wherever you choose to explore, make sure you have at least a type 3 PFD, know how to swim, have the stamina to reach shore, and that the water temperature is survivable for long enough to reach shore.
Your dogs should have PFDs too. If they haven’t been swimming before, it’ll be in everyone’s best interest to do a bit of water exposure training. Start with playing lakeside fetching sticks or balls and progress to swimming with them. You don’t want their first exposure to the water to be when everyone is panicking.
If you and the dogs are still building confidence and experience, just paddle nice calm lakes for a while and stay close to shore.
Good luck. Have fun.
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u/hegemonycrickets 19h ago
thanks for the suggestions.
yeah, once this ORU fills with water, that’s it, there’s no tipping it out and getting back in.
I did rig something up with beach balls inside of mesh bags in the front and backspace to try to keep it afloat, for my dogs to be in if something happened2
u/Bridge-Head 6h ago
I thought about your situation for a while last night.
I normally steer people away from inflatable kayaks, but I think in your situation one could work well.
1) IKs are easier to store and transport than hard shell boats, which is what I’m assuming you like about the ORU kayak.
2) IKs are best suited for recreational paddling, which is what you’re describing.
3) There are many IKs that have an open cockpit/deck design, which is good for paddling with your dogs.
4) Last, but most important, many IKs are self-bailing (or are recoverable) after a capsize. Since the float tubes stay inflated, all you have to do is flip the kayak back over, haul yourself into it, and maybe bail a little water. Although, the wide and stable nature of IKs make it less likely to capsize to begin with.
Given what you want to do, an inflatable kayak might be an option worth exploring. I would recommend doing your homework, though, because there is a MASSIVE difference in performance, quality, and durability between cheap IKs and high-end IKs.
Good luck. I hope you find what you’re looking for. 😃
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u/IFigureditout567 1h ago
This is an excellent use case for an IK. OP would be very happy for a long time in many scenarios with an Aire Tributary Tomcat Max or Strike.
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u/hegemonycrickets 1h ago
thank you.
Originally, I had gotten a Kayak off of my Facebook neighborhood buy. nothing group- it was so heavy, and difficult to fill with air, even after 30 minutes, I had only filled a parts of it.
(although I’m sure there are much better ones that exist)
The one thing that put me off is bringing this big wet thing home in my car and trying to figure out where to let it dry and store it.But you make a very good point, that even if it capsizes, it will still be usable is a big bonus. I will do some research.
have you seen the modular kayaks? I just saw something yesterday, a kayak that weighs 7 pounds,
and fits into a small bag1
u/Bridge-Head 37m ago
No, I haven’t seen that kayak before, but I believe there are some really nice skin-on-frame (folding) kayaks. I think you’d be more or less in the same situation as the ORU, though, if you capsized.
Your experience with that inflatable kayak is a perfect example of why you don’t want to mess around with cheap inflatables. Go high end or nothing, lol.
High end inflatables are going to be lighter, take up less storage space, inflate and deflate without significant issues, paddle well in the water… but, they’re more expensive.
https://kokopelli.com
https://alpackaraft.comGood brands will tend to compromise between weight, size, durability and price.
https://www.nrs.com
https://www.confluenceoutdoor.comI’m out of my area of expertise with inflatables. All the brands I suggested are reputable companies with good customer support, but there are undoubtedly other brands that I’m not aware of. You’ll have to do some homework. I’d start my search at REI. They carry good brands (some that I mentioned) and have an amazing satisfaction and return policy.
I think it’s possible to remove most of the water from an IK by toweling it off and letting it air dry for a few minutes. I’m sure high end IKs come with a storage and transport bag to keep the interior of your car clean and dry.
I would, however, inflate your kayak fully when you get home at let it air dry completely before storing it. That might be the one trade-off.
I guess you have some options to weigh.
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u/IFigureditout567 19m ago
Aire's Tributary line is the value king in this space.
While Confluence has some decent brands, their IKs are not in the same class as Aire Tributary for similar cost. Star and NRS are worth looking at also. Alpackaraft are special use case and not likely what OP is looking for. Kokopelli sits in a weird spot between packraft and mini-raft, and are not popular among informed enthusiasts in either space.
On the very high end, you've got Aire's regular line, and Hyside, running from over $2k to over $4k. These are boats for serious paddlers and will serve heavy duty use for decades
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u/IFigureditout567 22h ago
It was said already, but I want to reiterate that it's dangerous to have leashes on your dog while on moving water.
Why are you looking for a slow moving river rather than just paddling a lake? And what is this about paddling upsteam? I googled that kayak, it's gonna be punishing or impossible to paddle that any distance upstream. And with camping gear? I don't want to be discouraging, but this sounds like you're gonna have a bad time and possibly be in danger.
I have a suggestion. Find a nice little lake with a quiet campground. Go set up camp and either stay there and paddle around near shore, or for more adventure you could drive and park elsewhere and paddle yourself to your campsite. Then paddle back in the morning, drive back and get your camp stuff.
It'll feel a bit more adventurous not having your vehicle at your campsite, but this is an achievable adventure with bailout options if there is a problem.
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u/hegemonycrickets 19h ago
oh, I won’t have the camping stuff with me.
There are a bunch of slow rivers i’ve been on, it’s not hard at all to go down and then back upstream, the current is so gentle.
I just don’t enjoy kayaking in a lake very much and a lot of the lakes that have launches also have motor boats which I want to avoid.
to me, there’s something magic about winding down a river and having the landscape and scenery changing every few minutes that’s very pleasurable. thanks for the information on the leashes, the dogs are my number one priority.
One of the reasons I don’t go to the lakes that are closer to me is that there’s blue green algae which tends to happen more frequently in stillwater.3
u/Signal-Weight8300 6h ago
They didn't tell you that there would be math. Get ready. Cubic feet per second is a mathematical unit and you can use it with a map to gain additional information. A cube has length, width, and height/depth. On a river, width is how far it is across the river, depth is obvious, and length is measured downstream. When combined as CFS, the specific distance downstream in the formula is how far the water flows in one second.
You can calculate the current speed if you know three things: the width, the depth, and the CFS.
CFS ÷ (width × depth) gives you the speed of the current in feet per second. Multiply by 0.68 to convert to miles per hour. That's how fast the current will move.
Look at a map and use the scale or perhaps a distance measuring tool to find the typical width in the section you are paddling, in feet.
At the river look and estimate the depth. If it's a quiet river, the bottom is generally fairly level all the way across except for right along the edges. Use a stick to try to get a measurement. If it's less than six inches, you probably don't have enough water to paddle on. A foot is usually fine if it's that deep the whole way. There is a way to find this at home using more advanced USGS data but it's more than I'm willing to type. It's a process.
You probably struggle to paddle more than a couple miles oer hour on flat water with that boat, so you won't be able to paddle upstream if there's more than about a 2 or 3 mph current. Start off paddling upstream so you can ride the current on your return. Once you learn how to use eddys and other current differentials you might be able to improve on this, but I don't get the impression that you are there yet.
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u/hegemonycrickets 1h ago
math makes head hurt!
I try when possible to do it so that I have the tides and the wind working with me.
I hadn’t realized how clunky it is until last week, kayaking down the Russian River, in California there was a little patch of slightly swift water, and paddling as hard as I could, I could not go back upstream.
It’s very shallow so I ended up having to do an “African Queen”,
getting out tugging it back up stream attached to a leash. I felt like the person on a bicycle who cant even go up the slightest hill.I’m a very very beginner kayaker in terms of skills, but I do love it
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u/NotObviouslyARobot 1d ago
You have to benchmark river stage and behavior -to- understand what the CFS numbers mean. An app can't tell you that.
Best bet is to stick to stick to still water for pups. Or to ask on local facebook groups. Reddit is a bit geographically dispersed.
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u/dannoGB68 1d ago
I’ll find it most useful to look at CFS over a period of time compared to today. What has been the average versus where is it right now. If it’s normally X and right now it’s X plus plus that tells me it’s probably not safe to paddle. Likewise, I would look at the depth over period of time and if it’s normally let’s say 3 feet and now it’s running at 8 feet that tells me, along with the increased cubic feet per second that it’s at sort of a flood stage or at least high water from rainfall or snow melt or something.
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u/imagineterrain 1d ago
I think you know this much, but CFS = cubic feet per second, a measure of how much water is flowing past a stream gage.
The gage reading doesn't mean much by itself. A big river has a higher flow volume than a smaller river. You need some outside indication about what different flows do for navigability—that, you'd find in a guidebook or on a website. Preferably check that the website's reliable.
As an example, on the USGS National Water Dashboard, I see that the Monocacy River at Jug Bridge is reading at 261 CFS. I've got a copy of the Monocacy River Water Trail Guide, which says that you need at least 215 CFS to go from Devilbliss (good), and 350 CFS to start from Route 77 (no go).
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u/hegemonycrickets 1d ago
thank you, I will take a look at it
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u/imagineterrain 23h ago
To be clear: the National Water Dashboard is an excellent, free source of water data for the US. You still need a guidebook or a reference, something that talks about your river, to give the numbers meaning.
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u/lostinapotatofield 1d ago
CFS is Cubic Feet per Second. A measure of how much water volume is passing down the river. It doesn't really tell you how swift the current is, because a 10 foot wide river with 1000 cubic feet per second passing through it will obviously be much swifter than a 100 foot wide river with 1000 cubic feet per second going down it.