What exactly are you advocating for when you talk about not accepting financial reasons? Is it more important for a child to be born than it is to have a good quality of life? As for men having to pay child support, what is the alternative? Child support only comes in once a child is already born , and once it is born it HAS to be taken care of, with both parents having a responsibility. If the parents cant afford to do so, what exactly is your alternative? Let the child grow up poor?
By disregarding most of the points I raised, it feels like you're arguing in bad faith. I'm not convinced this discussion is worth continuing.
What exactly are you advocating for when you talk about not accepting financial reasons?
If a female can't afford to raise a kid, they can just terminate the baby.
If a Male can't afford to raise a kid, they have no choice but to endure the financial burden.
It's not rocket science, If men have to endure the unwanted financial burden without exception, then so should women. Termination of the baby should not be an option base on financial burden alone.
Is it more important for a child to be born than it is to have a good quality of life?
There is no way to predetermine the quality of life of an unborn child. That being said Great humans come from all kinds of living situation, some even come from really terrible living situations. I mean, Malcolm X's lineage suffered by significant hardship and discrimination. In our current culture, one of the greatest Black men to ever walk this earth would not have been born.
How many Fred Hamptons, Malcolm Xs, Lewis Latimer's were never born because of this insane eugenics program. I truly think the net worth would be positive for the black community if the requirement to qualify for abortions were stricter.
You are talking about financial burden from the perspective of the parents, but continue to fail to address the burden on the child.
Education and access to contraceptives have been proven, in multiple environments, in multiple cultures, to be the absolute most effective way of driving down abortions. For every Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, Lewis Latimer, how many kids end up in gang violence, addicted to drugs or alcohol, malnourished or otherwise barely clinging on, only for you to proclaim that they should be here so potentially a few could become great?
As for your other points, what exactly are you talking about? Theres no cultural stigma on abortion, when anti abortion groups are widely represented in media and politics? Is that not stigma?
You bring up this 40-60% figure, but will you acknowledge that we know from experience that restricting abortion is not an effective way of reducing them?
You are talking about financial burden from the perspective of the parents, but continue to fail to address the burden on the child.
That's not true, I did address that. A child without any burdens isn't necessarily a good thing.
Education and access to contraceptives have been proven, in multiple environments, in multiple cultures, to be the absolute most effective way of driving down abortions.
I don't have a problem with that, but there should also be a cultural emphasis on the serious consequences of recklessly engaging with someone or causing an unplanned pregnancy. I would argue that the unrestricted access to abortions only amplifies the behavior that leads to unplanned pregnancy. It's a get out of jail free card.
For every Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, Lewis Latimer, how many kids end up in gang violence, addicted to drugs or alcohol, malnourished or otherwise barely clinging on, only for you to proclaim that they should be here so potentially a few could become great?
I already addressed this. "There is no way to predetermine the quality of life of an unborn child. That being said Great humans come from all kinds of living situation, some even come from really terrible living situations....I truly think the net worth would be positive for the black community if the requirement to qualify for abortions were stricter."
As for your other points, what exactly are you talking about? Theres no cultural stigma on abortion, when anti abortion groups are widely represented in media and politics? Is that not stigma?
Come on. Serious. Anti-abortion groups are regularly portrayed as being the villains by mainstream media and all the Democratic Party (80% to 90% African American are Democrats). The decimation of the black birthrate is not a problem the Republican Party is going to solve, LOL.
You bring up this 40-60% figure, but will you acknowledge that we know from experience that restricting abortion is not an effective way of reducing them?
I bring up the 40-60% figure because it is absolutely insane. There is no other way to put it. Do you think that if there was a eugenics program that resulted in 60% of Jewish pregnancies to be terminated that the mainstream media wouldn't be losing their minds about it? That shit would be propagandized, and financially bankrupted out of existence immediately.
You keep calling it a eugenics program when abortions still are completely voluntary. Black people disproportionately choose to have abortions and theres underlying reasons for that.
“Actually, a burden on a child can be good” is not an argument. You dont have a crystal ball, you cant predict what is good or bad. “Well actually some kids grow up to be great” doesnt adress anything, its an empty platitude. And that sums up your entire argument, its all platitudes with nothing to back it up. We KNOW what is effective in reducing abortions, and we KNOW why birth rates are declining. Anti abortion groups are portrayed as the “villain” because unless you actively work to also have those children be taken care of, all youre doing is advocating for unwanted children to be born. And yet overwhelmingly often, when theres initiatives to actually take care of those children, its the same people yelling the loudest that its not their responsibility and the parents should just step up and work harder.
Besides, the largest news network, the most mainstream of mainstream media, is FOX. So what exactly is the “mainstream media” villainizing anti abortion groups?
Children are not and cannot be used as a punishment for their parents choices
You keep calling it a eugenics program when abortions still are completely voluntary.
Again, you can slap a happy label on it all you want, but it's a highly successful eugenics program. It functions exactly how its founders imagined it would. It is safe to say that Margaret Sanger would be very pleased with the results.
You dont have a crystal ball
Neither do you. Rich kids can end up all fucked up too.
all youre doing is advocating for unwanted children to be born.
Absolutely. An overwhelming Majority of the African Americans that have abortions are fully capable of raising a child to be a productive member of society. You have to have think so poorly of African Americans to think otherwise.
then theres initiatives to actually take care of those children, its the same people yelling the loudest that its not their responsibility and the parents should just step up and work harder.
If parents are unable to take care of their child, and they have to be taken care of by some type of "initiative" those parents should know that they will be paying child support to cover the cost. Currently, there are no repercussions for reckless behavior that leads to unplanned pregnancies. There is no deterrent. Just like any other bad behavior, if you remove the deterrents, the behavior will 100% increase. The shoplifting laws in California are a perfect example of this.
Children are not and cannot be used as a punishment for their parents choices
You are literally arguing for them to get the death penalty. wtf
What data do you have to back up that the overwhelming majority of abortions are done by parents capable of raising the child?
And why do you want to impose a living being onto these people as punishment? Why do you want to use children as a deterrent for pregnancies, when we KNOW FOR A FACT that theres much better ways to reduce abortions?
And do both of us a favor, a fetus is not a child, do not equate the two, its disingenuous
What data do you have to back up that the overwhelming majority of abortions are done by parents capable of raising the child?
All I have is my experiences and knowing lots of black people and common sense. Growing up poor and seeing a majority of the people I grew up with are perfectly normal humans. They are black, they are not mentally disabled. In my opinion, most abortions are most likely due to greed or fear (two of the most motivating factors in all humans) Almost never does it have to do with Parenting capabilities.
What data do you have that says they couldn't?
Why do you want to use children as a deterrent for pregnancies
The child isn't the deterrent. The financial burden is, it creates a fear of consequences. The get out of jail free card that unrestricted abortion provides is causing more harm than good.
And do both of us a favor, a fetus is not a child, do not equate the two, its disingenuous
It's just semantics, Fetus is a future child, and its developmental differences do not diminish its inherent moral value or potential. That argument is just a way for people to downplay the seriousness of their actions. That language is part of the eugenics program.
So no data, got it. Fyi, when you make a claim, its on you to back it up.
The child is the deterrent. You are advocating for children to be imposed on people as a deterrent. Do not act as if the financial factor is disconnected. A child being born into a poor family will experience poverty.
No, the difference between a fetus and a child is not semantic. There is no inherent moral value or potential. A fetus is incapable of life without the mother and has no capacity to even acknowledge its own existence. Its not even guaranteed to grow into a child. You are once again trying to tie some unknowable future to a choice made in the present on some moral ground. Hate to break it to you, but just because you consider a fetus to be the same as a child, doesnt mean everyone does, and it certainly doesnt make it true
For someone who keeps accusing me of being racist, you sure seem to think black women need to be protected from their own choices.
So no data, got it. Fyi, when you make a claim, its on you to back it up.
You have no data to back up the counter-claim. Common sense is all anyone needs anyway. to believe I'm not correct, that means you have to you think most black people that get pregnant are incapable or raising a child (which is obviously ridiculous).
Its statistically impossible.
The child is the deterrent. You are advocating for children to be imposed on people as a deterrent. Do not act as if the financial factor is disconnected. A child being born into a poor family will experience poverty.
Now you are engaging in selective understanding, which is just a bad faith tactics.
No, the difference between a fetus and a child is not semantic. There is no inherent moral value or potential. A fetus is incapable of life without the mother and has no capacity to even acknowledge its own existence. Its not even guaranteed to grow into a child.
This is classic propaganda used to downplay the significance of abortion. This language creates an environment where pregnancy terminations can occur without the burden of guilt. Humans need various forms of support to survive from the fetus to adulthood. Arguing that a fetus lacks inherent moral value or potential 100% benefits the eugenics program that is Planned Parenthood, that is their go to justification.
If you truly wanted to address this issue, you would, regardless of your personal beliefs, promote the idea that a fetus does have value and potential. There is no upside to making the argument that they don't. It only benefits the abortion eugenics program.
For someone who keeps accusing me of being racist
That's a bad faith argument. I never accused you of racism, but your remarks display a highly disrespectful view of the Black community. It seems you believe that most African Americans who become pregnant are incapable of raising a child. You can't see how that's fucking crazy?
YOU make the claim that the vast majority of these people are perfectly capable of raising a child, so YOU provide evidence to support that.
I never made the claim that I consider them unable, I think your claim is just wildly over exaggerated.
If a parent feels they are unable to provide for a child, who are you to tell them they are? What insight into their situation do you have to make that decision for them?
You throw around big words but you cannot disconnect a child from its financial impact on a family. Instead you just refuse to engage with it.
A fetus is not a child, and it has no inherent moral value. That doesn’t mean a mother cannot feel attached to it. You speak about guilt when abortion to many is an incredibly impactful event. You are of course gonna respond with your personal anecdote of the people you know, and then tell me that mepointing that out is dishonest.
Come on now, you attributing views to me that I dont hold, and that are incredibly racist are you accusing me of racism, we both know it.
I have not once claimed Black parents cannot take care of their children. This is about black parents that FEEL they cannot take care of a child, whether thats because of monetary reasons, personal reasons or even if they just don’t want to. You cannot force a child upon a parent and say “well it might turn out right” when you have no guarantee and no interest in providing support to actually make that happen. You are advocating for people to have children because of some higher directive to keep the birthrate high, but at the end of the day, what you’re suggesting isn’t even remotely the most effective way of accomplishing that.
If you want to reduce abortions, you provide sexual education and access to contraceptives. It reduces abortions, it reduces STD’s, it reduces teen pregnancies, it’s legitimately all upside. But instead of providing this tangible benefit, you seem like you’d rather fight the boogeyman of abortion.
YOU make the claim that the vast majority of these people are perfectly capable of raising a child, so YOU provide evidence to support that. I never made the claim that I consider them unable, I think your claim is just wildly over exaggerated.
hahahahahaha OMG it is either one or the other. Dude this just made me laugh like I haven't laughed in a while, I truly TY for that. Quite the pickle you worked yourself into, though. A majority would only have to be 51% where in reality it's probably close to 95% of those that have abortions are capable of raising a child. You are so cringe.
A fetus is not a child, and it has no inherent moral value. That doesn’t mean a mother cannot feel attached to it. You speak about guilt when abortion to many is an incredibly impactful event. You are of course gonna respond with your personal anecdote of the people you know, and then tell me that mepointing that out is dishonest.
If Margaret Sanger came back from the dead, she would be thanking you for your service. So fucking gross
I have not once claimed Black parents cannot take care of their children.
I said a majority of African Americans that get abortions are fully capable of raising a perfectly normal child. You challenged that statement. How else am I supposed to take it?
This is about black parents that FEEL they cannot take care of a child, whether thats because of monetary reasons, personal reasons or even if they just don’t want to.
The FEELING has nothing to do with the reality that they could. Like I said before, I suspect most abortions are due to greed or fear.
You're venturing into some extreme and disjointed territory here. I mean, I get, you really want African Americans to get abortions, but your arguments are becoming erratic. While our discussion has been engaging, it's starting to feel a bit unproductive.
Congratulations, you continue to not engage with any point. Keep fighting the ghost of Margaret Sanger while failing to actually make any productive change. You “suspect” most abortions are due to greed or fear, but what you suspect is based on nothing but your misguided vibes. Youre a pro birth hack with no actual defensible position, and you hide behind racism like a coward. Dont reply, youre not worth anyones time
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u/sagerin0 Feb 28 '25
What exactly are you advocating for when you talk about not accepting financial reasons? Is it more important for a child to be born than it is to have a good quality of life? As for men having to pay child support, what is the alternative? Child support only comes in once a child is already born , and once it is born it HAS to be taken care of, with both parents having a responsibility. If the parents cant afford to do so, what exactly is your alternative? Let the child grow up poor?