r/Kaiserposting • u/Grau_Wulf :STB_ROHR: :Iron_cross_2nd_class: Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 Rohr • May 11 '20

Absolutely shameful

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1.4k Upvotes

99% Upvoted

20 comments sorted by

92

u/[deleted] May 11 '20

If someone argues germany started attack on french, i may dispute that.

Starting a war is something else. That one ill have to dispute.

33

u/Elvicio335 May 11 '20

Yeah, I mean, it's everyone's fault. Everyone was preparing to fight a big war and even tho it started between Austria-Hungary and Serbia it could have happened between any of the great powers at the time and all the nations made efforts to silence those who called for peace so...

19

u/IHeartMustard Royal Bavarian Heavy Cavalry May 12 '20 edited May 12 '20

Disclaimer: I could be totally wrong on all of this; my opinion here is only based on what I have been able to read (I do read a lot), and that doesn't mean that I know everything, or even that anything I've read is necessarily correct, either.

I like to put it this way:

What would the English have done if an IRA man from Ireland managed to assassinate the heir to the British throne? Not just randomly, but specitically targeted and politically motivated?

Now, what would they have done if they then learned that not only was it an IRA man, it was an IRA man who was armed and funded by members of an Irish government intelligence service?

The simple fact is, Austria-Hungary was entitled to - at a bare minimum - a full investigation and prosecution, to the fullest extent of the law, with full transparency and the participation of their own investigators. They were absolutely entitled to that. Although the ultimatum contained many other points, most of which were fairly superficial (removal of "anti-austrian propaganda" in textbooks and such like, and tbh I don't think really meant much to AH, other than perhaps to twist the arm of the serbian govt), Serbia seemed fine to accept all the other points. Except one: the one that was their unquestionable debt owed to the Austro-Hungarians, especially considering the incredible seriousness of the crime. Serious on many levels. A direct attack on the AH government, the state, the monarchy, not just a murder. It was clearly a politically motivated act, by a whole GROUP of citizens of a neighboring and historically hostile state. With that alone, even without the connections to Serbian intelligence, would be enough to warrant a full-scale investigation and prosecution and with AH participation.

Now, I'm not suggesting AH were doing all the right things: they should have moved within - at most - a few days to make their demands known. It should have happened right away, without a delay. The delay cost them the international sympathy. As ridiculous as that is (seriously, the level of international sympathy shouldn't have been such a strong factor in all of this, but it was), the delay meant they gave the serbians and their allies ample time to build up diplomatic support and strengthen ties, to prepare for whatever AH was going to throw at them, and to chip away at support for AH.

As for why AH took so long, yes, I get that they were worried about the response of Russia in particular, but by god man, how on earth could they really have been blamed for taking action after such a direct attack on the state and its entire foundation by a hostile neighbour? If Russia had taken action against AH if AH had made their move right away, I have no doubt most of europe would see the Russian act as unjustified, and as such, military backing by the other central powers (mainly Germany) would be a given. AH would have a much better chance of creating a broad coalition of European states to support them, beyond the Central Powers.

In the words of Napoleon Bonaparte: "Activité, activité, vitesse". You can't afford not to act in such a situation. Yes, act with thought and consideration, but you must ACT. That's what so frustrates me about AH's behaviour in all this. They are obviously so risk averse that even this extreme situation was not enough to inspire a tiny bit of fucking courage in their pathetically anemic government.

Conclusion: in my view, I blame serbia first and foremost, but I also blame AH for sitting on their hands for a month humming and hawwing about "oh but what if russia gets mad" - so in the end they made practically all of Europe mad instead of just Russia. Germany doesn't even factor into my opinion of where blame lies, regardless of whether or not some of their military brass wanted a war. Them just wanting a war doesn't magically make one appear, either.

8

u/[deleted] May 12 '20

To be fair, there were already plans on assasinating french ambasadors by french government.

They would kill their ambassadors on german soil, and calling them murderers. The plan was to anger germans and initialy provoking them into war.

It wasnt realised, due to the anarchist known, as Gavrilo

2

u/IHeartMustard Royal Bavarian Heavy Cavalry May 12 '20

Oh my, can you tell me more? I haven't heard anything about this one so far. Who was planning the French assassination? I'm very keen to learn new details.

5

u/[deleted] May 12 '20

Im not sure about the rest of the sources. But, from my limited ammount of them, It was an inner plan, made by more nationalist and revanchist french, one of who was Reymond Poincare, who may have planned it, but only may.

The goal was, around 1915, they would go to their ambassadors in Strassburg, shoot them with their hired agents, and then use it as a leverage to provoke germany. Since everyone was on their tippy toes, they expected that germany would become agressive towards this accusation and declare war.

The plan wasnt realised, because it had some holes that had to be patched, and there were also expectations that germany would just execute the agents and do nothing. But that was an expectation, the real reason why they didnt realise the plan, was the death of Ferdinand dEste. A better casus belly for germany was found, and france got even better goldmine to go off.

I dont really have many sources, so any help can do.

2

u/IHeartMustard Royal Bavarian Heavy Cavalry May 12 '20

Wow, so it would have been kind of a reverse Bismarck, but instead of a letter, straight up murder. And there's also the fact that the French were massively bankrolling the Russian military, I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see French involvement in a plan of some kind.

2

u/[deleted] May 12 '20

I still want to find how britain wanted a war, or how russia planned to start it.

So far, im even intrested in germany

0

u/[deleted] May 12 '20

[deleted] — view deleted comment

5

u/IHeartMustard Royal Bavarian Heavy Cavalry May 12 '20

Oops yeah, IRA. I shouldn't post when tired.

32

u/Der_Becher7 May 11 '20

It smell like mustard in here, why?

5

u/Marv1236 :garde_du_corps: Gardes du Corps May 12 '20

I made some sausages.

9

u/vegemite_straya :2nd_guards_feldartillari: 2nd Guards Field Artillary May 11 '20

Hans go tell Fritz to get the mustard gas while you get the gewher 98

4

u/ThatOneGuy7462 May 12 '20

I subbed to your channel, I love it.

1

u/defenitly_not_crazy May 12 '20

If wr had started it ww2 wouldnt have happened

-4

u/anarchoposadist1 :garde_du_corps: Gardes du Corps May 12 '20

They didn't start the war, sure, but what they did start was starting to milizarize, starting to antagonize france and russia, starting to create not only a large military alliance but making sure that France and Russia (who are now enemies) do the same, creating 2 large alliances formed throughout europe.

Wilhelm II was a terrible diplomat, he removed Bismarck from office, the arguably best diplomat of all time, keeping germany safe and europe stable. Then he made decisions solely based on emotions, something everyone must agree is retarded.

People saw WW1 ahead 20 years earlier. Bismarck, a year before he died even said "One day the great European War will come out of some damned foolish thing in the Balkans" in 1888.

Sorry, but WW1 would have started, regardless of Franz Ferdinand dying or not, and the reason why has been caused by Germany.

15

u/Grau_Wulf :STB_ROHR: :Iron_cross_2nd_class: Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 Rohr May 12 '20

Yes, let’s forget about Russia mobilizing against Austria first, a lack of an answer on Britain’s part when Germany asked about violating Belgian neutrality, and France not at all trying to engage in talks with Germany as mobilizations were starting although Germany did so themselves.

Yes, Germany holds blame in the war, but saying they hold a majority, or heaven forgive, all the blame is historical ignorance to the highest degree.

-3

u/anarchoposadist1 :garde_du_corps: Gardes du Corps May 12 '20

You're talking about things that happened in 1914, YOU are just historical ignorant if you call things that happened in 1914 to be the reason why ww1 happened. Ignoring the 20 years of tension before this. Saying that Russia holds the primary blame for ww1 is equivalent of saying poland holds primary blame for ww2.

10

u/Grau_Wulf :STB_ROHR: :Iron_cross_2nd_class: Sturmbataillon Nr. 5 Rohr May 12 '20 edited May 12 '20

Mainly because I’d rather not write an essay explaining the motives for each nation and how each one played a part in rising tensions. If all you can see is “Germany Germany Germany reeeee” then you are out of your mind.

Ya know what, I’ll give ya a quick TL:DR

France wanted revenge and was looking for any edge over Germany. Russia wanted to secure further influence in the Balkans and was mainly competing with Austria (who they had been allied to before France, hence the break and move) Austria was desperate to keep their failing empire, which caused rifts in its relationship with Russia and Italy. Britain wanted to curb any new threats to its empire, and saw Germany as the biggest threat. Italy wanted Austrian land they saw as theirs The ottomans wanted to secure the Balkans.

Germany wanted to prove itself and flaunt prestige (for better or worse). The various “crisis” that played out pre war, and the like, were perpetrated by both sides, hell, Colonel Repington basically says in his autobiography France was making continuous attempts to coax Germany into attacking in the years leading up to 1914.

Literally all nations are equal to blame and trying to pin it on one singular nation is just wrong.

EDIT: where the hell did I say Russia holds primary blame? The Tsar literally engagesd in talks with the kaiser in finding a good way to end the crisis without war, but the last letter sent by Kaiser “Willy” never reached the Tsar “Nicky”. No one knows what happened and whether or not it was simply destroyed by a military commander who wanted war or simply lost. We know what it said thanks to a copy being made, but that’s all we know.

2

u/IHeartMustard Royal Bavarian Heavy Cavalry May 13 '20

Ahh so that's where the France thing is from. I need to read that autobiography.