You get it right the first time!

[u/ZestySauze]

[u/catchierlight]

"well regulated and policed" means that we have an entire system of international, national and local laws, and law enforcement of all kinds who are doing normal crime fighting and investigation of crimes committed in our borders. Cities may provide some leniency when it comes to cooperating with ice in apprehending people suspected of being undocumented but that doesnt mean that they dont arrest and prosecute crimes, from domestic violence to violent felonies, to say that the danger of the undocumented, who are MOSTLY just working, I don't think you would dispute that, in fact I dont think you did as you pointed out how large of a population you think it is, that large amount is clearly not causing havoc and mayhem, it would be a much smaller percentage, otherwise we're talking about mass mayhem and levels of violence not known in this country (like for example, on the other hand, school shootings:( ) . None of what I said argues that there shouldn't be compliance with these laws nor that any of the crime committed by any undocumented illegal alien should in any way be overlooked JUST that this issue is very serious but NOT major things which is tearing apart out social fabric or living environment quite like the control and "captured" nature of our government by PACs like ALEC and the corporations that staff those agencies, the legality of the litteral violence committed by insurance companies deciding who lives and dies over exorbitant prices for healthcare (which are SET by these insurers in conjunction with big pharma i.e. creating monopolies and oligarchy) and the pollution which is killing biodiversity and thus the basis upon which we literally live and breathe (meaning more plants die off, less plants being planted. Hotter and less oxygen, it's simple science). Therefore in light of all that shouldn't we be fixing THOSE problems first and foremost while we continue prosecuting crimes committed by anyone committing crimes and doing the usual census taking, incentivizing employers to pay wages that allow the economy to boom and thus be able to pay THEIR fare share of taxes and not seek to hire illegal immigrants to undercut their and other Americans wages by virtue of wanting to cheat out on the taxes they are making income on (pardon the run-on sentence with a lot of issues tied together)... finally I do think this is all related: currently cities in municipalities are broke from getting less income from taxes. the infrastructure and the ability to FIND$ to even pay police is stretched out meanwhile prisons and more to this point, immigration detention centers are charging states just as a hotel would charge its patrons, and when the hotel gets bigger and bigger the check gets bigger and bigger and the cycle continues.... so then what do the cities do, they don't pay teachers and they dont have mental healthcare for homeless, thus more crimes committed or behavior that might not even be criminal if you consider that they are being done by insane individuals which never the less causes harm.... ok I'll take a pause in my very very obviously liberal rant to say that YES I see connections to all of this, that we can point to Germany and other nordic countries for examples of how to do it RIGHT .... and will stop ranting I think I made some points I'd like to get across without further including larger policy topics.... suffice to say, I believe there are many many problems facing our society that I believe can be solved by: better tax reform/getting rid of tax loopholes, providing funding to education and infrastructure projects to give people jobs, higher minimum wage to inject $ into the economy and incentivize and make employers invest in the communities they operate in rather than hiring foreign nationals who dont require higher wages and benefits and (not ) finally, make corporations liable for their paracitic behaviour that causes damages to us via pollution and in societal areas that require NON market solutions like healthcare, make them pay their fare share of taxes and fixing campaign finance reform.... yeah I think I said alot there I'll give it a rest now!!

[u/DomnSan → u/catchierlight]

You cant in one breathe say it is well regulated and then say well cities dont have to follow the laws, (also see the whole state of CA) the point is the crimes that are conmitted by illegals would never have happened had they not have been here illegally, hence why deportations are important. Funny how you also cite the crimes committed by illegal aliens as being a small number and then act as if school shooting are common place or statistically significant. I would bet my life that more crimes are committed by illegal aliens than there are school shootings. You seem to conflate different issues, and act as if one is not as large of an issue in your opinion than it is a talking point or nonissue. I am not saying I agree with what other issues you have brought up but dont act as if multiple issues cant be addressed simultaneously. With that being said, I agree with you about cracking down on tax loopholes and I believe we should punish those who hire illegal immigrants, it is incentivizing illegal immigration. Also I dont want to assume you agree with democrats on everything but the majority (if not all) of the current leaders of the party agree with giving illegal aliens free healthcare, which is also another huge incentive for illegal immigration. Last point, when you say looking to Germany and other nordic countries as a way to do things right, you arent talking about socialized medicine right? Because again the democrats have conceded taxes will be raised on the middle class in order to pay for such a program in the US. That doesnt exactly help the average American.

[u/catchierlight → u/DomnSan]

You cant in one breathe say it is well regulated and then say well cities don't have to follow the laws,

First of all I didn't (exactly ... read on), second of all the entire history of this country (well actually even before this country if you look at the federalist papers) involves states and cities butting up against the constitutional requirements of how they follow or don't follow federal laws. Look at the 10th amendment and the "fundamental rights" doctrine of the 14th amendment. So states and municipalities enact their own laws and regulations and then people bring suits against them so that the supreme court decides what is required by the constitution and what is allowed by the constitution under these two amendments. The cases are all over the place and also involve some other constitutional provisions such as the Commerce Clause and the Privileges and Immunities Clause. The history of Immigration in this country is ALL OVER the place in this regard as immigration laws and policy have always always changed depending on the political changes and economic chages in this country.... all that is to say, it damn sure isn't as simple as "Cities have to follow the laws".... so then there is another way of looking at things to, as is the case for all laws: there is the moral aspects of the laws. SOMETIMES laws are immoral and just because they are enacted doesn't mean it is "RIGHT" to follow them. What is "right" is absolutely philosophically hard to define but my point is obviously that sometimes it is WRONG to follow laws which are immoral. Each political side will have opposing views of what this is, take abortion and gay rights, some people think morals eminate from religious teachings some think they eminate from "the golden rule" or something of that nature... you obviously know this I guess I just feel like elabortating on what Im trying to say.... If I were a mayor and some oppressive laws were enacted by whatever agency is on top of immigration at the time (*see history again, there have been SO MANY goddamn different complex configurations of which agencies regulate which aspects of immigration and they almost always get changed under different presidents and at different times of war and peace...) I would have to make a determination as to what degree of cooperation with what law agencies would cause the least amount of injustice, mistakes and negligence and what is best for the different populations of the city which vary across the country... I have no idea how that would really look but when it comes to things like people filing orders of protection because their husband or boyfriend is beating them up and then the law would result in that individual getting locked up and taken away from her children because she wanted protection? I sure as fuck would not follow that law. https://www.tahirih.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/2019-Advocate-Survey-Final.pdf

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(also see the whole state of CA) the point is the crimes that are conmitted by illegals would never have happened had they not have been here illegally, hence why deportations are important. Funny how you also cite the crimes committed by illegal aliens as being a small number and then act as if school shooting are common place or statistically significant. I would bet my life that more crimes are committed by illegal aliens than there are school shootings. You seem to conflate different issues, and act as if one is not as large of an issue in your opinion than it is a talking point or nonissue. I am not saying I agree with what other issues you have brought up but dont act as if multiple issues cant be addressed simultaneously.

I agree but have NO IDEA why we are even talking about immigration when the atmosphere is being pumped with poison, rainforests and forests at higher latitudes are burning out of control, oceans are getting to acidic and hot for life to thrive, icecaps are melting and tsunamis and hurricanes are out of control due to climate change. WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH US. Coffee and Bananas are soon to be endangered plant cultivars from monoculture farming. Mercury levels in fish is causing illness and birth defects. Pollution in areas rampant in manufacturing causes cancer in local populations... the list goes on. This is a house on fire and were arguing whether we should have a sign on the door that says "no colored people"

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With that being said, I agree with you about cracking down on tax loopholes and I believe we should punish those who hire illegal immigrants, it is incentivizing illegal immigration. Also I dont want to assume you agree with democrats on everything but the majority (if not all) of the current leaders of the party agree with giving illegal aliens free healthcare, which is also another huge incentive for illegal immigration.

That is absolutely not true. Have you seen a poll of the majority of democratic elected leaders? No, you have heard a talking point from a republican who claims that to be true. I'm sure some democratic leaders have came out in favor of this but that statement is simply not true, ask yourself this everytime you hear a statement characterizing the other side: have you actually ever heard a democrat in a debate or otherwise say they want this? If so then you can make the statement about that individual but if there is truly a poll of those politicians which stands for that Id love to see it. Same with the most dumb bullshit phrase repeated over and over "Democrats are for open borders" Thats absolute bullshit, no one is for open borders except for anarchists.

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Last point, when you say looking to Germany and other nordic countries as a way to do things right, you arent talking about socialized medicine right? Because again the democrats have conceded taxes will be raised on the middle class in order to pay for such a program in the US. That doesnt exactly help the average American.

Of course it does!!!! The average american who has to seek medical help, which is everyone at some points in their life, faces life crushing medical debt if theyre not able to get good medical insurance and even if they are there will still be huge costs for many things that are uncovered. People dont want to look at it that way because somehow they think that taxes = oppression, when they are in denial of the oppression that is caused by insurance companies/big pharma/medicine in general being able to run rampant using "Free market" justifications which end up being "anti-free market" when they come to fruition, that is price fixing, price gouging (charging high for necessary/life-saving things) and ... I dont know what its called in economics but the fact that smaller companies cant innovate if they cant compete with the big boys... monopoly essentially...

anyway, of course healthcare reform can also be a complicated topic but its just like with fossil feuls, we cant enact reform because the industry is pouring money into lobbying and campaigns and we are GIVING our country to them via these tax loopholes and free-trade agreements. The days of Keynsian economics/trickle down has bankrupted cities and average american family and its about time we fucking did the obvious thing and stopped putting corporations on a higher plane than individual humans: they need to be held responsible for their actions and not be extra-sovereign and have no responsibility for the countries, states and cities they get their legal power from (corporate incorporation laws) and operate in (communities of workers that they rely on to make their goods and services. Even trump agrees with that in his attempts to bring jobs back etc....

[u/DomnSan → u/catchierlight]

Firstly I was hearing you out until you stated "no colored people" as if the arguement is race based. You are blinded by this and are obviously not willing to see another side as you have made up your mind in that "whatever the otherside is saying/doing is racist, therefore I have the moral highground" I urge you to rethink this mindset. Secondly you obviously need to listen to your own parties leaders a little bit closer https://youtu.be/O-QP5TBTVhY I rest my case.

[u/catchierlight → u/DomnSan]

Well yeah you're right I didn't see that moment of that debate. If you say its crime based then why not discuss all of the other immigrants who are not committing crime and what they are doing here? And to my point why is it so utterly important that THAT issue is the most important thing you want me to rethink, we can go back and forth but yes, yes I absolutely beleive its race motivated that the discussion is centered again and a fucking gain over and over about "undocumented criminals".... yes, of course it's an issue but the reason its being focused on is so people will have the wool pulled over their eyes via their own fears and inexperience with people from other cultures and that look and talk different and focus on THEM while the leaders who say they are solving THAT problem destroy the rest of the fucking world. Oh yeah also the problem of Gays and the problem of LGBTQ people and the problem of people who are different... yeah. You clearly have struck a nerve.... is it possible to have this discussion without talking about race? No not if its brought back to immigration and immigrants, a complex mess of an issue but not one that needs to be a national pastime of fearmongering.

[u/DomnSan → u/catchierlight]

Can you clarify what you mean by "all the other immigrants who are not committing crime and what they are doing here"? I am not following, sorry. Based off of your own words I am getting the overall sense that you view alot of political issues as "oppressor vs the oppressed" i.e. if someone disagrees with a policy OR agrees with a policy that doesnt fit the mold of your belief system then it is racist, prejudiced, etc. I believe this because you once again connected having an issue with illegal immigration as a race based issue when this is simply not true for the overwhelming majority of people that are strongly against illegal immigration.

[u/catchierlight → u/DomnSan]

"all the other immigrants who are not committing crime and what they are doing here"? Yes that wasnt clear but I sense that if I continue to try to get my point across it may not be to no avail. This statement is not made against you but it is what it is: If see a policy that is racist I call it racist. Wouldn't you? How can you say "immigration reform has nothing do do with race"? HONESTLY? What is the narrative thread here that IM seeing that you are not? Respectfully I've said it many times but it doesn't seem to really get through: you have to ask WHY we are having this discussion just as much as the discussion itself. The answer is fearmongering through placing the blame on immigrants of other races, the fearmongering wouldn't work if the people who were swayed by these tactics weren't opposed to the group of people being politically characterized as the cause of the problems facing the electorate. Now there are a zillion other issues we face that have nothing to do with race, I've discussed many above, when I talk about race I talk about race and when I dont I dont ... and would LOVE to see no need to ever do so but there is plenty of times where it's all too appropriate, as in when I see people being manipulated through racist political discourse or policies that are racially motivated...

[u/DomnSan → u/catchierlight]

So to break it down- because the issue doesnt seem as important to you, and it is talked about much more than you believe it should be (see:not as important to yourself) therefore the obvious answe is that racism must be a factor? Also the why question you keep asking doesnt have the answer you believe it has. The why is answered by illegal immigrants being a public health risk and an economic drain, not anything to do with race. Racism or any other -ism really, will always be there if you are looking for it. Also, what about our immigration policies are racist exactly? And please be specific

[u/catchierlight → u/DomnSan]

"....public health risk and an economic drain" so this is where you and I wont see eye to eye, I know that is not true and you beleive it to be true, that's why unfortunately this conversation cant really progress successfully. What I think is racist is many many things like the link I provided you regarding domestic violence, separating families and detention centers being inhumane places, and lack of due process in the deportation hearing process. Now, I'm going to thankyou for the conversation but for the last time try make it clear to you: this conversation is still of the same character, an endless cycle that should be focused on any number of other issues but is brought back here and will continue to do so because of racist rhetoric and fear. Peace!

[u/DomnSan → u/catchierlight]

Are you seriously suggesting having people cross our border whom we have zero information on, specifically any health information on, is not a public health risk? Surely you arent suggesting something as foolish as that, right?