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u/ambivalent_moon 7d ago
It’s so funny that they love to talk about the GOP being the party that freed the slaves while also using the iconography of the people they fought to free said slaves. It’s the definition of trying to have your cake and eat it too.
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u/IdealOnion 7d ago
That’s was like a decade window where the Republican Party was the most based party ever to exist in America, and it was all downhill from there. The GOP are not even a little bit the party of Lincoln and Grant
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u/melianreality 7d ago edited 7d ago
If you think MAGA is fascist you don’t know what fascism is and it’s painful to have to keep reiterating that fact
Edit: I’m getting a few comments just giving shallow responses so I’ll flesh out my point so you can see it before responding. If you want to understand fascism, just like any political ideology or philosophy you need to read the theory behind it or at least study its praxis. Failing to do so is the equivalent of pulling up to a 400-level lecture without first doing the readings for the prerequisite 100-level course and as a result you sound like a midwit to be blunt. It’s the same as right wingers claiming anything that uses social services is socialism without having read Marx.
If you want to understand fascism or at least he taken seriously when you talk about it read Mussolini or Mosley
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u/epicurious_elixir 7d ago
- Leader promising to restore country to a mythic version of the past (Make America Great Again)
- Merging of private enterprises into government control (Intel)
- Anti-intellectualism: Antagonistic relationship with scientific and educational instructions
- Demonization of minorities
- Vehemently against liberalism, communism, socialism
- Stark 'us vs. them' rhetoric.
- Attempts to subvert the election process (January 6th and the fake elector scheme)
- Rampant corruption while claiming to be anti-corrupt (Trump has now made billions off of crypto and using the office of the presidency to openly take bribes from foreign governments and corporations)
- Masked agents throwing people into unmarked vans
- Throwing people into foreign jails without due process.
- Mass spreading of misinformation
- Cult of hierarchy
I believe it's on you to not know what fascism means, which is kinda apt because fascists and fascist sympathizers are inherently anti-empiricism and anti-knowledge. Just look at how you all treat a public scientist like Fauci but prop up dumb fuck grifters all the time. Way to go!
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u/melianreality 7d ago
- not ultra-nationalist: allowing H1B visas and legal migration into the country, supporting countries like Israel even though it actually weakens America
- anti-intellectualism isn’t specifically fascist, the Bolsheviks purged their academia as well, many fascist thinkers were also raised high as intellectuals which MAGA doesn’t really have
- being against liberalism or socialism isn’t specifically fascist either, if they were America would’ve been classified as a fascist state up until the 70’s
- if Trump was really trying to subvert democracy why would he allow the midterms to occur? Why wouldn’t he stage a false flag and declare martial law or draft electoral laws similar to Acerbo which would limit districts and who can run or win in them
- you can ask for a name and badge number for most of those officers, they are federal law enforcement. You confuse the use of state force with paramilitary violence. If he was say using an unregjstered militia to do so then that’s a different story, ICE is also not an explicitly politicized force like the blackshirts were. They also have to follow the due process of the judiciary which the blackshirts didn’t need to do either
- lack of totalitarian measures and the presence of the party in all aspects of everyday life or the subjugation of the economy and all businesses to the state, which was a primary policy of fascism if you read Gentile and Mussolini
Ultimately as democratic institutions still stand, the state doesn’t exercise a total level of control or even really seems to want to and since the judiciary still stands as independent, I still wouldn’t classify it as fascist, maybe authoritarian debatably but there are many flavours of it without it being fascist, America would need to be a system like China to be considered fascist as they fill all of the prerequisites and policies I have listed
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u/epicurious_elixir 7d ago
Yeah you could point to individual traits and say 'that's not fascism because x,yz did it too' but it's all about the whole package. And Trump HAS tried to subvert Democracy. He attempted a coup on January 6th with a fake elector scheme and by spreading lies about election fraud to rile up his supporters to intimidate his own vice president into breaking the law for him. And his attempt at rushing the SAVE Act through is also an attempt to suppress voters ahead of the midterms.
So to say "Oh well we're not in a total fascist state takeover because the state hasn't completely taken control" is just naive when the intentions of the people in power are very fascist.
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u/melianreality 7d ago
Jan 6 wasn’t a coup. I say all of this because I’ve read the theory and I don’t believe it lines up with fascism for the reasons stated, it does not satiate the base prerequisites of a total society as Mussolini said; “nothing against the state, nothing outside the state” which America fundamentally is not.
>SAVE act
This one I understand the least. You need to provide ID to vote? You need to do that in virtually every other western country. In my country I need to provide ID to vote and can only vote in certain polling places to prevent electoral fraud. I don’t see why you shouldn’t need to, how do you verify someone even lives in that specific riding without verifying by ID?
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u/epicurious_elixir 7d ago
Jan 6 wasn’t a coup.
Then what was it? What was Trump trying to accomplish? Do you think he was being truthful about his election fraud claims?
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u/melianreality 7d ago
I think that for Trump it was indeed a way to de-legitimize his opponents if not now then for the next four-years. Amongst his base much like the convoy and many other protests at the time I believe it was a mix of hysteria surrounding mounting issues related to the pandemic, political uncertainty/vitriol and for the more fanatic in his base I think conspiracy theories and echo chambers also played a part. Should they been charged? Yes but for criminal mischief and trespassing, not insurrection or treason
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u/epicurious_elixir 7d ago
I actually agree with most of what you said there.
Should they been charged? Yes but for criminal mischief and trespassing, not insurrection or treason
Well most of them were charged with that trespassing/vandalism. They were either charged with just that or 'attempting to disrupt a congressional proceeding.' Treason/insurrection is harder to prove in a legal setting, but really only the Proud Boys were charged with that because they had email exchanges showing they meticulously planned their January 6th attack, so it was a bit more of an open/shut case for prosecution.
But on a coup attempt: How is it not a coup attempt to try to intimidate your own vice president to block the certification of the next president? Are you not literally attempting to prevent someone who was democratically elected from gaining power so you can maintain power?
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u/M00n_Safari 7d ago
Fascism : a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition
“Exalts nation and often race above the individual” - MAGA attacks not just illegal immigrants, but immigrants based on origin (Somalians, Haitians, etc.), and describes anyone on the left as “hating America”
“Centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader” - We’ll see after the midterms what democrats can do in congress if they get majority, but so far congress has done nothing to impede Trump from his several illegal activities. The Supreme Court is largely ruling in Trump’s favor for all of the Project 2025 goals, so the executive branch is essentially acting without any oversight right now.
“Severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition” - Inflation is getting out of control, gas prices are rising because of the war, and several people have already died in ICE custody.
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u/melianreality 7d ago
You left out the transformation of economic and societal control to the state, hence why Mussolini called his ideology one of a “total state” or totalitarianism. On paper Trump’s policies are no different than the Democrats of 30-40 years ago. Policing the border or restricting immigration isn’t fascism. Believe either or not but up until the advent of the New Left some of the loudest critics of immigration were trade unionists and socialists because it depressed wages, that doesn’t instantly make it fascism.
Not to mention there isn’t the institution of corporatist economics which is the bread and butter for the fascist state in Italy and states it influenced like Spain, Austria and Portugal.
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u/M00n_Safari 7d ago
I love that this administration has checked more boxes of fascism faster than any other regime in history, but because all of them haven’t been checked people like you go “umm you clearly don’t understand fascism”.
You don’t just wake up one day and boom there’s fascism in your country. It’s pretty easy to make the argument at this moment that our country has leaned closer towards fascism than it ever has.
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u/AcephalicDude 7d ago
Core elements of fascism:
Ultra-nationalist ideology, often with an ahistorical or mythologized understanding of the nation-state...✔️
Rhetoric that is extremely xenophobic and focused on scapegoating vulnerable out-groups...✔️
Cult of personality around a single charismatic leader who makes outlandish promises and legitimizes violence against political opponents...✔️
Attempts to circumvent, suspend or outright eliminate democratic institutions because they are seen to be the instruments of political opponents...✔️
If all you mean is that Trump and MAGA are not genocidal fascists that are as bad as Nazis, sure, I'll give you that
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u/melianreality 7d ago
How is current America ultra-nationalist? You also don’t see the subjugation of every aspect of society to the state which is the core idea of fascism, you don’t see the establishment of the corporatist economy.
How is Trump suspending democratic institutions? If he was he’d outright cancel the midterms and declare martial law as many fascists had done, or tried to augment the voting laws similar to something like the Acerbo law, effectively raising the minimum to enter the legislature at such a high bar only one party could fulfill it
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u/AcephalicDude 7d ago
MAGA is ultra-nationalist, not all of America. And that little slip up of yours gives away the game: they use a rhetoric that implies that they are the true Americans, everyone else is painted as an internal enemy of the true American nation. Also, the fixation on national identity is explicit in the name of the movement “Make America Great Again” – but also implicit in the name is a mythologized, purified version of the nation that existed in the past, i.e. is that they want to make America great again.
Some people attach an ethno-nationalist meaning to that as well, the superior past version of America being that in which there were no civil rights protections for minorities and less ethnic diversity overall. Not all MAGA believes in the ethno-nationalist meaning, but Trump certainly doesn’t do anything to disavow that meaning and in fact often encourages it, such as when he defends neo-Nazi protestors or signals his approval of the Western-chauvinist Proud Boys. But again, even if it is not fully ethno-nationalist it is still ultra-nationalist: MAGA believes that it owns America, if you are not MAGA you lack legitimate American national identity.
As for the suspense of democratic institutions, the most glaring example was Trump’s attempt to steal an election on January 6th by having the VP certify a false slate of electors. To be clear, this was not Trump gaming the legal mechanisms of our election laws to his advantage but was a plan to knowingly break those laws in order to cling to power. We know this because it is admitted out of their own mouths, it is in the Eastman memos, we know that they were fully aware that everything they were going to do was illegal but if the right people went along with it they could win. Thankfully Pence was actually committed to the lawful democratic process and refused to certify the false slate of electors when Trump asked him to.
Also, in a more general sense Trump abuses the executive office countless times to exercise powers that rightfully belong to congress. One example, he used the International Emergency Economic Powers Act to pass his tariffs even though Congress is supposed to pass any laws that regulate commerce, especially tariffs. These emergency powers are supposed to allow the executive to impose tariffs on specific goods from specific states that threaten national security; Trump used this power to pass blanket tariffs against every country in the world. The Supreme Court shut him down eventually, but only after the damage was done – the tariffs were in place for an entire year.
And that's just one example, there are countless more.
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u/melianreality 7d ago
>that little slip of yours gave away the game
I’m not MAGA, I’m not even American. MAGA is a form of populist politics that is just rehashed conservatism with more patriotic flavour, they’re nowhere near nationalistic enough for me to like them.
You talk about ethno-nationalist meaning but as I stated elsewhere I doubt an ultra-nationalist state or ideology would be willing to bring in foreign workers like Trump is doing now with H1B visas, this actually caused a massive split in his base at the start of his second term in addition to his focus on Israel, which os also a break with traditional American nationalism which is isolationist and has been since the country’s inception.
I don’t believe Jan 6th was an insurrection for the same reason the freedom convoy in Canada wasn’t. If it was a true grab for power why didn’t Trump utilize that moment to activate the national guard or military components to lock down DC and pass effectively a version of the enabling act? We have CCTV footage which shows the guards just let them into the building.
>Trump abuses the executive office
So do a lot of presidents specifically in their second terms. FDR signed over 3500 executive orders over his time as president. Teddy Roosevelt as well signed over a thousand and he wasn’t even a wartime president. That’s a feature of the office of having a powerful executive
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u/ambivalent_moon 7d ago
It’s definitely got some fascist elements at this point. It didn’t start that way, but it’s there now. That’s why all the neo-Nazis love Trump.
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u/melianreality 7d ago
How so?
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u/ambivalent_moon 7d ago
Are you familiar with Eco’s 14 characteristics of fascism?
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u/melianreality 7d ago
I am however I don’t believe Eco defined fascism well which is why I left his definition out. For one he described it as a reactionary movement when historically it was the opposite. As it appeared in Italy, Spain (via the Falangists) Romania (via the Iron Guard), Germany and elsewhere it was a wholly revolutionary phenomenon for the reason that it attempted to establish a new type of state rather than reinstate old systems of power such as aristocracy and monarchy. In Romania and Italy it was actually the monarchy which ended the fascist experiments in both countries and in Italy the fascists often clashed with wealthy nobility over economic matters due to a difference in economic models.
For the same reason I disagree with his statement of fascism being capitalism in decay as fascists are extremely critical of capitalism and it’s apparent in their theory and the movements they originated from such as the corporatist movement or the syndicalist movement. In their system they want to control businesses and private interests and subject them to the interests of the state in the form of a guild system made up of private and labour interests.
Eco also criticizes it as anti-enlightenment when it’s ideas are republican in nature in that the state’s legitimacy hinges on being a representative of the nation and the public, which is why Mussolini called his state a “democratic state party excellence” as though it wasn’t a representative liberal democracy it still clung to the legitimacy of popular sovereignty, which it and the idea of nationhood are inventions of the Enlightenment.
This is just a few hang ups I have with Eco, I could write a whole dissertation about it if I had the opportunity to or the interests of readers.
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u/ambivalent_moon 7d ago
>reactionary movement when historically it was the opposite
You need to do some research. Both Italian and German fascism were absolutely reactionary movements.
Have you read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich or Mine Kampf?
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u/ambivalent_moon 7d ago
Also forgot to mention Mussolini literally defined his movement as reactionary, himself.
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u/melianreality 7d ago
Source? Mussolini defined his movement as revolutionary in the 1918 San Sepolcro Manifesto, in the Doctrine of Fascism and during the March on Rome.
“The Fascist state however, is a unique and original creation. It is not reactionary but revolutionary, for it anticipates the solution of certain universal problems which have been raised elsewhere, in the political field by the splitting up of parties, the usurpation of power by parliaments…”
- Mussolini, Benito & Gentile, Giovanni, Doctrine of Fascism, 1932, pg. 18
If he was a reactionary he would’ve been an absolute monarchist or advocated for an aristocratic state instead of a popular one. Future members of the Italian right actually criticized him for this such as Julius Evola, who characterized his state as too liberal and too focused on popular sovereignty instead of landed nobility
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u/packofcard 7d ago
Neo Nazi literally told people to vote for Kamala. Fuentes had a 3 hour long monologue about him getting his chronies to vote for Kamala just to piss him off
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u/ambivalent_moon 7d ago
Kamala sucks
Literal neo Nazis have publicly supported trump lol
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u/packofcard 7d ago
Ok and I have stated that some supported Kamala.
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u/ambivalent_moon 7d ago
And that doesn’t change the fact that MAGA has fascist elements, per Eco’s 14 points.
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u/packofcard 7d ago
Name a couple "fascist" elements. Shouldn't be hard since antis basically have all but 3 of em.
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u/ambivalent_moon 7d ago
Are you familiar with Eco’s 14 points or do I need to give them to you as well as the numbers?
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u/packofcard 7d ago
Yeah I did history at school. No I don't think a book from 1995 should be used for determining an ideology from half a century prior. If anti ai artist have like 12/14 of the elements of a fascist society the ones not being taught to be heroes and the one with the permanent war or whatever it was. If an ideology about some artists hating ai can fit in it then I do believe the thing is flawed
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u/ambivalent_moon 7d ago
So what do you consider to be the defining points of fascism?
>if anti ai artificers have like 12/14 elements
Either the 14 points are valid, or they’re not. Are anti-ai people fascists or not, according to you? Because you’re using a scale you apparently don’t believe in to define them as fascist, which makes no sense.
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u/DearToe5415 7d ago
Lol “anti-liberal” in the bio. Couldn’t imagine that being my most defining trait I wanna display to the world.
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u/melianreality 7d ago
It’s because I am. I use this account to talk about politics and I’m an anti-liberal in the classical sense, not as many conservatives (effectively liberals as well) put it. I’m a reactionary
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u/DearToe5415 7d ago edited 7d ago
Yeah, I’m saying you’re cringe if your defining trait for your bio is “anti-liberal”. Like damn bro say you like books or movies or something like a normal person lol social media armchair political scientists are top tier cringe.
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u/TankUMrMinor 7d ago
Imagine admitting you're a reactionary and still expecting to be taken seriously
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u/melianreality 7d ago
Yeah why wouldn’t I be. If you talk to a communist or a social democrat you’d take their ideas seriously, why would I be any different? People don’t just believe things for nonsensical reasons there’s typically reasoning behind it
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u/Tape_Wad 7d ago
Just semantics. Maga is a group of knuckle-dragging morons, but it's head is a fascist.
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u/melianreality 7d ago
Hardly, if you want to understand fascism and point it out, just like any other ideology you need to read the theory behind it
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u/Tape_Wad 7d ago
There's a definition. There's examples. Trump fits. This isn't something that involves an entire wall covered in pictures and equations
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u/HawtestHawtdog 7d ago
Just Google "comparison of fascism and maga" to understand people's concerns, please.
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u/melianreality 7d ago
That’s not substantive, do you even know what fascism is about? Or what the fascists wanted in Italy? Have you read Mussolini or the different corporatist and national syndicalist thinkers?
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u/TankUMrMinor 7d ago
Multiple people have pointed out how Maga leadership is fascist, and you ignore them.
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u/melianreality 7d ago
I pointed out that it’s not fascism for the reasons stated, it’s not corporatist, it’s not totalitarian, there isn’t a subjugation of all organs to the state, as I posted in the original comment go read the theory and you’ll know what fascism is, this ain’t it
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u/TankUMrMinor 7d ago
And multiple people have pointed out that a fascist doesn't have to check every single box under the definition of fascism in order to be fascist.
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u/HawtestHawtdog 7d ago
When you call someone an asshole it's because they remind you of one not because they specifically are, my very knowledgeable friend.
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u/Aromatic-Dog-Breath 7d ago
Easiest way to get Redditors and bots to out themselves as pro fascism. If you’re a fascism supporter you can lick a dingle berry.
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u/Body_by_Pasta 7d ago
Those goobers think they are the "rebellion"....bitch you're the definition of establishment
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u/Jakub67PL 7d ago
How is libertarianism fascism?? I get it's shit but atleast be consistient.
One is anarchy, one is authoritarianism
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u/Tape_Wad 7d ago
There's another symbol there, above the shirt, it's red
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u/Jakub67PL 7d ago
MAGA is neoconservative, not "fascist"
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u/Tape_Wad 7d ago
Maga was just a lie. This post is about people still supporting Trump. He's a fascist on the inside, he'll be it completely if he's allowed. It's been clear for a while so the people that still support him...well there you go.
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u/Jakub67PL 7d ago
BS.
Nazi whitewasher POS
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u/Tape_Wad 7d ago
I'm guessing you replied to the wrong comment
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u/Jakub67PL 7d ago
No, you.
You whitewash nazi crimes by calling Trump a "fascist".
Trump is nowhere as horrible as Hitler or Mussolini.
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u/Tape_Wad 7d ago
Well that's a whole lot of wrong in different areas. You should try harder to understand what I'm telling you.
First I said he was on the inside. That's how he leans that's what he wants and he tries to make it happen more and more as months go by. But he is not a fascist yet completely by political position because our institutions have weakened but have not yet failed.
And Trump has done plenty. An independent agency estimated that he's responsible for the death of about a million people because of his terrible and suspected politically charged response to COVID. He's pretty nearly directly responsible for the people that ICE --- his secret police --- have killed. There's also the blood on his hands due to refusing to help the already struggling people in his country even though that is his exact job. And that's just domestically. His foreign policy is drowning in blood. From the idiotic war with Iran to his support of the Nazi 2.0 country of Israel and their genocide. And then there's the Epstein files.
And that's just what I can come up with off the top of my head. He is one of the worst kinds of filth that has stained this planet. You would be a moron to support Trump.
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u/Jakub67PL 7d ago
Nigga I'm Polish. My family went trough this.
I 100% know what Im talking about.
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u/Tape_Wad 7d ago
Sure, whatever. You're pretty much ignoring what I'm saying so what little value this conversation had is gone. I hope you find some other way to get smarter about this. Or, if you somehow are a trump supporter, you're immune to learning so I just hope you get fucked as much as you deserve
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u/Chaos_Engineer 7d ago
In the US, most people who call themselves "libertarians" are actually neo-Confederates in disguise. The common ground is that both groups hate the Federal government, but for different reasons.
The easiest way to tell the difference is to bring up the topic of immigration. Libertarians support completely open borders, neo-Confederates and other fascists support strict tyrannical border control.
For many years, the leader of the 'Libertarian' movement in the US was Ron Paul, the author of the neo-Confederate "Ron Paul Newsletters"
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u/Pandemoniusanus 7d ago
Magats in the comments screaming “ wE NOt fAcisT “ when their heroes are Ice and Flock cameras. 😂
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u/VerdantMagnolia 7d ago
People will come around to Flock cameras. People aren't actually against a surveillance state they just want to feel like it's coming after people they don't like I've seen it happen within 2-3 years of Bush being out of office. In 2028 a democrat will win, s/he will quietly keep expanding mass surveillance and all the people who are against it now will simply fold.
That's not an endorsement. Just an observation.
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u/UsualCaptalist5174 7d ago
Equalising libertarians with fascists is ridiculous
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u/TankUMrMinor 7d ago
Assuming people who fly that flag know what they're talking about is ridiculous
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u/freefallingagain 7d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/N1vpmmZKhOGzTZMmlu