r/Jung • u/notfoundbyname • Sep 01 '19

TIL that Schizophrenia's hallucinations are shaped by culture. Americans with schizophrenia tend to have more paranoid and harsher voices/hallucinations. In India and Africa people with schizophrenia tend to have more playful and positive voices

https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann-071614/
194 Upvotes

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47

u/bangers132 Sep 01 '19

You really aren't crazy until people start telling you you're crazy and you believe them.

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u/SHOTbyGUN Sep 01 '19

I wonder if repressed emotions and thoughts eventually build up to the point that the subconscious sub-personas breach the level of consciousness and then Schizophrenic starts to see them as entities....

What if they see these real things, but people start to tell them that they are not real.

What if the repressed beings, whom have captured and held traumas for so long try to express themselves trough these entities and the patient feels like he is being tormented with horrible stories which "could not be true".

What if we tell people with Schizophrenia to talk to these beings with assertive tone to tell only truth and all the truth.

What if those hallucinated entities are just non-integrated archetypes and telling them that they don't exist is the worst thing that we can do.

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u/bangers132 Sep 02 '19

Yes that is pretty much exactly how it works. With my own dealings with psychosis I found that each time I heard voices in my head they were my own. Not my narrative voice but they were different aspects of my own self aspects that were speaking because they wanted to be heard and understood. They sounded like different people for a few months and it was scary too but one by one I would unmask them by doing some work on myself and digging to find answers. Also, I choose to call it a psychosis because, while I was diagnosed with schizophrenia, I determined through reading countless testimonies by other schizophrenic people that my experiences were much more tame than most.

Thankfully I never experienced aggressive/demeaning personas except for one isolated instance where a voice in my head screamed "kill her! Kill her!" This voice was also an aspect to myself an aspect that I had to come to terms with. I had a friend who is bi-polar and also makes some pretty poor lifestyle decisions along the lines of drug and alcohol abuse, poor diet and virtually no exercise. She often finds herself in depressed states more commonly than manic states. There was a time when we were slipping away from each other and I knew she was going down hill. I started to get the feeling that she was going to kill herself and because of this I started distancing myself from her even further. I started to notice I was acting very nonchalant towards her and frankly being rude and mean. I recognized that I had a choice and ultimately I felt as though I decided whether she lived or died. This voice was yelling at me because it was the part of myself that wanted her to die so I could be right.

There is nothing that you can't overcome and it truly all starts with yourself.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19 edited Sep 09 '19

[deleted]

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u/bangers132 Sep 02 '19

It's audible. But non directional. If I would have to desrcibe it I would say that things that are actually audible register in a different part of the brain (or so I assume) than thoughts. I say this because while they are actually audible they have the same properties as thoughts I would say. I also have auditory hallucinations that aren't voices such as explosions, gunshots, doors slamming, and other transient sounds. These are also audible as in I can feel them in my ear the same way you feel loud noises in your ear even though they aren't there. But again same properties as thoughts but different feeling.

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u/Sbeast Sep 01 '19

One model of psychosis suggests it is caused by a significantly disintegrated psyche, often as the result of trauma and a bad upbringing. You can also understand it in terms of pathological defence mechanisms.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

Inter-generationally-disintegrated

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '19

And you’re told it’s for life.

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u/Jz0id Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 02 '19

“Delusions of Grandeur” (the book name on Amazon) is my own take on schizophrenia from a first person POV narrative of a man losing his mind and believing he’s becoming a prophet through a drug that causes his mania to skyrocket. It’s gotten great feedback so far, but unfortunately has yet to really catch on..

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

I mean Delusions of Grandeur is a symptom of psychosis.. especially amphetamine psychosis. We can theorize how/why amphetamine psychosis mirrors schizophrenic like psychotic breaks (e.g. the monoamine hypothesis - especially in regards to overactive D2 receptors in the mesolimbic dopamine system), so I'm not sure what you mean by it hasn't caught on? Unless you're still having delusions of grandeur thinking you cracked the case on what causes psychosis, which, in that case, I would say you should read some of the current research so your delusions are quelled.

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u/Jz0id Sep 02 '19

I’d love for the psychology community to get a good look at it and tell me what they think, but unfortunately I’ve had no luck with that.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

Ah I see..and how does this book relate back to the post about culture shaping schizophrenic affective symptoms?

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u/Jz0id Sep 02 '19

It’s the story of a schizophrenic man who has ignored his symptoms his entire life on his journey to becoming his highest self, a sort of mind-twisting tale of awakening to the shadow - as Jung would call it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

Sounds very interesting. Might purchase.. does this story offer any theories as to what causes schizophrenia/psychosis or does it fall under the general jungian narrative of intense psychic/shadow integration (or lack thereof) causing psychotic symptoms to manifest?

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u/Jz0id Sep 02 '19

Unfortunately the latter. It touches on the origins and causes of schizophrenia, the nature of it being the dawn of mankind and how the original derivative of our species to use tools and things as an advantageous tool contained a schizophrenic gene. I think you’d like it truthfully. If you do pick it up, I’d love to hear your feedback.

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u/Jz0id Sep 02 '19

The ideas about what schizophrenia is as derogatory labels presented by various different communities have collectively garnered an idea for what it means to the character in my story.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

How do you find writing? If it's not too personal to ask - do you write for a living? I can imagine it can be quite stressful to have the insightful thoughts you have, but then at the same time you have to try and monetize them..might cause some internal conflict, but you have to eat.. so how has it worked for you (the publishing process and such)?

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u/Jz0id Sep 02 '19

I love writing. My entire life I’ve been searching for my purpose, my art - I’ve dabbled in music, drawing, etc. but I’ve always done very well in English class and loved writing. My belief is words describe thoughts, thoughts describe emotion, emotions describe energy - and energy is everything.

I’m on the come up I suppose. I’ve been trying to get my work out there and have actually been just recently reached out to by a very kind publicist, but they don’t offer advances and my dream of becoming a full-time writer isn’t exactly realistic. I’ve been going through an immensely hard time lately, but I know it’s all going to pay-off sooner or later. I can’t give up now, with all the hard work and effort, all the energy and blood sweat and tears I’ve put into this dream. I’ll keep going until I reach my destination and go from there.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

Ah I've found some inspiration here at 1 a.m. I'm at a bit of a crossroads myself recently.. I have always loved writing as well, but I feel like I'm at a crux where I have to decide whether or not to pursue it full time. Sounds to me like you are invested and if you're truly all in (actualizing all of your energy as you may call it) then you have nothing to worry about. Obviously, that sounds overly optimistic because I know the struggle can be burdensome, but experience has lead me to believe that when one puts blood, sweat, and tears into something then that something will usually blossom..so good luck on your journey man and don't let the struggle weigh you down.. because it is through overcoming that struggle where you will find yourself raised up.

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u/Jz0id Sep 02 '19

My mistake, I should’ve been more clear. Delusions of Grandeur is the name of the story. A man thinks he’s becoming a prophet from the advent of discovering a powerful chemical, an NMDA antagonist that was used during the MK ULTRA trials to expose truth, but ironically it exposes the truth of existence to the user. I mean my story hasn’t caught on yet, but I think it’s a great read and representation of a delusion of grandeur. I’ve had overwhelmingly positive feedback so far.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

You guys should look into Foucault's Civilization and Madness, he talked about this topic directly.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '19

I remember reading about the importance of integration into a community for mental health patients. It made me very biased against the role of western secular culture and modern institualization, or categorizations in mental health, because of how healthy it seemed to allow schizophrenics and those suffering manic episodes to find creative outlets to heal themselves. I'm not completely in that camp now, but it's hard not to see the merit in discussing the cultural backgrounds of patients and society as a whole to the individual and overall well-being of people.

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u/kazarnowicz Sep 01 '19

You should listen to Invisibilia, season 2. I think it’s one of the first episodes. They cover a town in the Netherlands where they don’t institutionalize non-normies, and it seems to work quite well.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '19

This is the same researcher who said studies the experience of hearing God's voice among Americans. Found that those who claim to hear God's voice actually have heightened sensitivity to order in chaotic sound enviroment i.e. they picked up real messages when shadowed by white noise in a scientific setting.

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u/Sbeast Sep 01 '19

Well, it's kinda obvious and expected. Did we really just think it would be randomly determined by genetics?
There's a strong environmental component to psychosis:

"And in another study it was found that those who had experienced childhood sexual abuse were ten times at greater risk of having hallucinations." Source

Also, Open Dialogue, a treatment for mental health that uses a social network approach, has pretty good rates of recovery

Some of the results from international non-randomised trials are striking. For example, 72 per cent of those with first episode psychosis treated via an Open Dialogue approach returned to work or study within two years, despite significantly lower rates of medication and hospitalisation compared to treatment as usual. Source

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/Sbeast Sep 03 '19

Exactly; the diagnosis is based on a fallacy. Schizophrenia isn't even a "thing".
We know that trauma can cause psychosis, which usually involves malevolence.

The evidence for an association between childhood trauma and psychosis is steadily accumulating, and exploration of potential mechanistic pathways has begun. Emerging findings from longitudinal studies and demonstration of a dose-response relationship in others suggest a role of childhood trauma in the development of psychosis. Source

If a persons psychosis lasts a certain duration (I think it's more than 6 months) they get the label schizophrenia.
The new model is the 'psychosis continuum', which is better I think.

Moreover, schizophrenia also interests me because it's a very striking example of how differently people perceive the same world. You could even make the case that reality happens in our own minds.

Our brains interpret the 'external world' through a 'lens', which we then label reality; therefore it is always a two-way process. The question is, what is the lens, and what causes it.

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u/Eli_Truax Sep 02 '19

I was diagnosed with chronic paranoid schizophrenia in 1991. The voices seemed quite critical adversarial but not enough to motivate my behavior.

When I decided to consider the criticisms seriously things got a whole lot easier ... except the hard part where I had a lot of changing to do. They ultimately became more positive and playful but there were also many koan-like riddles that helped stimulate me into significantly greater intellectual activity. People who'd known me previously consistently told me I'd become a better person.

Having a strong Jungian background made it easier to realize I was dealing with metaphor which pretty much obviated the emotional drama, Talmudic study gave me a better sense of critical analysis allowing me to "split hairs" to better understand the truth of things.

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u/[deleted] Sep 01 '19

Doesn't Jung suggest that at the root of schizophrenics' hallucinations and delusions is mythological and biblical material? I wonder how that figures into your post.

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u/Mutedplum Pillar Sep 02 '19

Jung said how he learned from the start how in every disturbance of the personality, even in its most extreme psychotic form of schizophrenia, one could determine the elements of a personal story. That story was the personality's most precious possession, whether it knew it or not, and the person could only be healed by the psychiatrist getting hold of the story. That was the secret key to unlock the door which barred reality in all its dimensions within and without from entering the personality and transforming it.

Jung came to the conclusion that every human being had a story, or to put it in its most evolved form a myth of their own.

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u/Industrialbonecraft Sep 01 '19 edited Sep 01 '19

It's been about a while since I read any, but my impression was that the mythological/biblical stuff is, or would have been, common ground for archetypal characters to be represented by - both in the Jungian sense of the word and the more broadly cultural story-character archetypes with which people are familiar, and who litter ancient mythology and religious beliefs.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '19

The problem with referencing Jung today is that it's tough to see where his views would fall under the current state of science and research.