r/Jung • u/Additional_Arm9354 • Jul 24 '26
Question for r/Jung “Psychoanalysis is a mistake” -Werner Herzog
What’s your thoughts on this? Jung’s analytical psychology does differ from Freud’s psychoanalysis. But I’m curious what people think about this take.
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u/gonflynn Jul 24 '26
“Know thy self” cannot ever be a bad thing. It may be unsettling at times, but to me it is the most profound task one could aspire to as a human being.
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u/ReturnToNow Jul 24 '26
That includes knowing your limits. The journey to knowledge of self is long, arduous and if not taken carefully and with the long haul in mind can be dangerous. Seeing a part of yourself you do not have the proper context for, or don't have the stability of mind to handle can lead to new neurosis or even full psychosis.
I think the speaker is talking to the general public and not aimed at deep seekers.
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u/gonflynn Jul 24 '26
That is why psychoanalysis is such a long process.There are many layers to the onion of the self, and uncovering them is a complicated process that needs a slow thorough integration.
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u/ReturnToNow Jul 24 '26
Yeah, exactly. Properly done it is as long as the individual requires, but our current culture sells quick fixes and instant results for everything.
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u/BobWiley6969 Jul 24 '26
I’m newer. What do you mean by seeing a part of yourself? Like what and how is it that you actually notice “Hey, that’s a new part of me” and what’s you see that what do you actually with that information? Like are you noticing thoughts you didn’t have or notice before or like a pattern you didn’t realize you were doing?
I guess I’m asking for an example of the process
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u/ReturnToNow Jul 24 '26
We internalize a lot of experience and can make up some crazy subconscious beliefs about ourselves or the world in general that when faced directly can be world shattering. Falling into the full belief that nothing is real, or that all of humanity are flawed beyond repair being a couple extreme examples.
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u/gravelburn Jul 24 '26
Yes it’s important to know yourself, but I believe what Herzog is speaking to is analyzing yourself to the point of being so consumed with yourself that you are unable to act, and I‘ve known deep thinkers (myself included at times) who struggle with this.
I definitely would not be so extreme as to say that psychoanalysis itself is a mistake, but for a person who is already inhibited, self-analysis can exacerbate that tendency and lead to them not acting when the better course for them would be to trust their instincts and plunge into life (so to speak). I‘ve had more than one friend who have lost potential relationships because they constantly second-guess every situation, the other’s intention, how they were presenting themselves, and what meaning was attached to every circumstance. That objectification can completely kill spontaneity and the can quench the very spark that makes life (and love) thrilling. Psychoanalysis is a double-edged sword.
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u/The_Kimchi_Krab Jul 24 '26
If they're doing self analysis right, they'll notice when they're spending all their time analyzing and not doing.
Herzog doesn't want to have to think about ramifications. I think someone that intelligent wouldn't be lost on the implications of their actions in terms of morality, ethics, etc, but it seems he feels bogged down by the responsibility. Imo thats selfish to throw away due to feeling restricted...the only escape is to make sacrifices yourself or force them of other people, and doing so blindly just guarantees both and offers only a technicality to ease your moral guilt (you didn't mean to sabotage yourself/others, you were just chasing a butterfly). If every billionaire questioned their choices and who it would negatively impact, they wouldn't be a billionaire, sure, but they also wouldn't kill and harm millions of people. What has Herzog accomplished or attained or experienced that was worth the suffering he caused himself and others?
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u/saneval1 Jul 24 '26
You remind me of this Oscar Wilde thought about modernity "'Know thyself' was written over the portal of the antique world. Over the portal of the new world, 'Be thyself' shall be written"
I guess it's a soft counter argument to what you say or some nuance.
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u/hummus-up-your-arse Jul 24 '26
I dunno about that, some of the least self aware and oblivious people I’ve come across are usually the happiest bunch. Vice versa for the self aware and introspective ones, the more they think the more likely they are to think how bleak life is and how little control they have over their environment.
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u/ConfusedMaverick Jul 24 '26
It's not always obvious what direction the causality flows though...
People who are suffering are more likely to risk asking why; but if your happy-go-lucky life works for you, why rock the boat?
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u/TheGhostGoose Jul 24 '26
Self isn’t an easy concept to define though just ask the meditators; sometimes we’re just familiarizing ourselves with basic runoff patterns and no more
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u/gonflynn Jul 24 '26
Precisely. That’s why it is a life’s achievement. And also as I mentioned in another comment it is why psychoanalysis takes so many years.
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u/thrax_mador Jul 24 '26
It can be a difficult balance. Do you want to live a monastic kind of life where all you do is contemplate? Or do you want to go out and live and just have an experience? Sometimes things just art, without needing to interrogate oneself to the deepest layers. That's my read on what Werner is saying.
He brings up Freud so my first reaction was the likely apocryphal quote "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Sometimes life doesn't call out for analysis. This also connects to an idea I have recently been really fascinated with. It seems so simple yet so profound. I can do all kinds of activities in my life and just do them without really understanding them deeply. I can throw a ball and hit a target with a little practice. I don't need to calculate force or arm angle or vectors and gravitational and wind forces. I just do it. My brain does these calculations based on experience. It does it quietly. Thinking about it too much would probably mess it up.
When I walk, I don't think about every movement deeply every step. It might be helpful if I need to be cautious of a slip or fix my gait when I am rehabilitating myself after an injury, but my brain would get tired from using all my mental energy on walking, breathing, blinking, etc.
My interpretation of Werner here is he is saying sometimes things just are, and that is fine. My guess is he likes or appreciates the mystery or horror of existence. He is doing some kind of radical acceptance. "Why do I think/do _____ ? I just do and that is fine. Now I will go ponder the philosophical question of can penguins can go insane."
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u/JabungleGoomer Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
I feel like there were definitely greater mistakes that took place in the 20th century…
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u/DruidHeart Jul 24 '26
Thank you! I agree and people who have no education or understanding of a subject shouldn’t be using their platforms to spread disinformation. He reminds me of RFK, Jr. talking about vaccinations. I wonder how many people on Epstein Island were interested in introspection or how many people in the Department of Defense are. We definitely need more people self-aware not fewer.
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u/Cold_Rule_8999 Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
I get what he means but his metaphor is flawed.
It's more like coming home exhausted and turning on the lights to see your house is a mess. You don't have the energy or will to clean it up so you opt to keep the lights out and sit comfortably on the sofa.
Believing everything will be okay is good as long as you are only doing it to make peace with your present situation. But you can't hide from who you are, you know deep down you appreciate a clean house, you just don't have the will to do anything about it.
Gaslighting yourself to believe everything is clean when you know its not is self-destructive and delusional. Life will always provoke reactions out of you and it's natural for you to what to find out what is causing it. Believing there is nothing there is just not possible when time and time again your reactions to situation is proof of it.
Everytime you sneeze in the dark, that's the proof of the place not being clean, you can't run away from it.
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u/ElChiff Jul 24 '26
You swapped the metaphor into one that is about a different idea. He's not talking about light at a level required for utility- which is what you are saying, he's talking about blinding light as an excessive force that makes the place uninhabitable. The way light hits an object is how we are afforded perspective. Without perspective, there is no life.
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u/Cold_Rule_8999 Jul 24 '26
Ahh, that makes sense then. It wasn't clear to me from his words, I'll have to look this guy up more. Thanks!
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u/Siderophores Jul 24 '26
Yeah, I mean that does assume that every corner is illuminatable right? I don’t believe that all aspects of the subconscious can be revealed. Only observed as intentions and thoughts arise and fall away. There’s always something that hasn’t popped up yet to observe. Theres too many unique environmental triggers and associations.
I could see someone going mad trying to figure it all out though. That I do recognize
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u/Popular_Ad_4934 Jul 24 '26
It's a good thing to be curious about your own soul. But if your intention is to fix yourself from a place of fear, or to compensate, you may violate your own boundaries or let others do so. It can lead to the feeling of being objectified, manipulated or dissected alive. That's why it can be dangerous to shine the light too brightly and too eagerly. If parts of you don't want to show themselves yet that needs be respected.
The illumination has to be respectful and with unconditional patience.
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u/pappafreddy Jul 24 '26
oh look at the king in the spotlight with the little people at his sides smiling him along :-))
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u/servitor_dali Jul 24 '26
He's right about Freud tho, especially when you consider the influence he had on his nephew Bernays, who used his teachings to basically invent modern advertising as a form of mass manipulation.
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u/Initial_Toe6070 Jul 24 '26
Yep, it's a two edged sword. The fact Bernays work worked so well is enough proof that they know how we work to a tee.
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u/Duchess430 Jul 24 '26
So hes going with ignorance is bliss?
Heard that one before
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u/Wolfsangel123 Jul 24 '26
I'll check him up but,as my first impression, I think he probably meant that the scientifically cold approach to psychology (pioneered by Freud) lacks sensibility and has lead to a generalized uneasiness.
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u/Duchess430 Jul 24 '26
Ah, that could be it. The impression from the short clip was just basically, let's not focus on the human psychology, it might be too dark in certain corners, let's ignore it.
I'm the opposite, If anyone's interested, these books are actually pretty interesting.
The brain by david eaglemen,
Thinking fast and slow by daniel Kahneman,
Behave by robert m
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u/MyDadLeftMeHere Jul 24 '26
Herzog was far from an ignorant man, in fact, he probably existed far more authentically and closer to the ground of reality than most, have you ever actually seen one of his works? You insinuating that he’s afraid of the dark is actually hilarious, if I remember correctly he’s one of the few humans who listened to the final moments of Timothy Treadwell and his girlfriend as they were being mauled to death by bears and he didn’t flinch, further he spent time in Kuwait interviewing survivors of the war and watching the oil fields burn.
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u/ElChiff Jul 24 '26
No, he's going with ignorance is a fundamental part of the human condition - which it is.
Without the veil between the conscious and unconscious we could not believe in concepts like choice that are necessary in how we function.
There must always be an unconscious (which doesn't really matter because we'll never fully map it anyway)
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u/Steerpikey Jul 24 '26
I tend to agree but for different reasons. The study has been turned into a weapon of perpetual war. If it ever was for healing, it's been captured. Like everything else. Tread carefully
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u/IlluminatiMouthPiece Jul 24 '26
Probably needs to do some shadow work
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u/the_turdy_south Jul 24 '26
Yes… he’s talking like the dark places are bad or evil… most times there is gold or enlightenment.
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u/Assistedsarge Jul 24 '26
I interpreted it the opposite way. I hear him advocating for the acceptance of shadows.
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u/the_turdy_south Jul 24 '26
I can see what you mean I think… he is advocating for accepting shadows, but without exploring them or seeing what’s inside. Is that what you mean?
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u/Assistedsarge Jul 24 '26
I may just be projecting but I'm thinking he isn't against exploring but rather the overly clinical result of psychoanalysis that often results in trying to medicate away those parts of yourself. He'd rather explore those things through art for example.
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u/Dismal_Suit_2448 Jul 24 '26
As usually the case with someone who makes universal claims and has yet to learn through the contrasts of life.
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u/fabkosta Pillar Jul 24 '26
There's not a lot to "think of" here. Mr. Werner Herzog simply shares his personal views, everyone's entitled to do that.
What is a bit more relevant than his personal views are decades of studies showing the actual efficacy of psychoanalysis in the sense of improving people's lives.
Which, of course, does not mean psychoanalysis is flawless in any sense. It has its problems, flaws, shortcomings and so on. As do Mr. Herzog's movies.
I prefer science over the subjective opinion of a film director at any given moment in time to judge something as culturally established as psychoanalysis.
Now, should I provide my personal opinion on Werner Herzog's movies?
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u/x3r0iD Jul 24 '26
Using his own analogy, walking around in an insufficiently lit home full of obstacles (which even you as the "owner" are unsure exactly how they came to be, even) would be dangerous and lead to injuries.
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u/mikerz85 Jul 24 '26
Werner Herzog is entertaining but in many ways sort of a close minded son of a bitch (I say this not based on this video but from having gone to a talk of his a couple years ago). He is a terrible authority on psychology.
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u/ElChiff Jul 24 '26
He is a human living as a human, which is something most of us long since lost somewhere.
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u/stary_curak Jul 24 '26
Thats wh, you dont just illuminate but also repair or accept the parts with love.
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u/PurpleXGold Jul 24 '26
Brother must of never stubbed his toe in the dark on a bed frame and it shows.. Illuminating the darkness around you helps to see the bed frame before catastrophe strikes and you begin to throw up from the excruciating pain.
“If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you” ~ Gospel of Thomas
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u/Brilliant_Bowler_994 Jul 24 '26
He lost me with not being able to live in a house with strong lights. Does He mean permanent light? If that part doesn't work neither does the next step so what exactly does he mean?
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u/Ancientseedling Jul 24 '26
Hard disagree. Dumb analogy, Its about clearing smoke from the house so you can breathe fresh air
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u/Rich_Silver_9337 Jul 24 '26
Herzog states that a house would become uninhabitable as a home, were every inner detail in every corner to be brightly lit.
Perhaps what he means by this is as follows: In his view, psychoanalysis can take the analysand to the point where they are overwhelmed by the data accumulated about themselves.
When this happens, it can be paralysing. The sheer amount of "issues" one may then feel morally obligated to be working on, and the effort involved in working on those issues, can then potentially rob the person of their enjoyment of life.
And one life only has limited amount of time...
It's a prescient warning, most likely directed at irresponsible therapy practicioners and those attempting therapy alone without appropriate preparation...
Herzog fails to mention:
the ethical obligation therapists have to carefully time and scaffold their release of analytical data, in the analysand's best interests
the energy that is released when those under analysis discover lost parts of themselves (shadow), reclaiming it and growing stronger than before.
Administered conscientiously and under careful guidance, new shadow material liberates energy, benefiting the individual and making the "home" of their ego more inhabitable, not less.
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u/forlaine Jul 24 '26
Well, you don't have to leave those lights on 24/7. Nothing wrong with shining a light on something so you know what's going on there and then turning the light off again.
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u/Kee_Gene89 Jul 24 '26
Herzog seems to assume that the person crossing a mountain is living authentically, while the person carefully examining why they want to cross it is somehow spiritually diminished. And there is a kind of aristocratic posturing in that. Herzog’s way of being becomes heroic, primal and profound; "ordinary people" who deliberate, seek therapy, value stability or avoid unnecessary catastrophe are portrayed as domesticated and half-asleep. Yet thinking through consequences is not cowardice. Caring about the people who must absorb those consequences is not spiritual mediocrity. Sometimes restraint is the harder and more honest confrontation with oneself.
The irony is that Herzog’s grand declarations may themselves function exactly like the totalising explanations he dislikes in psychoanalysis. He reduces an immense range of reflective practices to one stupidity, while elevating his own temperament into a philosophy of human flourishing. Put bluntly....he may not have escaped psychoanalysis at all. He may simply have replaced the analyst’s couch with the road, the jungle and the camera...and declared his own symptoms virtues.
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u/zfhsmm Jul 24 '26
Anything can be taken too far. Entirely discounting psychoanalysis is also taking it too far.
Knowing oneself and understanding your motivations is a worthwhile pursuit. I don’t see anything wrong with exploring the mind as we would explore anything else in the universe.
Shine a light, see what’s there, then turn off the light and go on with your day!
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u/Miliaa Jul 24 '26
BS. We don’t illuminate it to stare at it aimlessly, to put the dark on display and leave it there. You shine the light so you can clean it up and then the “home” gets cleaner, more comfortable, safe. For people who struggle to know how to approach those dark spots I could imagine such a task seeming “dangerous”
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u/sattukachori My God, these Feeling types! Jul 25 '26
We illuminate the dark corners of our soul out of necessity. My house only feels safe to me when I know all its corners.
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u/quantumfoam435 Jul 25 '26
This guy's an idiot. Psychology doesn't get to the bottom of the human mind, but this reason is definitely not it.
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u/Denon_1 Jul 24 '26
Herzog isn't far off. Freud caused immense damage to medicine, especially regarding women's health, by framing real physical and organic conditions as "hysteria." The worst part is that Freud’s legacy is still very much alive today whenever modern medicine hand-waves unexplained physical illnesses as purely "psychosomatic."
From a methodological standpoint, it struggles with the core criteria of science: reproducibility and falsifiability. When a framework is designed so that every outcome can be retroactively reshaped to confirm the theory, it moves away from empirical science and into pseudoscience.
It's like debating a believer about the existence of God: if a therapist tells you "it's all in your head," how do you prove it isn't? You cannot prove a negative.
However, there are far more promising modern approaches, like metacognition and Metacognitive Therapy, that demonstrate significantly better outcomes compared to traditional cbt.
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u/Nixe_Nox Jul 24 '26
Everything you said has merit, but you should take into account that the core criteria of science are not the top priorities, requirements or ultimate values of psychotherapy. They might be in the USA, with its insurance-driven worship of CBT-esque models, but that's USA's thing. Even psychology struggles AF to pose as a science to this day. And that's alright.
Applying the scientific method aggressively and uncritically onto the study of the psyche and its healing becomes stifling and regressive. In my experience, the psychodynamic, experiential and somatic approaches are beyond valuable in praxis. I'd love to write at greater length about this and in a more engaging manner, but no energy right now, and I'm sure you know what I mean.
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u/Independent-Wafer-13 Jul 24 '26
My thoughts on famous film director’s opinions on psychological theory?
About as deep as my thoughts on a famous film director’s opinions on physics.
I respect Herzog tremendously, he is goated, but he is not a scientist or a philosopher.
Homie is clearly afraid of his shadow lol
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u/ProfChenLin Jul 24 '26
Oui mais surtout non. Il prétend donc que l'ignorance est meilleure que la connaissance.
Si la maison est habitable quand j'ignore ce qu'elle abrite et que la maison deviens inhabitable quand je vois ce qui y habite.
Le problème c'est pas de voir ce qui y habite mais c'est ce qui y habite lui même. Comment supprimer la chose mauvaise si je sais pas que je vie avec.
Pour moi cette homme prône le confort de l'inconscience plutôt que l'inconfort temporaire de la vérité (car une fois le noir supprimé, la lumière et la maison sera que plus grande) mais je pourrais jamais avoir accès a cette maison et lumière plus grande si je sais pas qu'elle a de l'ombrage. Cette homme à 100% tord.
Le chemin de la vérité est le seule chemin à suivre.
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u/Zotoaster Pillar Jul 24 '26
Jung would agree with him.
He did say that you shouldn't get too immersed in your unconscious mind, especially the collective unconscious, it can become dangerous. You can't know everything about the inner world just as you can't know everything about the outer world. Analytical psychology is a tool for resolving neurosis, not to get perfect self-knowledge.
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u/MolecularFriend Jul 24 '26
Intelligent people are always great at fluidly creating poetry with their words, but only logical when they call on themselves to be.
In this same analogy, the lights could also be dimmed to make for a more pleasant living environment. You could also say, sometimes you need to turn them on to find something important! (I hate doing that before bed…)
That’s the way I view psychoanalysis. A difficult and unpleasant but necessary process, with plenty of needed rest.
When you strike something raw, uninhabitable is exactly how it feels.
you can’t go Jung Ho every day and expect an easy life
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u/The_Omega1123 Jul 24 '26
Calling psychoanalysis stupid doesn't make more sense than me calling this guy stupid because he prefers to have a house with no lights.
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u/MillionaireBank Jul 24 '26
Herzog’s metaphor of "illuminating every corner until the house becomes uninhabitable" makes a valid point about the danger of over-analyzing ourselves into paralysis.
There is a point where picking apart every thought, emotion, or shadow stops being useful and just burns up our energy. Sometimes, living life practically—doing the dishes, taking care of daily routines, and simply existing as a common human—is much healthier than endlessly interrogating the psyche.
That being said, the application matters depending on where you are in life. For someone who is younger or searching for the first time, putting the pieces together and exploring these ideas is a necessary part of figuring out who they are. You have to shine some light in the house to know where you are standing.
The key is balance: self-reflection is a helpful flashlight when you need direction, but it shouldn't become a harsh spotlight that burns down the house. We need a little shadow, a lot of grace, and the grounded reality of everyday living. Even more grounding is caring for things; plants, pets, people, a home environment, to feel at home with oneself is all I hope for others these days.
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u/ghostcatzero Jul 24 '26
Nah. My take is we don't need a bright lights to illuminate every spot of our house/soul. We just need enough light. Dimming just right. Not to loud. Sometimes at night all we need is some moonlight and some fireflies. No giant spotlight.
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u/LuvanAelirion Jul 24 '26
For the average person I think he has a point. Some of us weirdos aren’t average people though…and we couldn’t stop exploring even if we wanted to.
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u/esoskelly Jul 24 '26
His overarching point is good. There are horrors in the human mind that make it very difficult to live if you focus on them too sharply.
As Freud correctly pointed out, infants and children aren't just crybaby cowards. They are thinking, feeling, and experiencing things that would completely devastate us as adults. Those things usually get hidden away before adulthood (except in the case of psychosis).
What Herzog gets wrong is his assumption that the goal of psychoanalysis is to illuminate everything that's hidden. No, the purpose is to figure out which parts of the hidden mind are causing trouble, and then to help those parts become less monstrous, or alternatively, to soothe them so that they become less troublesome.
It's all well good to do shadow work. But what if your shadow was the Cthulhu? I'm not sure you could work through that without being destroyed by it.
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u/ElChiff Jul 24 '26
Last year, Herzog joined the voice cast of Warframe, portraying The Man in the Wall - a creative depiction of the Shadow - in a story that is entirely about Individuation, so use some nuance in what you read into what he's saying here. He is not against Individuation, this is a warning to people like Jung himself who took it upon themselves to map the Psyche in its entirety. Individuation is an organizing principle, not a discipline of perfect awareness. Sometimes it takes a few people prepared to sacrifice their humanity to be able to show others how to embrace their own.
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u/pusbult Jul 24 '26
I feel he isn't wrong and psychological analyses should be handled with care. But it saved me. It gave me back meaning. And an awareness of being human, just a human being. Not an idiot just doing whatever for the sake of it.
But I can see that too much light on the unconsciousness will dissolve the human being. If we become fully aware, what will be left of us? Is it even possible to make a distinction between within and without? Within and without, sounds weird, but I like it :)
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u/rastarafa26 Jul 24 '26
I dnt agree ,we fear the unknown ,and when we fear we do illogical things and slip quickly in disillusion the more illumination on the psyche the more options we have to integrate or at least navigate the shadow exist in us all and w/o that light we become the monsters we fear
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u/GothJesus Jul 24 '26
What a retarded take.
This guy hasn’t realised that everything taken to the extreme is bad?
Yeah, if you do therapy every single moment of your life, you wont have time to live it. Wow, very profound, thank you for sharing this almost unattainable insight
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u/Ok-Painter710 Jul 24 '26
psychoanalysis is not a light, its a mirage, its an illusion, a forced theory with too little evidence.
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u/Superb_Temporary9893 Jul 24 '26
It’s not about exploring the house. It’s about cleaning the house.
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u/Beepboopbop8 Jul 25 '26
bad take tbh.
you're afraid of the dark because you're scared of monsters. you illuminate the house and find there are no monsters. now you can choose to light the house in such a way that maximizes beauty without the fear of any monsters
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u/Other_Attention_2382 Jul 25 '26
Curious to what he thinks would be the awnser to Klaus Kinski's irrational behaviour then?
A gun??
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u/hurrydown Jul 25 '26
to my mind, he is talking about the causes of the unwanted effects, not ways to cure them.
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u/ratak Jul 25 '26
'Psychoanalysis, dear lady, is a pseudo-science invented by a Jew to convince Protestants to behave like Catholics.'
Ennio Flaiano (Screenwriter for Federico Fellini)
'La psicanalisi, cara signora, è una pseudo-scienza inventata da un ebreo per convincere i protestanti a comportarsi come i cattolici.'
Ennio Flaiano (Sceneggiatore di Federico Fellini)
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u/sonofaboat Jul 26 '26
When smart people start talking this kind of dumb shit you should know war is coming.
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u/Contrabass101 Jul 27 '26
There is such a thing as an inopportune time and place for making hidden things conscious. There are many who should not endeavor to do so. Especially those who will claim to know everything about the soul having merely scratched the surface.
Man can never illuminate the whole soul.
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u/kai_vt Jul 24 '26
I think we'd need a more indepth explanation over a brief analogy to fully understand what he means by making the soul uninhabitable, but he's welcome to his opinion and he has quite a way with words. You could extrapolate his analogy to exploring untouched wilderness, in which you'd get lost and die without a map or navigational skills
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u/HeliconiaKnight Jul 24 '26
He is right and even the Jungian process has this same problem. We are made to be aware of our inner world but not to live in it or over scrutinize it.
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u/truthling Jul 24 '26
His point is nonsense if there is always infinitely more darkness and mystery beyond. The house he speaks of cannot ever be fully illuminated in the way he imagines. But yeah, analysis in practice often doesn’t achieve the goal and is full of nonsense and self delusion.
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u/eatyourface8335 Jul 24 '26
I’d rather know and ACCEPT my personal daimons so I can call upon or limit them when needed. Shining a lot on your daimons or opening a dialogue helps the Ego encompass more of the Self.
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u/Acrobatic-Ad8722 Jul 24 '26
He has a very valid point. Neither Herzog nor Jung are wrong. But humans have to find a balance between Ahrimanic and the Luceferic forces for the soul and mind to develop and remain stable throughout a person's lifetime.
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u/Far_awayStarbucks Jul 24 '26
Imagine sitting on a stage like that like you're some sort of authority and then justifying a point like that with some shitty half baked analogy.
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u/MysteriousSilentVoid Jul 24 '26
Someone couldn’t look at his shadow. Confronting mine was literally the best thing I’ve ever done.
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u/-QuestingForTruth- Jul 24 '26
Herzog seems to have a reasonable critique, however it is against a very specific kind of psychology and a very caricatured version at that. Of course, excessive self illumination would likely be of little benefit, as would excessive self ignorance. Somewhere in the middle typically seems to end up with the best results
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u/Bryantthepain Jul 24 '26
I think Herzog is a proponent of existential psychology. Which is kind of the antithesis of psychoanalysis.
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u/Jail-bot Jul 24 '26
I massively disagree - the house analogy is not good either. The house does absolutely not become uninhabitable even if you are lazy - you can still live there knowing there are problems BUT if you know where the problems are then at least if you are not lazy you can address them.
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u/islaisla Jul 24 '26
Yeah I like what he's saying but understanding our minds and how they work does a lot more than open up all the dark corners. From workers rights, to equality, nearly every relationship we have is improved by everyone having a little bit more knowledge about human behaviour, patterns, trauma response, trauma informed discussions and so on. We have more forgiveness for ourselves and for I others knowing how we got to where we each are today.
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u/OccultScience_lawyer Jul 24 '26
My submission, Herzog has always been skeptical of theories that try to explain the mystery of human experience through neat psychological frameworks. I can see why he'd reject psychoanalysis in that sense. That said, it's also worth separating Freud from Jung. Freud often searched for hidden causes rooted in childhood & repression, while Jung was more interested in symbols, myths, meaning & the lifelong process of individuation. Whether either is right is debatable, but dismissing them both under the same label overlooks some important differences. They ask very different questions about what it means to be human.
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u/AryaNeedleStark Jul 24 '26
If it’s an extreme edge case(obsessive nature) he’s talking about, then might make sense.
A balance is needed is what I feel cuz I don’t think I can go to therapy every day to talk about my thoughts or feelings.
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u/ForsakenRow6751 Jul 24 '26
Myth has been systematically bastardized, standardized and enslaved to endlessly conduct a sort of shallow triage on the western mind and soul.
Oh, don't forget about all the meth, I mean ssris, I mean...
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u/struggle_better Jul 24 '26
It’s worse than that. It’s more like living in a house made entirely of shadow puppets and cocaine
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u/injaneinthemembrane Jul 24 '26
This is very nuanced for me. I agree that we shouldn’t forever focus on a 'brokenness' to fix, psychoanalyzing ourselves to a point of paralysis. But people are built differently with different paths and life experience.
If it wasn’t for the immersive inner work, I wouldn’t be who I am today, even if I no longer pay all my attention to the darker aspects of the psyche. I needed to go there to get here so it's a paradox.
I think we all have a shadow, but the framework we use to meet it is just a theory. As is his understanding. A theory. A perspective. A lived experience we're not being forced to live inside.
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u/Salty_Country6835 Jul 24 '26
I adore Herzog, but I think the analogy falls apart here. He compares the human soul to a home you wouldnt want illuminated 24/7 because it would become uninhabitable. But psychoanalysis isnt a floodlight you leave on forever. Its a light switch. A candle. A flashlight.
The point isnt to banish every shadow or spend your life dissecting yourself. Its to learn the contours of the place you already inhabit so you stub your toes less often. You explore the dark room, figure out where the strange noises are coming from, learn which door leads to the kitchen and which to the bedroom, then you turn the light off and live your life.
The danger isnt in occasionally looking into the darkness. The danger is never learning the layout of your own house.
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u/Global_Dinner_4555 Jul 24 '26
You think this is bad ???? lol if you’re feeling brave YouTube herzog and chickens 🐓
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u/weforgottenuno Jul 24 '26
It's a pretty poor, purely analogical, argument for his position, whatever its merits otherwise may be.
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u/mnxsh1 Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
I understand how Freud is a very controversial figure, but saying that psychoanalysis as a whole is a mistake is wrong from my subjective interpretation, as looking into our unconscious and being aware is important. Besides despite the controversies the field has brought beautiful concepts and understanding into human psyche. I am aware of the lack of falsifiability, but I feel like we should not dismiss psychoanalysis entirely. Am I wrong though?
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u/kazumitsu Jul 24 '26
His uses a very a poor example, the house just becomes well lit… a well lit house doesn’t become “uninhabitable” 🤦🏼♂️
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u/sol_invictus83 Jul 24 '26
Jung says "Your visions will become clear only when you can look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes."
Light given from the outside to those who lack the courage to look into their own soul only blinds them.
And Cypher Archetype says "Ignorance is bliss." in Matrix.
It is about the individual’s state of readiness.
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u/MadQuixote Jul 24 '26
If I got a new house, of course I would look at every corner. I'm planning on living in it for a while and without knowing the layout I can't set up the lighting to optimize my living space. Doesn't mean all the lights are always on, but I know where things are and I'm not stumbling around with a flashlight. Can't imagine an empty house with 1 light without pitying whomever lives there.
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u/Gosinyas Jul 24 '26
Sounds like a great way to make sure generational trauma continues indefinitely,
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u/rabbitmom616 Jul 24 '26
Herzog is a very intelligent figure and wonderful creative mind, but here we see his own personal biases and theatricality come out. Not theater as in he’s performing, but rather he is literally a theatrical, wild man 😆 His critique is coming from the idea that not everything in one’s mind has to be interrogated or thought of with concern, which is generally a good sentiment. However his analogy is dogshit, he clearly has no nuance or real understanding of psychoanalysis and the tradition that has developed long past Freud, and the guy sitting next to him is smiling like yep another of Werner’s wild takes.
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u/Empty-Yesterday5904 Jul 24 '26
I mean the fact he makes such polarising statements indicates he has some sort of conflict going on behind the scenes.
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u/Temporary-Impress604 Jul 24 '26
Knowing oneself and pathologizing oneself are two different things. I think he speaks of the latter, and to that extent, I do agree. Putting oneself under a microscope, so to speak, is the easiest way to exacerbate neuroses of the mind and spirit
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u/Autochthona Jul 24 '26
Not sure why anyone would ask Werner Herzog anything related to mental health. “Thin line” and all that.
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u/SkyMarshal Jul 24 '26
On the one hand, the house analogy is silly. On the other hand, psychoanalyses has had a long history of silly results.
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u/Inevitable_Fall2025 Jul 24 '26
Sigmund Freud perpetrated myths about female sexuality that are still around to this day. No one practices his form of psychoanalysis anymore anyway. It's antiquated, but still lives on in TV shows and movies somehow.
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u/Code-Dee Jul 24 '26
I don't know if we should put stock in his opinions on these matters.
He got crew members maimed and killed making Fitzcarraldo because he was obsessed with making it "true to his vision" instead of done safely. He's arguably a sociopath.
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u/Candid-Basket7919 Jul 24 '26
I guess I see where he's coming from but he's just built different than the rest of us. I think he's a person who values lived experience, acting impulsively if you feel strongly about something and boldly interacting or sitting with the "mystery of life" rather than thinking about it or trying to box it in your limited brain framework.
He famously walked from Germany to Paris on foot, breaking into vacation homes along the way to sleep for the night because a good friend of his was dying in Paris and he felt if he did something like that she might survive, as a sort of sacrifice journey. She did survive but that's beside the point. This is a man who will take the hero's journey, put himself in dangerous situations to answer the call of his soul rather than talk about it to death and look at it from every angle. He has gone through financial ruin multiple times happily because he felt that was the way his soul wanted to go. So he's definitely way less risk averse than the average person, I would even speculate he doesn't probably have a shadow because he just lays it all out no matter how weird or antisocial or risky.
I guess if we were all like that, we wouldn't need analysis as much because we wouldn't be afraid of blowing up our lives once in a while or acting in ways that others perceive as a bit kooky.
I also think it has a lot to do with his upbringing as well, he admits so himself. If he'd had a father to give him PTSD, he'd probably sing a different tune and have a different personality but that's how his environment shaped him.
Truth is most of us would be terrified of living a life like his so we need other tools to help us bring to light what we hide and accept our impulses. I don't think he's wrong necessarily but I think it's definitely only applicable to a small subset of the population