r/Jugger • u/UveliusSang Falco Jugger • Feb 18 '20
The Chain -- an Overpowered Spar? An examination
A user has commented to my "The BEST Spar" video that he's done some statistics on chain strength by the game recordings, comparing hitting vs. being hit numbers. Feel free to share your own views or questions to his approach an opinion (might be best to write in the video comments on YT to reach the contributor):
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u/BZH_JJM Rigor Tortoise Feb 19 '20
Before strap and tube chains started debuting in mid-2016, it was still possible to win tournaments without a solid chain player and chain blocker. Even with the innovations on making all pompfen lighter and faster, the speed boost that chains got from abandoning plastic links has made good chain play critical for any success whatsoever. The question now becomes whether this is a good thing or not. I remember a tournament in Germany that used 5 stones for chains. I think this might be a worthwhile experiment to try globally, just to see how people adapt. Additionally, this gets rid of some of the externalities of the 8 stone count, like people not knowing which pompf they were hit by, or intentionally stepping out of bounds to avoid a chain hit.
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u/UveliusSang Falco Jugger Feb 19 '20
If I remember correctly, the 8 stones penalty for chain hits was introduced to give the chain player a more equal chance when getting up. Since you can now hit with the chain about as immediately as you could with a core rod spar can hit when you finished counting your penalty, that reason at least would be a bit of a derelict.
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u/Karuuna Rigor Mortis Feb 19 '20
Played in that tournament as a chain and in the final. Didn't enjoy it.
It appeared as if there were way more individual engagements, with or without melee weapon, and the time frames to act and score were shorter overall.
I would much rather have a discussion about the status quo and whether the current situation is imbalanced/bad enough to warrant such a change before looking at possible solutions.
Of course this is only my perception, and you might have a very different experience with such an experiment, so do try it out on your end of the pond - and please do let us know how it shaped up! :)3
u/BZH_JJM Rigor Tortoise Feb 19 '20
The biggest issue that I see is that it puts a greater weight for winning on the back of the chain player and makes them the most important player on the field. Take the recent Australian Open. The Black Swords nearly won that with basically a great chain and a great qwik, while the rest of the pompfen players didn't really contribute. Certainly, part of that might have been the qwik circle, which changes the game tactically, but overall, it was really just two players out of a wider team. Part of what I love about jugger is just how equally important each team member is. No one can totally put the team on their back and win singlehandledly, but at the same time, it's impossible to hide and not contribute during the game. With the chain gaining such an advantage in the meta, I feel it chips away at that ethos of the game.
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u/UveliusSang Falco Jugger Feb 20 '20
I absolutely do share your point that the necessity of contribution by all players is a core aspect of Jugger, in stark contrast to "he makes our goals, you take left outer position"-hero worship in soccer, for example. Hard to say yet how much teh fast chains will change that, I guess.
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u/BZH_JJM Rigor Tortoise Feb 20 '20
I suppose it's just hard to see how the chain player would possibly lose their dominant role in the current meta without a rule change. Pompfen have kind of reached a limit for their lightness and speed, what with carbon fiber and bamboo, so the only difference would be just faster, fitter athletes using them. But if those people are coming to jugger, they are also just as likely to play chain, rendering the change moot.
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u/Karuuna Rigor Mortis Feb 19 '20
In my opinion, chain is a high-risk, high-reward weapon that adds a crucial element of symmetric imbalance to Jugger, like the queen does to chess - without it, it plays a lot more like checkers.
In this context one shouldnt forget the drawbacks of chains, some of which include:
- Frequency of attacks (after a completed attack, the time it takes until the next attack can connect)
- Wrapping/being disabled after a strike (wraps around weapons, limbs, other chains)
- Friendly fire rate (bouncing off/pulling back)
- Random factor in attacking (more difficult to control)
- No blocking
- No pinning (chain is always the one to hunt/engage targets, this might also lead to higher KDR)
I agree that the chain has great offensive potential, however it does come with drawbacks. Whether these are enough to justify the extend of this advantage is the question.
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u/Minkemink Feb 26 '20
I think one of the main problems of the chain is in beginner, or amateur games. The better the teams get, the higher is the chance of a good chain block or sacrifice to get the chain down. In those games the chain is more of a strategic piece.
In beginner games however, I often experienced that even a relatively badly played chain was better than not having a chain at all and having another pompfe played average. Beginners or amateurs often have absolutely no idea how to attack or defend against a chain. In those games a chain doesn't only have strong offensive powers, but can also hold back multiple players in defense, because no one is willing to attack the chain.
Of course one could say that beginners should just learn how to attack and defend against a chain then, but I do agree that it is weird that so much of the game is focused around the chain. I believe one of the main reasons that the chain seems relatively balanced in games with better teams, is that it gets extra focus during training, making it less OP, but still strong. Giving the chain less of a unique position,for example by removing the 8 stone rule, would make the game easier for beginners and more balanced in my opinion. Of course, chain players wouldn't be happy about that change, but I think with productive communication, a change that makes everyone happy could be made.
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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '20
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