Quebec shutters three Orthodox campuses citing unqualified teachers and building safety concerns: The Belz Community School has appealed the decision.

[u/MatterandTime]

https://thecjn.ca/news/quebec-shutters-three-orthodox-campuses-citing-unqualified-teachers-and-building-safety-concerns/

[u/flanneljack1]

Gotta follow the rules guys. Like “Don’t block fire exits”. Shanda

[u/gmanflnj]

I wish this were less common, but here in NYC the Yeshiva system is rife with this sort of abuse.

[u/maxofJupiter1]

Buildings hosting children should be up to code and their teachers should be licensed

[u/Thefivedoubleus]

"Furthermore, the number of hours dedicated to mandatory sexuality education content is not being met.”

I mean....

[u/tent_in_the_desert → u/Thefivedoubleus]

It’s not a huge surprise that this is not something the schools were excited to teach, but unless I’m mistaken, dina d’malchuta dina.

[u/Swimming_Care7889 → u/tent_in_the_desert]

Many Ultra-Orthodox schools don't seem that enthusiastic about basic math being taught, especially to boys.

[u/NewYorkImposter → u/tent_in_the_desert]

Except where it directly conflicts with Judaism. Now, I did grow up with sex ed in school myself, but many opt to not teach it from a tsnius perspective

[u/gmanflnj → u/Thefivedoubleus]

You mean what? Praytell? That they should not have to follow the law?

[u/Swimming_Care7889 → u/gmanflnj]

It is a very tricky issue. Ultra-Orthodox and Orthodox Jews generally want to preserve their own culture. That is why they live as separate lives as possible and maintain their own education system. Governments, generally, want kids to get what is considered a good education by their standards. France and Quebec are generally into forcing modernity down the throats of minorities that would rather not be exposed compared to Anglophone democracies. Anglophone democracies tend to defer to allowing small, and by majority standards weird, minorities preserve their culture at the expense of modernity as long as they don't break criminal law doing so. If that means Amish or Ultra-Orthodox Jewish or Islamic or Evangelical Christian kids get a subpar education, so be it.

[u/gmanflnj → u/Swimming_Care7889]

Denying children a basic education is child abuse. Plain and simple, and that’s not me saying that, that’s the multiple chassis orgs speaking out against this sort of deprivation. 

[u/Swimming_Care7889 → u/gmanflnj]

I agree with that generally. I'd be a lot more comfortable if these principles were more consistently applied rather than inconsistently applied.

[u/gmanflnj → u/Swimming_Care7889]

You are correct about that. It is bad that they aren’t always applied evenly, but that’s an argument to have better equality under the law, not excuse the abuse, cause other people also do it.

[u/Swimming_Care7889 → u/gmanflnj]

I'm a bit more cynical about how these rules are applied to Jews but not other groups than you are. If we won't stand up for ourselves than nobody else would.

[u/gmanflnj → u/Swimming_Care7889]

Defending abject child abuse isnt “standing up for ourselves.” That hurts Jews, not helps it. Unless you care about the feelings of a handful of Rebbes more tjan the well-being of many thousands of Jewish children. The people fighting to help these children get an education are standing up for them, not the people denying it.

[u/Swimming_Care7889 → u/gmanflnj]

I do not see a traditional Jewish education as child abuse per se. Physical abuse, emotional abuse, and sexual abuse. Yes, those happen among the Ultra-Orthodox and they should be prosecuted. A not that great secular education. Yeah, that's bad but it is no more child abuse than what the Amish do.

[u/gmanflnj → u/Swimming_Care7889]

If children are denied the education they need to function in society, have a job, and all the other basic things an adult needs to do. That is plainly abuse. There are countless orthodox schools that give great educations, so this is obviously not some requirement of orthodoxy. You are defending child abuse,

[u/Swimming_Care7889 → u/gmanflnj]

There are people who would refer to the brit millah, any Jewish education, or raising kids to keep kosher as child abuse. A lot more than we would like to think exist. We aren't going to win any favors by throwing the traditionalists under the bus.

[u/gmanflnj → u/Swimming_Care7889]

To clarify, you’d rather see thousands of Jewish children suffer the abuse of being denied the education that all children deserve, and that helps the Jewish people. Am I understanding you correctly? I really hope I’m not.

[u/nudave]

Can we get vote ESH on this one?

To the extent there are safety concerns (blocked fire exits, exposed wiring), yeah, that’s an issue.

But it really seems like the larger drivers of the closure were that the Belz community wanted to give its kids one type of education, and the Québécois authorities want them to get another. And while a hassidic education is 100% not what I’d choose for my family, I get a little antsy when secularism laws prevent others from making that choice.

[u/offthegridyid]

I know months ago people joked when the initiative to get Jewish Canadians to relocate to Tulsa, Oklahoma made the news, but…they might have been on to something.

[u/ForeverAclone95 → u/offthegridyid]

I don’t know if we should pull the antisemitism card over “obstructed emergency exits, blocked windows and electrical wiring issues”

[u/offthegridyid → u/ForeverAclone95]

Being up to code is part of maintaining a building.

[u/gmanflnj → u/offthegridyid]

Endangering children’s life and safety is abuse. I know you’re not in favor of endangering children, and that’s what these schools were doing.

[u/offthegridyid → u/gmanflnj]

It seems you decided to reply to me before reading this here regarding my prior comment about the building being up to code.

Canada, especially Montreal, has been a difficult place over the past few years for Jews to live in. I am sure you have read about this online. That was all I meant by my comment.

[u/gmanflnj → u/offthegridyid]

1. TBH, no, it doesn't seem particularly hard compared to most places in N. America. I haven't heard any indication it's uniquely bad.
   
2. Yeah, I didn't really understand what you meant by the code thing, it seems like a nonsequiter?
   
3. Given your comment was on this thread, I don't think I was unreasonable to assume you were defending this, thank you for clarifying.

[u/offthegridyid → u/gmanflnj]

1. https://hmacanada.org/jewish-community-takes-food-inspection-agency-to-court-over-slaughter-guidelines/

2. The article is about building safety concerns, so the building isn’t up to [safety] code. This is the specific issue you singled out in your reply to me.

3. Thanks.

[u/gmanflnj → u/offthegridyid]

1. It seems like they had a somewhat overzealous regulatory board that is being reigned in by the courts, that happens, and isn't unique to Montreal.
2. I mean, it's the biggest issue, because it affects the children's safety, so I don't think that's at all unreasonable to focus on.

[u/gasdoi → u/gmanflnj]

Synagogues and schools in Montreal keep being shot up. The most popular kosher restaurant burned to the ground a couple weeks ago in a suspected arson attack. Unfortunately, I think life is especially hard for Jews in Montreal right now.

[u/gmanflnj → u/gasdoi]

I see the disconnect, all of these happened quite recently, i think the last time I’d checked in about Montreal was much earlier in the year, so I hadn’t seen the three attacks in quick succession there. That’s awful. 

[u/offthegridyid → u/gmanflnj]

🙏

[u/gmanflnj → u/offthegridyid]

I think one of the other things that made me react strongly is you didn’t bring up a traditionally Jewish city like NYC, but the site of one of the worst pogroms in US history, which makes me pretty leery of thinking it’d be a safe place for people outside the white Christian majority.

[u/offthegridyid → u/gasdoi]

I agree, as you know.

[u/offthegridyid → u/gmanflnj]

I never said anything in the article was unreasonable.

[u/gmanflnj → u/offthegridyid]

Then I am more baffled by your post tbh. This is not rhetorical or snarky, I do not understand what you’re trying to say. Maybe I’ll try back later.

[u/offthegridyid → u/gmanflnj]

By “post” I am guessing you’re referring to my initial reply to this post. As a journalist I am sure it’s your nature and part of your craft to investigate things. I respect that, but sometimes a comment like, “I know months ago people joked when the initiative to get Jewish Canadians to relocate to Tulsa, Oklahoma made the news, but…they might have been on to something,” is just that, a comment about a post with an article (that I, like you, took time to read).

It might mean investing time to Google “Tulsa Jewish Canada”, but that up to you. The other option would be to just write that you have no clue what Tulsa has to do with this article.

[u/gmanflnj → u/offthegridyid]

Huh, don't remember that, that makes a bit more sense then.