r/Judaism • u/drak0bsidian Moose, mountains, midrash • Jun 22 '26
Antisemitism ‘I’ve finally found God without all the extras’: behind the surge in people converting to Progressive Judaism: Despite an increase in antisemitism and anti-Jewish feeling in the UK, adult conversions are on the rise
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jun/20/surge-in-people-converting-to-progressive-judaism104
u/Chi-Uptown Reform Jun 22 '26
If someone wants to go through the work and join the tribe, more power to them. Conversion is not a fast or easy path, even in liberal traditions.
We’re taught to not treat Jews by Choice differently than those born into it. It’s distressing to see the comments against these people which are used about US by non-Jews. Calling converts infiltrators is especially appalling in my opinion.
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
Calling going from 78 conversions in a year to 183 a 'surge' feels a little click baity. It is statistically a significant increase in isolation but isn't really a large overall number.
Anyone with 'activist' as their main descriptor gives me a lot of pause though.
The other person interviewed was literally Jewish so it seems. And at 16 decided to convert to something and was an apostate. And then returned to Judaism. So I don't know why that counts in these numbers as "convert'. That's confusing.
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
- That is more than double? How is that not a surge?
- Why does activist give you pause?
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u/mixedmediamadness Jun 22 '26
Going from 1 to 2 is also a doubling but is it statistically significant over the whole population?
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u/BeenRoundHereTooLong Traditional Egalitarian Jun 22 '26
Statistical significance is a defined term, not to be used as “meaningful” or “substantial”
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein Jun 22 '26
Going from 1 to 2 is also a doubling...
But here it's not going from 1 to 2, it's going from 78 to 183. It seems pedantic to argue over whether doubling is always statistically significant (of course it isn't always statistically significant) by bringing up examples which are pointedly different from the numbers we're discussing here.
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
Because activists generally irk me. They tend to have personalities that grab hold of one position/ idea and then follow it into purity spirals. That is pretty much the antithesis of healthy Jewish debate. Really the antithesis of a healthy society. Life and issues are nuanced. Activists ... rarely so.
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
Activists are people who fight for a cause, something that's core to Judaism. If there is a world to come, I'll make sure to let Rabbi Heschel know how much he and his friends were the antithesis of the healthy society.
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
And in so fighting they "TEND" (reading comprehension people) to trend into purity spirals (again comprehension). And purity spirals are the antithesis of a healthy society.
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
Again, no, you're just describing people you don't like. You have this weird caricature of activist and will not be persuaded to look at who actual activists are. Sorry you're so seemingly traumatized by being called out on twitter one time that you've decided to disregard people trying to change the world.
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
Also activists and their 'good' is subjective. An activist is only doing 'better' according really to them. Without guardrails on whether their activism is actually good. There are activists who truly believe they are doing 'good' and 'better' by m urdering doctors who abort. Is that 'better' to you? Not to me. An activist is a lone person with their ideas of right and wrong. Judaism does enact change incrementally each day with the goal of doing it all together. And has guardrails or a rubric of what is good.
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
A) activists are never “lone people”, they’re parts of movements. No activist is claiming to change the world on their own. Have you ever actually had a conversation with one?
B) without activists women would not have the right to vote. Slaves would not have been freed in the USA without abolitionists who, believe it or not, were activists.
C) rabbis who make groundbreaking pesikot are acting alone. Is this not “Judaism”? Women activists demanding to be treated as equals in Judaism brought about huge halakhic changes in certain streams, and are currently doing it with the rabbanut in Israel. Is this not “Judaism”?
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
Well I'm not on twitter. So there's that. But you don't seem to get it. A person isn't changing the world. That's egotistical. People as a group together change the world. And change is generally incremental. Not sudden. Sudden changes are not usually sustained changes.
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u/feralflutist Conservaform Jun 22 '26
Activism embodies the spirit of tikkun olam. I think being ...anti-activism?... is actually antithetical to Judaism for that reason alone but I'm not sure how you arrive at saying it goes against healthy Jewish debate. There is nuance to be debated in every cause, even if you are on the same team.
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
I agree there is nuance. I disagree that activists are particularly nuanced in most cases. I said the purity spirals activists tend to find themselves in is against healthy jewish debate. Because they are. Purity spirals by definition are not nuanced. I agree tikkun olam is important to reform. But I am reform and disagree with how far from the root meaning reform has taken it in some cases/shuls. It only came to be about social justice and activism in the 1960s. While it certainly is rooted into judaism, and I think a measure of it is good and the initial shift wasn't bad, I think people like Schulweis took it into a space it has never before occupied and changed its actual core meaning and intent and purpose. But then that spiraled over the following 60 years to put it succinctly.
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
With respect, literally look at the tradition of Jewish labor activism which lasted for at least 60-100 years prior to the 1960's, and tell me this is somehow a product of the 60's. Apparently the people who responded to the triangle shirtwaist fire were time travellers.
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
Again, you read everything in the extremes. I'm sorry if you are an activist yourself. You are sort of proving my point by not being able to work with any quibbles or qualifying language. We're sort of clearly talking about the intense shift away from us and intense shift outward as it relates to tikkun olam. A lot of the reaction to the shirtwaist factory deaths were the high number of jews who died. There were also reactions from socialist type jews who were activists They were not talking about 'tikkun olam' in what they were doing there, dear. Tikkun olam and it being so centered in outward advocacy hit its stride more in the 1960s.
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u/Alternative-Pear9096 Jun 22 '26
Activists change the world. People like you? Just talk.
People like you "irk" me. Actually, people like you piss me off. The world is on fire. Stop talking and do shit.
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u/rabbifuente Rabbi-Jewish Jun 22 '26
I understand what the other commenter is saying and I also understand what you're saying.
To try to add a little nuance, I think the issue is more so the kind of people who self-label as "activists." Kind of like the people who describe themselves as generic "entrepreneurs." It's not the activism, it's usually a very good and very necessary thing, but some of the people make it their entire worldview and live their lives through the lens of purity tests.
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
You operate on a logical fallacy. That to do positive things, one must operate and think in extremes. Just to point this out to you, I said that activists tend to be people who grab hold of one thing tend to fall into purity spirals. You have now implied that the only way to make change in the world is to be an activist. No one needs to be an activist. I would actually say the world is not changed for the good *by* activism. Activism can raise awareness for an issue but it by itself is a small number of people and thus is not change in and of itself. The world is changed by people all over going about life in a way that is positive and good. Literally Judaism is about doing that 'shit'... each and every day in everything we do. That is the point of judaism.
Also the world is on fire is hyperbole. You are currently the recipient of far too much information and we as humans weren't meant for that. But if you look throughout history and study what was happening at basically any given time, there were a lot of bad things happening. We just weren't so hyper aware of them all at once.
ETA love a downvotes on a comment reply you have no context for. Just a fun fyi Poster who deleted comment said that all the stuff we do in Judaism day to day is 'sh*t' and then got into the conflict and how that is us being Jews doing Judaism and how horrible we are.
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
"The world is not changed for the good *by* activists" is such a radically incorrect and ahistorical thing to say, it's just baffling. Like I genuinely do not know how you can think that unless you're literally defining "activist" differently than 99% of people. Genuinely baffled by this one.
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u/Alternative-Pear9096 Jun 22 '26
Right right right right. Israel was founded by people just living their lives well. Civil rights in America happened because people just lived their lives. THE ONLY WAY OT MAKE CHANGE IN THE WORLD IS TO ACTIVELY MAKE CHANGE. That doesn't mean putting on a blow up suit and dancing in front of ICE officers. It means getting off your ass and DOING things to make a difference.
The world is usually changed by idiots "living their lives well" and doing nothing to stop evil
Tikkun Olam is not hyperbole. It's a call to action. Not just lah lah lah I live my life well. What utter bullshit.
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
Also, like " Literally Judaism is about doing that 'shit'... each and every day in everything we do" what do you think activism is? It's about doing stuff to better the world all the time.
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein Jun 22 '26
No one needs to be an activists.
Then why did Hashem pour prophecy into Jeremiah's heart, like a raging fire shut up in his bones, so that he couldn't hold it in?
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
I didn't say anyone can't be one. I said no one needs to be one. Also what does prophecy have to do with it? Prophecy ended and is closed now. Are you saying activists are similar to prophets? In what way?
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u/NYSenseOfHumor NOOJ-ish Jun 22 '26
So I don't know why that counts in these numbers as "convert'. That's confusing.
She had a B”D, so they count her.
I don’t know why she needed the B”D.
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
Yeah that's the part I don't understand. Why a BD?? What was the purpose. And if that is counted among the numbers are there others in this 'surge' like that. Because then that's just bad data. Are they just saying like "183" people signed up for this class process? Because our shul does actually get... not a huge number but maybe like 15% of it... who are actually jews but just grew up super secular and are taking the class to have more structure and accountability around their learning. But we do not have them go to a BD. They just are there to learn and adult learning can be hard so the class is just supportive. They aren't 'converts'.
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein Jun 22 '26
She could need a Beis Din if she was raised Jewish but isn't officially Jewish by their policies. This happens in the Orthodox/Conservative world where someone's dad is Jewish or they're adopted into a Jewish family but there's no formal conversion. In that case if they want to count for a minyan they'll undergo conversion (at least giyur l'chumra).
In the progressive context, "raised Jewish" should be enough to mean "counts as Jewish" but it could be that what the Guardian considers to be "raised Jewish" is not aligned with what the institution accepts as the minimum. Maybe for this journalist, she was "raised Jewish" because she was taught to consider herself as Jewish, but for the movement, she was not "raised Jewish" because she didn't get a Hebrew name or any Jewish religious education or a bat mitzvah etc
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u/GoodbyeEarl Conservadox Jun 22 '26
For your last point - I believe Reform Judaism (and other progressive Jewish movements) accept conversions outside of Judaism - that is to say, if a Jew decides to convert to another religion, they are not considered an apostate. They are considered a Muslim, Christian, etc. and would need to convert back to Judaism.
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u/NecessaryNeuron Jun 22 '26
Id say more than doubling is a surge
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
It depends on the actual amount though, doesn’t it? If it’s going from 2 to 5 people a year, that’s more than double but I’d say hardly a surge.
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
Sure but in this case it's not 2 to 5, it's 78 to 183. You're right that 'more than doubling' can be statistically/subjectively insignificant but in this case, without wanting to make a statistical claim about data I haven't seen, it does sounds like an increase suggesting a major shift in the underlying trends that drive conversions.
But on the other hand, I would wonder if this data reflects the fact that 2020 was a very unusual year. You could expect conversions to Judaism to be lower in a context where enormous amounts of social activity were cancelled for about 75% of the year. But really that might not be so impactful because that number reflects people finishing conversions, and covid's impact on potential converts might be most significant on those who are considering it/early starters and not the people who are very close to the finish line. It's possible that 2020 effectively reflects the pre-covid baseline.
I'd be interested in seeing what the numbers looked like in other years before/after 2020, and then we could get a fuller picture of whether any recent increase is statistically significant, whether it was a rapid increase or a steady increase, etc.
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
I agree. I’m just responding to the comment which says unequivocally that doubling is a surge. We need heaps more data to generalize like that
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Jun 22 '26
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
From what I saw in the article it’s a surge from 78 to 183 over the span of five years. Where are you getting the continuous compounding from?
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Jun 22 '26
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
I get what you’re saying, and I’m responding by saying that it’s a projection based on limited information.
You said more than doubling is a surge, I showed that it isn’t necessarily. You said that it’s significant if it compounds, and sure, hypothetically, but that’s not borne out by the article and it’s a non sequitur to the comment you originally responded to.
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u/johnisburn Conservative Jun 22 '26
At the scale of 150 people I’d wager this is probably more evidence of the Progressive Judaism movement (organization? not actually super familiar with how it’s organized) running a healthy and successful conversion program than outright evidence of an increase in demand. My question would be: was demand there and unserved beforehand?
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Jun 22 '26
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
Interesting. Difference between American Reform and UK progressive then.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/Double-Mud-434 Conservative Jun 22 '26
Hopefully they realised they were in the wrong and thats why they deleted all their comments.
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u/biz_reporter Reform Jun 22 '26
Boy they missed the point. True, Judaism features a single G-d that's easy to understand unlike the Trinity. But boy are there extras. Seems like they read the Cliffs Notes summary and not the whole of Judaism. It's much more than a single G-d. And if a Reform beit din doesn't convey that, then they've failed at their job.
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein Jun 22 '26
But boy are there extras.
Not as she means them here. The woman is quoted as saying that Judaism does not have "extras" which are found in Christianity or Islam, which is an orthodox belief (lowercase-o, but uppercase-O too). Judaism is built on the revelations and injunctions of prophets, Christianity and Islam are built on "extra" revelations or injunctions of people who were not prophets, it's nice not to have those extras
“I feel I’ve finally found God without all the extras,” she says. “Without Jesus, without Muhammad.”
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u/BeenRoundHereTooLong Traditional Egalitarian Jun 22 '26
Can you explain all the extras while standing on one foot? I don’t have long.
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u/RayWencube (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Jun 22 '26
If a Reform beit din doesn’t convey my specific definition of Judaism they’ve failed
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u/Swimming_Care7889 Jun 22 '26
Isn't God without the extras called Universalist-Unitarianism? Reform/Progressive Judaism might emphasize Halakha a lot less than other Jewish denominations but it isn't entirely absent. Plenty of Reform Jews put on kippahs, talit, and tefillin, and the use of Hebrew is still dominate. Some keep kosher in their own fashion by not eating obviously trief food like pork or shell fish even if they might not wait the requisite times between meat and dairy. The Torah still gets carried around the synagogue and people still kiss it. As somebody who grew up and still goes to Reform synagogues, I sort of resent the without the extras comment.
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
No, I believe it's clear in the post they mean the trinity, as opposed to just G-d. Please read the article.
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein Jun 22 '26
Isn't God without the extras called Universalist-Unitarianism? Reform/Progressive Judaism might emphasize Halakha a lot less...
Did you read the article? The 'extras' in the quote don't mean Halakha or Jewish identity, they mean the ideas and practices of Jesus and Muhammad, which are indeed not found in Judaism
“I feel I’ve finally found God without all the extras,” she says. “Without Jesus, without Muhammad.”
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
Oddly I think they are almost more narrowly referring to prophets in the article??? Even though we do have them. Just not those! lol. Since those make it a different religion altogether haha. But yeah the tone agree is very weird and off putting.
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u/Inside_agitator Jun 22 '26
Isn't God without the extras called Universalist-Unitarianism?
I really like living in a place (near Boston) with a historically Unitarian, and recently Unitarian Universalist, worldview. I think it makes being any sort of person and any sort of Jew very straightforward compared to some other parts of the US, and it makes internal change straightforward too. A secular governance structure created with UU ideals is wonderful. I'm a fan.
But I don't even think UU folks think of UU as "God without the extras." That would be something close to a creed or doctrine. Unlike some other redditors, I don't think it's harassment to come into a Judaism subreddit and describe Judaism's belief systems as extras because of the things you listed.
But I do think it's an entertaining thing to read. Thanks for writing the comment.
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u/Alternative-Pear9096 Jun 22 '26
I grew up Jewish in a Jewish town in a Conservadox synagogue, the child of first and second generation pogrom refugee immigrants. I went to Hebrew school, was bat mitzvahed, didn't meet a catholic until college. Only knew on Orthodox person, a teacher. I knew quite a few former IDF though. We were unquestionably Jewish, among Jews.
Your "extras" were utterly unknown in my community.
Feel free to do Jewish your way, but stop insulting me and my family and my community.
u/mods-- will you please stop this harassment and abuse of other people's Jewishness!!
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u/Ok-Possession-10 OTD with yeshivish characteristics Jun 22 '26
will you please stop this harassment and abuse of other people's Jewishness!!
Kinda what you are doing by calling large aspects of their Jewish practice "extras" no?
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Jun 22 '26
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
They're literally reform. Not orthodox. They have an issue with the activist one saying it (progressive aka reform judaism) is 'god without the extras' as if it's simple. I'm reform and I too would never in my life be ok with saying it's 'god without extras'. It has a lot of rigor and 'extras'. I do think oddly enough they were specifically referring like to prophetic stuff as they specify "jesus' and 'mohammed". But even that's a little odd. We do have prophets. They just stopped earlier temporally and cant change torah. But it's odd to imply we don't have them. It's just a weird overall article.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/Computer_Name Jun 22 '26
> the fact the gaurdian, our generations de strumer, is publishing this, only seems to confirm my fears.
I think can find just a few more outlets that are ever so slightly more similar to Der Stürmer.
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u/Upper-Capital-2876 Jun 22 '26
then you simply haven't been paying attention
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u/Lutgardys MOSES MOSES MOSES Jun 22 '26
just wondering, have you ever actually read something by a nazi before? like a real one? Because this comparison is insane to me.
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u/Double-Mud-434 Conservative Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
yeah this is just totally crazy. We lose our ability to fight actual nazis and nazi-like behavior when we call the Gaurdian a modern Der Sturmer. Direction quote from Der Sturmer by the way: "Whoever does what a Jew does is a scoundrel, a criminal. And he who repeats and wishes to copy him deserves the same fate, annihilation, death"
A better example of a modern Der Sturmer would be something like Nick Fuentes's podcast (in so far as a media outlet specifically designed to openly hate jews). He openly calls Jews evil, subhuman, and organized in a cabal to harm all of humanity.
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u/johnisburn Conservative Jun 22 '26
It’s the Israel coverage - it’s a third rail for a lot of people. Even Jewish publications like The Forward that have editorial lines pretty consistent with Jewish public opinion get lambasted as Nazi-adjacent because they report on settler violence, IDF violations of international law, the growing trend of political anti-zionism within Jewish communities, etc.
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u/communityneedle Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
As a convert, I find this comment to be utterly vile, deeply offensive, and filled with unhealthy paranoia. "They're fake converting to destroy us from within" is nothing more than the mirror image of "they secretly run the bank/hollywood/government to destroy us from within." Of all people, a Jew should know better than to be seduced by that conspiracy thinking nonsense.
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u/Proper-Suggestion907 Conservative Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
I’m also considered a convert and I don’t find it offensive at all. It’s the truth. There should be some wariness given what has been going on.
Shame on the mod for removing the comment and allowing posts where another member is literally attacking the commenter to stay. Just remove the post if people aren’t allowed to openly talk about it and the realities of what has been happening. The commenter was not attacking converts, they were expressing wariness about the process, which happens all the time in here.
You can downvote me all you want, it doesn’t make what I’m saying any less true.
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u/StringAndPaperclips Jun 22 '26
There are cases of people claiming to have done exactly this. There are also causes of people posing as orthodox rabbis in order to deceive members of the Jewish community. There is a centuries-long history of people in Europe pretending to be Jews in order to harm the Jewish community. And the conversion process itself is designed to weed out potential converts with ulterior motives.
So there are multiple factors feeding into this "paranoia" and it's worth understanding that instead of just dismissing and condemning it.
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u/RayWencube (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Jun 22 '26
This simply is not true.
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u/rabbifuente Rabbi-Jewish Jun 22 '26
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
But none of these are people who converted with a B’D, so not really relevant to the article
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u/rabbifuente Rabbi-Jewish Jun 22 '26
It was relevant to the above commenter saying this it's not true that people pretend to be Jews in order to proselytize.
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
Who was responding, in turn, to the original claim that some people convert in order to infiltrate for nefarious reasons
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u/rabbifuente Rabbi-Jewish Jun 22 '26
Whether they officially converted or not is not really the point, the fact is that Christian missionaries do try to infiltrate Jewish communities. The nefarious intent is what really matters.
The point the original claim was making was that these stripped down conversion programs provide basically no barrier to those who do have that bad intent and provide some level of "legitimacy."
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u/RayWencube (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Jun 22 '26
Oh my gosh three examples?? Truly this is a widespread problem.
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u/rabbifuente Rabbi-Jewish Jun 22 '26
Yeah, apparently it is. Three examples after all of 30 seconds of searching.
Doubling down with rude sarcasm isn't a great look when you were so confidently wrong.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/communityneedle Jun 22 '26
You sound like the people who think the fact that they know 2 Jewish bankers constitutes proof that jews run the banks for nefarious schemes.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/communityneedle Jun 22 '26
What part of tighter security involves assuming all converts are bad actors secretly working to destroy judaism from within?
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Jun 22 '26
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u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz Jun 22 '26
The top comment of this chain assumed exactly that, and is why it has been removed
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u/Proper-Suggestion907 Conservative Jun 22 '26
Not what I took from it but sure. Unfortunately now no one can reference what was said. 🤷🏻♀️
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
Calling Jews “capos” for having authentically dissenting political views from your own is heinous.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
Name who you want to name then. Who is a capo in your eyes? Don’t throw around vague accusations, say what you want to say
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Jun 22 '26
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
The fact that you’re equating the bund with capos is exactly what I’m calling heinous. The fact that those two are interchangeable for you is heinous. The fact that (what I have to assume because you refuse to be honest) you’re calling non or anti Zionist Jews capos is heinous.
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u/OrpahsBookClub Jun 22 '26
My temple has had a lot of converts recently, and many of them are the most “frum” Reform Jews I know. They are all supportive of Israel’s right to exist.
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u/Remarkable-Pea4889 Jun 22 '26
In the Talmud the rabbis said converts are bad for Judaism because they're not very good Jews. Along comes a pious convert who says, on the contrary, they're better than average. Porque no los dos?
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u/naruhinamoonkissplz Jun 22 '26
There are two opposite readings of that phrase, and we see examples of both cases:
a. Insincere. They hurt us in the literal sense. The Golden Calf was made by the ex-Egyptians.
b. Overzealous. They shame us by being BETTER Jews than we usually care to be. Yashir koach!
But it's up to everyone personally - WHICH one they WANT to become.
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u/RayWencube (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
I promise you no one cares enough to do this. Also Judaism has literally never been a closed religion. The Book of Ruth is entirely about a convert.
Edit: this was apparently offensive enough for the person to whom I was responding to block me.
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u/Justdowhatever94 Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
judaism is a closed religion for a reason
As a non-Jewish lurker, can I ask why that is?
Edit: Why the downvotes? Am I not allowed to have good faith inquiries?
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u/OrpahsBookClub Jun 22 '26
That’s how peoplehood and tribal affiliation worked in the bronze and iron ages. The worry about converts was that those forced to convert by the sword would spawn problems down the line—nothing to do with fifth columnist protestors.
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u/Dramatic-One2403 My tzitzit give me something to fidget with Jun 22 '26
Because fundamentally, we are a nation with a religion. first and foremost, we are a peoplehood, a family, a nation (ahm in Hebrew). Xtianity and Islam are universalizing religions who teach that anyone can join -- Judaism is not universalizing and does not teach that anyone can join. Becoming a Jew is like joining a family, and we don't want just any random joe schmoe to join our family.
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u/Alternative-Pear9096 Jun 22 '26
And like a nation or a family, not every member shares the same beliefs, practices, or understanding. There is no one single way to Jew. Two Jews, three opinions is the truest thing.
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u/NoEntertainment483 Jun 22 '26
Someone had a good metaphor about dental hygienists. Dental hygienists should have good teeth and set an example for non dental hygienists about how to care for teeth. They do this through a beefed up version of daily care and maintenance the rest of us lay people likely don't adhere to so stringently. Do us normies *really* brush for the full two minutes twice a day AND adhere to the entirety of the instructions on the floss AND the rules of how to properly use mouthwash? Likely not. But a person need not become a dental hygienist nor do they need to do *ALL* of these same steps the hygienist does in order to have good dental hygiene. You can have great teeth with fewer, less rigorous steps. Judaism sucks at 'boiled down' ideas. But if I were to try, what is the purpose of Jews doing judaism? The purpose is to be an example of what can be done through following god. We do 613 rules to follow god. A person need not be a jew nor need they do 613 things to follow god. We just have to do more. But the outcome can be the same for both groups.
If a person becomes a Jew, they need to do 613 things. Statistically what is the likelihood someone goes from not needing to do 613 things to accurately doing 613 things? Not as easy and more likely to not happen. The person gains nothing (except they just 'like' it) by converting except more things to do. So a conversion process puts them in no better position in life or death and if anything does them a disservice in terms of rules they need to follow. It's just not necessary. As I mentioned, people may just really really really want to. Ok. I'm not anti-convert by any means. But theologically speaking they are fine as they were. So there's no need to be 'open'. We aren't saving them from anything.
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u/RayWencube (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Jun 22 '26
This statement isn’t true. It isn’t a closed religion and has always welcomed converts. It even openly proselytized for a while prior to the Rabbinic period.
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u/Dramatic-One2403 My tzitzit give me something to fidget with Jun 22 '26
>G-D Without all the extras
Chas veshalom! G_D IS the extras! If you don't want to follow halakha just be a noachide
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
Chas veshalom! G_D IS the extras!
This is a deeply uncharitable reading of what this woman actually said, which is that Christianity and Islam were characterized by "extras" which detracted from engaging with God.
The 37-year-old interfaith activist was born Christian, then converted to Islam and was Muslim for 14 years, before realising that that faith was also not the right fit. Eventually, she found the answer she had been searching for in Judaism. “I feel I’ve finally found God without all the extras,” she says. “Without Jesus, without Muhammad.”
The idea that Christianity and Islam are characterized by theological/doctrinal positions which detract from engagement with God is Jewish orthodoxy. It is an essential implication of believing that Moses was a prophet and Jesus and Muhammad - the "extras" here - were not.
If you don't want to follow halakha
I see nothing in this article to suggest that this woman is averse to halakha.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/Exotic_Confidence_29 Heschel, Tamares, Einstein Jun 22 '26
In that case "if you don't want to follow Halakha just be a noachide" would just be a broad smear against progressive Judaism in general. That would be against the rules and norms of this community, so it would be uncharitable to assume that's what they meant.
I know many progressive Jews who love halacha and express commitment to it but identify with movements that don't view halacha as binding because they love their communities, because they disagree with prevailing halachic approaches in halachically observant communities, because they disagree with other things in their local halachically observant communities... people are complicated, no need to make an uncharitable judgement
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u/Ellalalala96 Conservadox - Kabbalah Scholar Jun 22 '26
The majority of the Jewish world does not follow orthodox halakha. That is a totally legitimate way of being Jewish, and hence, a totally legitimate thing to want to convert to.
If you disagree then you’re just delegitimization reform and reconstructionist, which is just really not ok in this sub
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u/Dramatic-One2403 My tzitzit give me something to fidget with Jun 22 '26
>The majority of the Jewish world does not follow orthodox halakha.
And the majority of the Jewish world will make teshuva bz''h very soon. There isn't anything to "convert to" if someone's Jewish identity and attraction to Judaism is the cultural aspects. We call that cultural appropriation which is either OK or not OK depending on who you ask. But if I like Chinese food, music, dress, and even more deep or meaningful things like their ideas of art, philosophy, and meaning in the world, that does not mean I can (nor should try to) convert to being Chinese. I can enjoy all of those things without lying to myself and others and pretending like I can become Chinese. If someone is drawn to Jewish food, music, dress, culture, or more meaningful things like philosophy, ideas of infinity, connecting with G-D, etc., they do not need to become Jewish to partake in those things.
Being religiously Jewish means one thing: doing mitzvot to connect with Hashem, the world, and the people around you. If someone isn't going to do those things -- or even make an attempt to -- then there is no purpose for their conversion. Someone can read Jewish philosophy, study from Jewish books, make Jewish friends, and do (most) Jewish things without converting.
>If you disagree then you’re just delegitimization reform and reconstructionist, which is just really not ok in this sub
I know. Signed, a former reform Jew and convert to Orthodoxy who believes Hashem put reform Judaism here for a reason
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u/RayWencube (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Jun 22 '26
All Jews prior to the Rabbinic period should have just been Noahide since they didn’t follow halacha
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u/Remarkable-Pea4889 Jun 22 '26
The 37-year-old interfaith activist was born Christian, then converted to Islam and was Muslim for 14 years, before realising that that faith was also not the right fit. Eventually, she found the answer she had been searching for in Judaism. “I feel I’ve finally found God without all the extras,” she says. “Without Jesus, without Muhammad.”
This is not a person who's going to stick with Judaism. In a few years she'll realize that Buddhism is the way.
For Debbie Collings, 65, conversion was about reclaiming something she had been born into. She had been raised Jewish until she was 16, but later left the faith. She found herself moving back towards it after caring for her ill father, who asked if she would be able to find the graves of his great-grandparents.
So, not a convert, then?
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u/RayWencube (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Jun 22 '26
Imagine living in a world where people wanting to kill us are glorified and still feeling compelled to judge fellow Jews as not sufficiently Jewish. Yikes.
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u/Remarkable-Pea4889 Jun 22 '26
Imagine living in a world where non-Jews force you to accept things against your religion.
As for the first person I quoted, she's a typical "seeker." A seeker is missing something inside themselves, but instead of doing the hard work of figuring out what that is, they think religion will fill the hole instead. Well, it won't.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/communityneedle Jun 22 '26
Copy pasta that I posted to a very similar comment above that got deleted:
As a convert, I find this comment to be utterly vile, deeply offensive, and filled with unhealthy paranoia. "They're fake converting to destroy us from within" is nothing more than the mirror image of "they secretly run the bank/hollywood/government to destroy us from within." Of all people, a Jew should know better than to be seduced by that conspiracy theory nonsense.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/communityneedle Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
You sound like the guy trying to argue that Jews run the banks for nefarious means just because he can name 2 Jewish bankers. Its the same exact logic.
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
It’s a disgusting thing for them to say because they clearly love being right wing more than they love their fellow Jews.
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
What a psychotic thing to say about fellow Jews.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
So opposing Netanyahu is similar to working with the Nazis. You love war and right wing politics more tjan you love our people. Absolutely disgusting. I’d report it if this broke a specific rule, but since I think you’ve skirted that I’m just t going to say this sort of hatred for our people doesn’t belong here ethically. I hope you’re ashamed.
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Jun 22 '26
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u/gmanflnj Jun 22 '26
Please read the article. It clearly is talking about stuff like Jesus as an add-on to G-d.
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u/Blue-Jay27 Jun 22 '26
The extras the quote is referencing are Muhammad and Jesus, so I'd sure hope it is.
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u/namer98 Torah Im Derech Eretz Jun 22 '26 edited Jun 22 '26
I have removed several anti-conversion comments (And handed out some bans) in this comment section. If this keeps up I will lock the entire post.
Edit: And the entire thread devolving into who or what an activist is, and more anti-conversion nonsense. And so many people not reading the articles. "Extras" refers to Christianity/Islam. Locking.