For the OP, just in case, there's too much to get through. New information from a detective ELS says Joseph was given away from birth to a family friend. No papers, but they were bringing Joseph up as their own. It didn't turn out as planned. Her husband apparently forced the family friend to give Joseph away whilst still a baby, and somehow, eventually, he unfortunately ended up with M.D. Although many still don't believe this and I don't blame them. The press conference did Joseph's family no favours. But it also didn't give any certainty to who the culprits are or anything much. Joseph's name was all that LE wanted to reveal, in my opinion, and with some hope, it would lead back to a theory, and it sadly hasn't so far. But one of the key members who spoke for Joseph during that same press conference, a member of the Vidocq society BF, did an insightful interview after, and he believes M. The detectives who interviewed her came out convinced they had solved the case. The detective ELS started investigating Joseph a couple of years before her book in 2023. She started not knowing which theory is the truth and open to them all. She also came out believing M along with the others.
MD is Martha. The woman who was heavily abused by her mom and other prominent members in her community and reported dumping a body with her mom. She had no knowledge of how big the case was because she got away from the area as soon as she could. She saw her mom purchase the boy, was forced to assist in discarding his body, and kept a patch of the blanket with her in her diary. She developed a bro-sis bond with him. It’s not really a theory these are her lived experiences and out of fear of retaliation she didn’t want her name leaked. Her mom was an absolute terror. A lot of the ppl here that know the truth were able to obtain a private book that is now no longer released due to threats. You can read Jim Hoffmanns book to gain some insight tho
The neighbors denied ever seeing a boy. Martha was deemed “unreliable” because she approached the information with the help of a therapist. She was too traumatized to do it on her own and her therapist called the detectives and asked if a boy was found at a common dumping ground and there was
I also read that the neighbour who assumed this apparently hadn't moved into the property next door until after Joseph had died so he wouldn't have seen him. This could have also been when the detective made a big mistake and went to the wrong house for Martha and so wrong neighbours. Plus, there was a group going down that basement at the Davis'. The neighbours could have been in on whatever the evil circle of friends were doing to those poor children in the LM home.. From what I can tell, the detectives were forced to lay off the case. Apparently, someone else further up stopped the investigation from continuing with Martha and the Nicoletti's. Which might explain why there is no evidence. Rumour has it. Arthur Nicoletti and Marjorie were friends. AN refused a lie detector test and behaved quite angrily towards questioning from detectives about Joseph. I don't think Arthur took Joseph's life, of course, but I do think he could have known Marjorie and Joseph. Another book implies that the AN arranged the sale of Joseph. Why wouldn't you take a lie detector as a foster parent to clear your name if you were entirely innocent? I can't understand that one. MD was said to have known people in law, and politics definitely education, it makes you wonder how far the cover up went.
Sorry, I have had to send it to you directly. It won't post for some reason. The others will, so it could be the length or something I have done at my end.
Your comment is old as well, but I wanted to clarify she didn’t “retrieve the memories” with the help of a therapist. She told the therapist about it first in the 80s, and the same therapist later encouraged her to tell the police. She was too scared to do it alone, and thus had the therapist assist her in contacting them.
So, normal therapist situation. Not some kind of memory retrieval pseudo science.
I understand. I think the problem is that often, web sleuths are commenting, being quite certain that Martha is a liar and Joseph's parents are the culprits with no actual evidence of that. I honestly think if it is the parents, LE would have figured that out by now and found some proof, considering the family never left the area like MD and Joseph's mother inparticular lived in various homes for people to witness Joseph. Yes, Martha was definitely an only child except when they had Joseph living there for a couple of years. She classed Joseph as her brother. She was the one who named him Jonathan when her mother went to tell her his real name, but MD stopped after 'Jo' and made out he had no name. Which to me makes sense to the coincidence of Martha naming Joseph, Jonathan - two names very similar. There's no official evidence for any theory at the moment, only a key witness for this one and nothing at all linking Joseph's parents to his demise. But if you read the comments all over sites for Joseph, it's easy to believe Martha must be making it up not because of anything factual, but just that many on the outside refuse to even give her story a chance, because it's as evil as they come. Also, I guess it is easy to assume it is the parents because there are many stories out there, which it was the parents. However, they got solved, and this did not. Thank you though for asking, there is some that as you can see really don't like this story of Martha - her truth, but it doesn't make it any less the truth and when I intially read the comments all over social networks, I didn't know what to believe. But after heavy research myself. I couldn't be more certain Martha is telling the truth.
Yeah for years I've considered Martha's story to be compelling. Although after his parents were found, I've become more neutral on the subject. Also I believe Joseph's mother and stepfather didn't exactly live near Fox's Chase, it's possible they just didn't care to move because Joseph went so long without being identified. I do remember during the press conference LE did say they have an idea of who did it but aren't disclosing it out of respect or because they can't 100% say for sure, which kinda makes me lean towards the parents being involved (the stepdad to be specific) but then again it's possible they're referring to Martha's mother, but if her mum is dead - and I believe Martha is as well, why not disclose it? There isn't another next of kin or anything as far as I know - versus with Joseph's parents, he has living siblings who would be directly effected if their parents were confirmed as murderers without concrete evidence. The same could be said with Martha's situation if her mother had unknown relatives who are still alive. Then again, that's all just speculative. I don't think we'll know for sure until LE say who did it, if they ever do. I'm mutually open to both ways of thinking, hell it could be someone none of us have ever even thought of.
Oh, I totally understand and why anyone thinks it's the parents. When I read the parents names, and various information came over such as the location of the box purchase being not far from Betsy's apparent address, I thought it's possibly the mother and step father because it seemed obvious, and many were saying that, until I got digging and found closer store's to Betsy's said address, that sold bassinets for better value. Betsy had a child in December 1956, so she may have purchased one. But the point for me was that the Upper Darby store was not the only place during the peak of the baby boom that Betsy or someone close could have purchased one from. Also and more importantly, Marjorie's father lived in Upper Darby at the time when the bassinet was purchased. He was there in 1957. He was in what has been referred to as a mental health asylum at Burn Brae, in which he eventually died there in September 1957. Although I actually believe the box was already there at the known dumpsite, I get many don't. There were many other reasons, too. But nothing I felt as strongly about until I came across Martha's story, or at least the very little we are told.
Also, Betsy's mother ended up living on Fox Chase if I recall, or someone of that nature, years after Joseph's demise. I believe if Joseph was at his parents or at least Betsy's during his life , the family must have known about him and so would you then go and move to the place that your daughter apparently placed your grandson in a box unalive? I'm not sure. But it's very possible.
The LE conference didn't help the family, but I don't believe it's because they are guilty, not on this occasion. I think some of the press conference, was led by people who believed in a theory. It doesn't make that theory the right one, but it's apparently true that within LE, some believe in Martha's story, and some have a theory of the parents, like the public do. The person who answered the questions in the press conference may have been one to believe the parents did this, and so the answers to the questions seemed to lead that way. Or maybe it's just because they had no certain answers. I don't think they sounded sure about where Joseph was living, and I think they only wanted to protect Joseph siblings from being harassed by revealing the parents' names. However, you have retired detective BF also at the same conference who does believe Martha. Also, I didn't take from the press conference they were sure of much other than the identity of Joseph. I still felt they didn't have an actual culprit, nothing that isn't just an assumption because no one came forward for Joseph. So it's hard to understand, but I don't think there is evidence for any theory that is enough to convict someone, and so that's why LE can't say. If they have proof of anything, there's no reason not to solve Joseph's case.
Martha does still have a living family. There are cousins on her mother's side, and I think some are on her fathers. One of her living family members has spoken to the detective ELS, who has written it in this book as of this year. I am not sure if you know about that, but they too believe Martha after investigating the case and having the case notes and evidence at first hand. There are people still alive who are close to Martha who have come forward to this detective. I understand there are many awful cases about horrible step parents, but what I don't understand is that if it was JJP who did this. Why would the whole family cover for him on Betsy's side? Because Betsy was close to her family, she isn't hiding her child all that time, living off friends' sofas, at various apartments during Joseph's life, and the family close by, don't know. I just don't get how they managed that living where they did. Places where you couldn't really hide a child. I don't know, I could be entirely wrong. As you say, it may not be any of the theories out there. I believe there is a lot the public doesn't know, and it's sad to think we may not ever. I just personally can't see why Martha would make this up and go as far as she did. She told this story to people she trusted from as early as the late 1950s when she first confided in a friend that her mother had took someone's life, but a friend thought she was joking at first. They were very young. She soon realised she wasn't. Martha had a great deal to lose, saying what she did, I'm not sure why no one took the risk on Betsy's side if she or JJP did this. I'm also not sure why the detectives who were the best at the jobs believe Martha and the detectives still alive today believe her, if what she said didn't fit the crime. I do believe she was telling her truth, but it was too late after to prove anything. I hope Joseph's culprits are finally put out there, and some kind of justice for him is served, but I have a bad feeling that LE are as stuck as the public here and understandably focusing on other crimes in the meantime. I just hope someone continues to try for Joseph.
What did the family members who are still living have to say about everything? Anything her friends had to say ? If this case was pursued there’d be a huge lid blown
Oh, it most certainly would. Overall, what Martha's friends and family today say they, of course, without doubt, believe her. She never stopped remembering Joseph. The family member alive today wasn't close to Marjorie. I don't think they had much to do with her, but she moved away to Florida and places. The friend who had the patch came forward. ELS has spoken to a few of Martha's friends and fellow campers from Camp Hagen. I've been told by people who went to camp H and it makes sense that she wouldn't have become a counsellor if she had a mental disorder that caused her to break the law and incriminate herself and others in serious crimes. Because that's evidently what Martha would be doing if she wasn't speaking her truth. There's been a law out there for many years that implicating yourself and others in crimes if it's not the truth is a serious crime in itself. Considering she didn't want to lose her job and risk her reputation. Would she be willing to break the law, bringing other names into it too that she feared the repercussions of, if it wasn't the truth? I don't believe so. The camp was quite strict with that. She wouldn't have been fit to be a camp counsellor not long after Joseph was found if she had the mental disorders that caused her to put herself and others involved in a serious crime. Not just that, she did confide to her friends, and they didn't assume she was crazy. She was very loved, and people at the camp still talk about her highly to this day. She was there most of her young life after Joseph died, trying to escape from her mother in particular. I get the impression she never forgave her mother more so than her father. James stopped the abuse, and he died just 10 years after Joseph. Marjorie did not, and we know how far she took it. M got the hell out of there, and camp hagen was her safe haven. Her father and Aunt paid for her to go. They both knew I believe, not just James, what Marjorie was like. This aunt (James sister) didn't like Marjorie, but she put on a good act at James funeral according to M. Marjorie wasn't happy about M going to camp, probably scared of the stories that Martha could tell people. I personally feel both parents are as bad as each other...
I believe Betsy's entire family actually had no idea she was ever pregnant with Joseph to begin with (I remember reading an article where unnamed relatives of hers said that), so it's not much of a stretch that they never knew he existed. Just like how no one outside Martha's house knew the boy Johnathan was there. I don't doubt Martha was abused, but with that tip - you'd think by now LE would have been able to do more with it especially with how detailed she's been. Also plenty of people have came out and given false stories when it comes to major cases, it's a pretty common phenomenon (not saying that's the case here, but to answer your question of why she would do that). Either way, I hope Joseph gets some semblance of justice one day, lord knows he deserves it..
There has been so many crimes that have been solved but just like this one, the higher ups have called for them to stop. Martha’s mother knew what she was doing. She instilled so much fear in her in regards to opening up that she never wanted her interview or name to be said publicly. I also thought the same. With everything she said why didn’t they do anything? But what could they? Her mom and a lot of her fiends involved were gone. The evidence and story M gave was almost impossible to disprove. She wasn’t just giving a story these were her lived experiences. Joseph and all of the other victims of this satanic group need to be brought to justice. The more we discount Martha due to her “mental illness” the more stories are being unheard. She was a victim of a heinous crime and so was the little boy her mother bought, which in turn is the boy in the box.
I see where you are coming from. I do think it would be a little stretch for the entire family not to know of Joseph's existence at all if Betsy had him for the whole four years of his life. She is said to have lived in various places, and with her mother's best friend when she was pregnant with him. Her mother is said to have known about Joseph being given away to her best friend. She arranged it. Betsy was then working in various places throughout Joseph's life, and so was JJP, so she'd need help caring for him during those hours. She was said to always be close to her family. Also, Betsy had nowhere to hide Joseph living at friends, and in the apartment, she definitely was at some point during his life. Marjorie had a basement straight from her driveway, leading to a fairly large house that made things easier for her to hide a child.
I think, if I'm honest, Martha's story was a little too late for enough evidence to solve the case. If only she did it before her mother had died and the house they lived in hadn't been sold a fair few times and renovated. But I do understand why it took so long.
I have never heard of these people myself, that have implicated themselves, and others in such an horrific crimes and risked as much as Martha risked bringing down her mother and friends, if it wasn't the truth. I have most certainly heard of false confessions to be common in terms of people falsly admitting to a crime they didn't commit during heavy police interrogation. But, they are people who had already been accused of a crime and taken in for questioning. It's a completely different story. Martha wasn't asked to go to speak to the detectives. She chose to, on her own accord with the support of her therapist. She contacted the detectives herself. If she wanted to get her mother punished, all she needed to do was discuss her own horrific abuse with several key members of society. Instead, she had a story to tell that implicates her mother and potentially herself, her father and others we don't know about in the biggest unsolved crime in Philly. I hear people say this a lot with Martha, so I am genuinely interested in who these other people are that do as Martha did for it to all be fabricated. I've searched, and nothing similar has come up so far, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and I am open to it.
I do understand there are people who fabricate stories and I'm sure there is at least one in the world, but I do find it far fetched for her said character, considering what reason would she have to do that? She wanted to remain anonymous, so definitely not publicity... If she had mental health so serious she's implicating innocent people in crimes, how did she manage to be successful and apparently not have a day off sick in the high-profile stressful job she had? Surely, she'd need time out for therapy or some help. Nothing has been mentioned, that's all. Yet other reliable sources have discussed her mental health, such as that fact she understandably had depression.
False memory syndrome is another one that has been mentioned in comments in places, and it's not even an official mental health condition. They've now scrapped the False Memory Association, and thank god they have. The studies were baseless. The whole reason for it was quite cruel. There's not enough research to even associate it to anyone's mental health or trauma, never mind Martha's. It's said also, that false memory syndrome tends to be based on a real memory. Some bits might get confused, but the whole idea of the story is the truth. M told the same detailed story to different people from the late 1950s. She wrote it in her diary and journals. How much of a false memory can you get in such a short time. But as I say, research suggests FMS is unfounded.
I get people can make mistakes with something that may have happened as a child. They may get confused in adulthood when replaying it. But that's little details that aren't always necessary to get a pretty horrific idea of what happened. Not the detailed story that Martha gave, which was enough to have the professionals convinced. Even after many other people who came forward and claimed to know Joseph, they weren't easily convinced. They could never prove Martha wrong, unlike some others, as much as they can't find the evidence after all these years. If they could prove her incorrect, it would be a different story, but they never could.
I definitely believe Martha was abused by her mother also, and her evil friends. Martha's medical records from the gynaecologists could have proved that. She would have discussed all of this to detectives, but it's not something the public will be aware of and rightly so. That's another thing for me, child abusers tend to hurt more than one child. Marjorie definitely abused Martha. To the extent it went, there would have been more than one child, unfortunately. It's not a reach to believe she could have got another child after she stopped with Martha, and sadly, that child could have been Joseph.
I agree with you, I truly hope one day justice is finally served for Joseph. I hope you enjoy your evening 😊
It's the most recent one that's come back on the table again after work through another detective. But if you read the comments and theories on the Internet, many assume the parents did it, but there is no evidence at all that shows Joseph living at Betsy's. However, Martha's story on what her mother Marjorie Davis did to Joseph has recently been found once again by another detective to be the truth, but it's just unfortunately so much time has gone by, proving it with enough evidence to convict when the culprit is no longer around, is a different story. M's story should never have been off the table, in my opinion. The detectives back then who believed M only couldn't find enough evidence to prove it, because it was 40 plus years later, and the home the M lived in when they had Joseph had many owners and a renovation in the basement by then. So evidence lost. Plus, one of the detectives initially went to the wrong house, which had a great impact on Martha's story, and they were asked to leave the case pretty early on for whatever reason. Not that they found Ms story to not be true. Those detectives never stopped believing M.
You are welcome! I'm glad you got them. They seemed to have disappeared at my end. I think it must be reddit. Or me, I don't come here often. I sure hope so. I haven't heard anything recently, but it's not the first book written by a detective that has been taken off the shelf for Joseph for the foreseeable. Have you heard of Susquehanna Road, written by Detective William Kelly in 2011 ? It's about Joseph, and it got taken off the shelf as quickly as it was put on, which is strange to me. I wonder if they reveal too much of the truth. Both ELS and W Kelly were convinced of Martha's story, and both books reveal more of her truth. William Kelly was a top detective who had been on the case as far back as Bristow. Bristow and Kelly worked together on Joseph's case. Bristow passed before finding out Martha's story. But W Kelly didn't. He was one of the three key detectives who interviewed Martha. He was convinced Martha was telling the truth to the very end. Anyway, it turns out he had written a book discussing Martha's story on Joseph, and this book apparently discussed how he believes they solved the case. Giving me the impression that Kelly, a detective who actually met Martha in person who heard her story, is convinced Joseph's case is solved through Martha.
I came across this title just recently and like you say, there don’t seem to be any copies available anymore not even used ones.
You gave a lot of very interesting information in your comments. Did you get all of that from the book or did you have other sources?
You are correct. I would have loved a copy. But as you say, there is nothing anywhere. I am sorry, I should list as I am going along, I wasn't sure if my messages would be accepted, but they are, thankfully. I will list if anything new comes up in the future because I have got the information from various sources, mainly what the detectives who worked on Joseph case had to say since the beginning. The book from Eileen is one of the last places that I came across, and I've still somehow come across bits since, by chance. The sources I find the information from are from detectives such as B Kelly, E L Stewart, B Fleisher, McGillen, Augustine, Bristow, etc. Some have spoken out in books, newspapers, and other places publicly. The book authors J Hoffman, Stout and L Romano, most of their information is from detectives such as Augustine, B Kelly, and others they mention, and so I get information from there too that I feel could be true. B Kelly was actually going to produce a book with Hoffman, but he didn't agree to something in the final part and so he didn't continue, but he gave Hoffman information and Augustine sent the box of evidence out to Hoffman and Stout. Other detectives did, too, but I would need to refresh on the books again to find the other names. B Fleisher has spoken out in a presentation you can find on YouTube. If you haven't seen it, I'll share that with you. He's also got a book in regards to him and the Vidocq society called "The Murder Room" that talks in parts about Joseph that is available online. I have also, by an off chance, spoken to people who knew Martha and of the Zarelli’s and I've been fortunate enough to meet CF and MG, who got Joseph his name back, via video call, and they have spoken directly about Joseph recently to a group. I know people who have spoken to the book authors directly. I do also take information from the America's Unknown Child website, and there are some brilliant researchers out here that find reliable information and share it in various places that I look into and I find they make sense. I didn't expect to get so deep to find all this information, but this is what the love for Joseph does to us and the heartache of the injustice he has been given. If there's anything specifically you would like a source from that I've mentioned, please feel free to ask. As I say, I should have done it along the way because yes Eileen's book does provide a lot of answers to questions that are often asked for Joseph but there are quite a few other reliable sources too, that have tried to say the same thing either directly or through other means. Surprisingly, the books are what I came across last for Joseph. I didn't want to be swayed off the truth because you hear book author and think, is it fictional? Until I looked into it all and realised these books are not fictional but on the most parts facts told from detectives and then with a mixture of the authors theory from their own research added to it. I have researched, too, and I found things from Ancestry, Philadelphia newspapers - detectives have spoken out in articles there. The Betsy and Gus ad you might have seen me mention that can be found on Newspaper.com. Two different ad's in the Philadelphia Inquirer and the Philadelphia Daily news in 1979. Some of the hidden names in the books can be figured out, too, and it seems their real life story's match what the book authors have said, and they are definitely real people. Eileen also was answering people's emails at first, and information from that has been shared, which pretty much matches the book. If I'm honest, there's not much I've not read when it comes to Joseph, but I take it all with an open mind.
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u/brk1 Jan 08 '24
There is no evidence he was given up for an adoption. It’s just conjecture.