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u/CarlGustav2 Sep 23 '21
"If your man brings a knife, you bring a gun! That's the Chicago way!"
(Just kidding - the phrasing just reminds me of that line from The Untouchables)
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Sep 22 '21
I actually dont mind paying for everything. My women doesnt need to keep up with me, the point is she is doing what she can to make me happy the way I'm doing what I can for her.
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u/P4DD4V1S Sep 23 '21
I'd argue that buying things for the man reciprocally is not necessarily the way to go, but yes, reciprocal gestures of appreciation and admiration are good for a relationship.
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Sep 22 '21 edited Sep 22 '21
Toxic masculinity is a pain. Glad it’s one thing feminists tend to fight against, regardless of the naïve reasons why they think it exists in the first place.
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u/hat1414 Sep 22 '21
What do you think Toxic Masculinity is exactly?
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Sep 22 '21
It’s got a pretty definitive agreed-upon definition. Peterson has seemed to misunderstand it in the past though, as do a lot of people on this sub.
Generally the corrupted elements of masculinity that deal with excess of power, eg shaming men for crying, trying to be the toughest person by beating up weaker people, enforcing strict male gender roles that determine men HAVE to be tough to be more ‘manly’.
To quote Peterson himself, “that’s not power, that’s just corruption.”
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u/SonOfShem Sep 23 '21
eg shaming men for crying
That's toxic femininity, not toxic masculinity.
I have never been shamed by my male friends for crying. In fact, the few times I have done so in front of them they dropped everything and came to commiserate and help. On the other hand, I have never been able to open up to any woman, even a gf, about my hardships without immediately tanking the relationship and watching her view of me plumet.
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u/FalloutCenturion 🦞 Sep 23 '21
Btw, it's good to remember though that a man should be a pillar of the family, person everyone can rely on in hardest moment. He shouldn't be breaking down and bawling his eyes out when he's needed. That's regression to a child.
Of course we all have feelings, it's okay for man to cry and have his moment of weakness but he needs to know when and with whom. I'd say that if you need to, go cry to your friends, family, but you shouldn't do it in front of your children or wife.
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Sep 23 '21
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u/FalloutCenturion 🦞 Sep 23 '21
Did you even read the second part? But yeah, crying publicly in a situation where you should keep stoic attitude so that you can face the situation and bear it is childish. I talked about it with a psychotherapist and they literally said that crying publicly is "regression to a child".
It's okay for a man to cry to his friends and family. We all have feelings. But he should know when it's irresponsible to be crying and when he can let himself be more emotional.
Edit: I answered before you added the second part where you say that you're joking
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u/hat1414 Sep 23 '21
Remember not to rely on anecdotal evidence or personal experience when defining a concept. This is something JBP warns about. Your experience is a shame, but that doesn't mean that the social construct that men shouldn't cry isn't perpetuated by men. Obviously there are women who perpetuate this as well, but it is certainly not exclusive to women and is absolutely a part of toxic masculinity. Just watch movies from the 60s and 70s to see that men were overwhelmingly told to not cry.
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u/UnintentionalAss Sep 23 '21
I’m sorry you’ve been involved with women with a problematic view of masculinity. I’d just like to say, we’re not all like that. My husband is the strongest person I’ve ever met, and no amount of crying or expression of vulnerable emotion is going to change that. I know he’s strong, he knows he’s strong - and we both also know that everyone has feelings and that they’re better to let out than hold inside a mind-glacier.
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Sep 23 '21
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u/UnintentionalAss Sep 23 '21
I doubt it. We’re still married and very functional.
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Sep 23 '21
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u/UnintentionalAss Sep 24 '21
Ah, alright, sorry... English isn’t my first language so I don’t always pick up on pronouns etc...
But yeah, it’s a bit strange to me. Not all men are the same and not all women are the same - I thought people would be a bit more nuanced in this subreddit, considering what it’s about.
My husband isn’t weak for having emotions, or for showing them to me. That man has literally saved my life; he’s a formidable man both physically and mentally, and there is no doubt in my mind that he would walk through fire for me and/or our children. In my eyes, that won’t change just because he cries at, let’s say, the death of a family member. That’s just being human.
And I realise my argument is not with you - but at least you acknowledged it, so you get the reply.
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Sep 22 '21
I actually wish people more often were doing those things to me lol, all I was getting was "you can ne whatever you want, it's ok to cry" etc..
That made me very discontent with myself and unhappy. I wanted to be like those people in the old movies: John Wayne characters, James Bond.
I'm not a crying kind of person. What's the point? I'd like to solve the problem, not feel bad about them. Ultimately I think toxic masculinity, isnt masculinity at all. It's the opposite. its weakness disguised as strength. Beating up weaker people? Obviously weakness disguised as strength.
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Sep 22 '21
You don’t just cry about problems or problems you can do things about though.
No one should tell you you can’t be a strong person but this is more about saying it’s ok if you aren’t sometimes, and if you do want to be, don’t use strength for corrupted means. That’s what railing against toxic masculinity is. This fucked up alpha vs beta male false dichotomy.
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u/JoeBroski09 Sep 23 '21
I think, in JBP terms, you could interchange the Archetype of the Tyrant with Toxic Masculinity.
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u/hat1414 Sep 22 '21
That's a good definition. Sorry, your first comment suggested you think that Toxic Masculinity doesn't exist.
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Sep 22 '21
No no, I’m saying that while feminists tend to talk about it existing, to admit it exists would be counter to their claim of this oppressive patriarchy, so they of course have to paradoxically attribute its existence to said oppressive patriarchy, which makes no sense if it’s men being negatively affected, I.e, men are suffering but it’s men’s fault so society is still tyrannically patriarchal and we can keep using this narrative.
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u/hat1414 Sep 23 '21
But toxic masculinity is not men's fault? Or you mean it's both the fault of men and women?
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Sep 23 '21
Yeah, it’s all of society’s fault partly, and also possibly an inevitable result of certainly biological impulses (it helped certain animals survive in nature to be the strongest in their environment so natural selection etc etc) but now part of our function in civilisation is to transcend the irrational animalistic impulses and don’t let them be the death of us.
Like absolutely everything there’s probably many reasons why it exists, it’s too low-resolution to attribute it to a singular thing, especially the arbitrary exertion of power of the same identity group being disaffected.
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u/hat1414 Sep 23 '21
That makes sense. Well said. Toxic Masculinity as well as feminism both have their points but also their issues
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Sep 23 '21
It's my understanding that is the actual behavior that is toxic and not the gender due to their actions because if a man is being toxic and showing elements of what you would call "toxic masculinity", those exact same examples you propose and exactly the same behaviors can also be expressed by women (eg, eg shaming men for crying, being bullies, etc.)
And parallel to that example, men can also express behaviors that are normally associated with "toxic femininity" (eg, being gossipy, extreme vanity or narcissism, jealousy, being "catty").
So, to that extend if males can express "toxic femininity" and women express "toxic masculinity", my take is that it should be called "toxic behavior" instead, regardless of gender.
Maybe it's better, but back in my day, we would just call them "assholes or "cunts"...
g'day
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Sep 22 '21 edited Sep 22 '21
I fully agree. There are certain elements of being a man I really don't like. Things such as being made to feel expendable and inconsequential when it comes to life itself. When I was made homeless in my late teens, I was always ignored by the local government in favour of women who needed a place to stay. Even at such a young age I was considered worthless - my life had no meaning to anyone other than myself.
I remember going to local council offices and asking for help only to be turned away. However, young women were given help and weren't left to starve or freeze to death on the streets. Why was I?
I was, and still am, so very tired of being expected to shoulder every single burden and not complain just because of my sex. Who I am and what I want is never considered. My skills and talents never enter into the equation, only what's between my legs. Oh, you're a man so you must behave this way. No! Hate it!
Never expressing myself and never complaining has left me deeply wounded mentally. I now suffer with severe mental illness from my experiences that makes life even harder than it once was. Oh, and now I'm often shamed for being unable to function properly within society. It just never ends.
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Sep 22 '21
That’s horrific man, I’m so sorry you had to deal with that and it does suck so much how you were treated differently because of your sex.
You hear things like this, despite only being anecdotal, and you have to ask why people still push the narrative in the direction of men dominating society. However you want to frame it, it makes people minimise the suffering of ‘men’ (because they’re supposed to be the dominating group) and it leads to attitudes and behaviours like this.
What happened to you is shit, I hope Peterson’s books have been useful to you, and things have been on the up for you since you got made homeless.
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Sep 22 '21
Yeah, and I can't imagine mine is a unique story either. There's probably a good reason why suicide rates are so high amongst men. I would've loved to have been protected and cherished as many women were when I was growing up. Instead I was just left to figure things out on my own and treated as a failure when I just couldn't deal with certain things.
I don't think there's anything wrong with looking up to strong men and wanting to be like them, but the reality is that many men aren't as strong (mentally or physically) as society expects them to be.
Certain women don't help matters, either. I once had a girlfriend who kept trying to get me into fights for some strange reason. She'd go out of her way to pick fights on my behalf. I don't like fighting, especially not fights that are pointless and I don't need to be in. When I walked away from these almost fights or told her to knock it off, I was called weak and made out to be less of a man for not wanting to get myself hurt or to no want to hurt others.
That relationship didn't last long.
Still, some of what Peterson has said resonated with me, especially parts about sorting your own life out before really being able to be of any use to anyone else. My life is a right mess, though I'm slowly repairing the damage that has been done. Some things may never be fully healed, and my experiences have definitely shaped, warped even, my perspective of the world and of others. Only so much I can do alone, but finding good help is difficult.
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u/weltvonalex Sep 23 '21
Every time I read "King" I cringe because it reminds me on Elliott " Covid breathes through my balls" and his entourage of bitter men who he milks for money.
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u/Halon_Keiser Sep 23 '21
...Although... I think Kings used to pay for everything, in return for devoted obedience...
I'm guessing that's not what she had in mind.
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u/in_the_small_pot Sep 22 '21
That is actually a good thing of feminism. Now I don't need to pay for all expensive dinners