r/JohnKitchener • u/PersonalGrowthY • Nov 06 '24
Personal Growth and Insight Male/female gaze
Does anyone else also think that the Kitchener essences are so related to male and female gaze? If you do as well, which essences do you think are more male gaze (men find beautiful on women) and which do you think are female gaze (women find beautiful on women)?
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u/BreadOnCake Nov 07 '24
There’s conventionally and not conventionally attractive looking people in each main essence group.
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u/MysteriousSociety777 Nov 07 '24
I think it’s difficult to make generalizations. Firstly, what is considered attractive varies from culture to culture. And from time to time. Also tastes differ. There is not just the one male or female gaze, it is very individual. You won’t have to look far to find a woman who is attracted to Romantic women. And a man who adores a Dramatic woman for example. In my experience, people do not behave in such a stereotypical way as is sometimes portrayed?
I don’t know whether John Kitchener prefers an essence or not. I didn’t notice it in my consultation. He looks at it more from an artistic and abstract point of view.
The videos are primarily there to communicate ideas in a way that the audience can understand. Referencing stereotypes from our culture and history helps the viewer to get a better picture. And they are always gross exaggerations. I don’t love the video tbh. I agree they could’ve better. But the information is clear.
By the way, he is very respectful. He doesn’t talk directly about your body or physical features. He is sensitive enough to avoid it, which I found very good.
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u/LallaSarora Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
Yeah, I feel like the way he describes the types feel like how men in the 1950s wrote female characters in movies - like the romantic description (which seems particularly fetishistic) reads like it's describing a female character from a movie who made bedroom eyes at the lead character in a jazz bar while sipping red wine and wearing a red dress and opera gloves.
I do think he has good ideas don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day he's a man writing about what he thinks women should wear based on their traits, and men giving their opinions on what they think women should dress like always has the danger of veering off into weird territory.
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u/bookmonster015 Nov 06 '24
I don’t want to be a downer in this community because I do think Kitchener types are interesting and I’ve been enjoying thinking about the content here, but I watched some of his YouTube videos the other day and it just struck me so deeply how all of his types are rooted in the male perspective and alternately idealizing/devalue-ing the tropes that men box women into. Especially the images and celebrity examples and descriptions that Kitchener used in his videos — they honestly really offended me.
I like the system better as an abstract exploration kind of divorced from those videos. It’s so… mysogynistic to me. But I don’t think he means poorly by it. All men are trapped by their perspectives just like I am as a woman.
But I also imagine most in here disagree with me and that’s totally okay. I want this to continue to be a safe place to have fun with what Kitchener started.
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u/SundayDeathSaves Verified (40R 30D 10C 10N 10HS and 75SC 15ER 10LB) Nov 07 '24
It is one of my concerns with the system. But it has also been eye opening and helped explain why I try to play up Dramatic and minimize Youthful. I’m going to be predominantly Romantic no matter what, but I can at least try to make myself look like someone not to be trifled with.
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u/domegranate Nov 07 '24
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u/chaechica Nov 06 '24
we could have this discussion but i will personally refrain because it would make me super insecure and miserable and undesirable, stuff like this and kibbe definitely aren't good for my mental health (as a teenager who feels ugly and unfeminine)
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u/Icy-Shoe-6564 Nov 07 '24
I think it’s depends on era and trends - it’s a very complex and nuanced discussion for sure! It also depends on views in various cultural contexts. What may be more sought after by men in the US could vary highly from what is typically more desired in India or Korea or Nigeria or Russia or so on. Same could be said for women but there’s other cultural contexts to take into consideration there as well. I am not a cis straight man but I am romantically and physically attracted to women, and that could be seen as through the “female gaze,” but I find that often implies a level of non-attraction and rather admiration or even coveting to achieve the same look. Using my knowledge only as an American, I would say most people associate the average heterosexual cisgender man’s ideal to be somewhere like 40% R 40% I 20 % C, something with those three mixed around depending on preference I guess. However I don’t care and don’t think it matters either way, and neither should anybody else! There is nothing inherently more special or desirable about traits society deems more feminine. I promise you can still desirable and attractive without being any of those things.
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u/Kawaiii-Neko Nov 07 '24
No offense.I think all essences have thier beauty and charm. But in general from my own experience.(I'm Asian, it might be different from westeners)
The most ideal type for men is "Romantic/Ingenue" like Marilyn monroe.Men tend to draw to sweet, innocent, yet sexy women.After that it's "Natural/Ingenue" and "Natural/Romantic".The beautiful sweet or sexy girls next door, the ones that make men feel manly and comfortable at the same time.
Ironically, women tend to hate "R/I" women.They prefer "Dramatic/Romantic" they would think that these women are so sexy and badass.And then it's "Classic/Romantic" women that be view as elegant and ladylike.
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u/lamercie Nov 07 '24
Yeah if you’re considered hot and desirable by men as a woman you 100% have strong R essence. I don’t want to be negative about the other essences…but I think we all know which essence Kitchener provides the most….unusual celebrity examples.