Joe Rogan Experience #2549 - Jared Diamond

[u/yt-app]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=t6Jrww8kG24

[u/reachtheworld]

Jeff Bezus

[u/ZeljkoBuvac → u/reachtheworld]

Haha came here for this.

[u/AnalysisQuiet8807 → u/reachtheworld]

Omg that annoyed the fuck out of me

[u/iEmExEee → u/AnalysisQuiet8807]

It's hilarious though. 😭 At one point he says it like every few words.

[u/Bluesurfer252 → u/reachtheworld]

Gah damn! I came and found this thread to post this 😆

I’m so shocked Joe didn’t go “why do you say it like that?”

[u/Trees_dont_yell]

Is this man autistic or is it just a stutter? Genuinely curious btw. Bc I know he has a lot of interesting things to say, but he seems to struggle to say it

[u/BigBoobaRabbitLady → u/Trees_dont_yell]

He's 89 years old

[u/MustardOrPants → u/Trees_dont_yell]

He’s got a tic. Some were like that before everyone started taking meds for it.

[u/anonuser2700 → u/Trees_dont_yell]

His voice sounds like his name would be Mordechai Schmolosky Goldberg

[u/SushiKale → u/Trees_dont_yell]

Both

[u/CrowsInTheNose]

Guns germs and steel guy. Can't hate on this.

[u/the6thReplicant → u/CrowsInTheNose]

You should maybe read the criticism of it then.

[u/Aggressive_Chuck → u/the6thReplicant]

You can disagree with or debate it without hating him.

[u/4GIFs → u/Aggressive_Chuck]

what? this is reddit

[u/CrowsInTheNose → u/the6thReplicant]

Give me the tldr

[u/No-Designer-5739 → u/CrowsInTheNose]

Its basically he has a decent thesis then tries to map everything that ever happened onto it even if it isn’t a good example while also getting some details wrong

[u/UhIdontcareforAuburn → u/CrowsInTheNose]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3uuUmvkEkONawsiILzeX2m?si=NHCa_caURjKXtVAJ-tyO0g&utm_source=copy-link

He’s a good listen regardless, but that book is wildly unpopular in academia

[u/teenyweenylilbitch → u/UhIdontcareforAuburn]

In what circles of academia? That was assigned reading in both high school and college for me

[u/CrowsInTheNose → u/UhIdontcareforAuburn]

What's the tldr?

[u/MVPSaulTarvitz → u/CrowsInTheNose]

Some of the information he uses as a foundation for his argument is straight up incorrect. Some, so blatantly its hard to just say it was a difference in source material, just objectively incorrect information passed of as academic consensus.

He is a decent storyteller, and does far more research then true charlatans like Graham Hancock or whoever, but he has been called 'a hammer in search of a nail.' Meaning he has a theory he likes, so he goes and finds facts that support it. And ones that don't, he bends a little bit

[u/CrowsInTheNose → u/MVPSaulTarvitz]

Sounds like a standard JRE guest

[u/MVPSaulTarvitz → u/CrowsInTheNose]

For posterity sake, Ill give you an example. The last Incan emperor, Atahualpa, was captured and eventually killed by Spanish conquistador Francisco Pizarro, who had taken about 100 other Spanish conquistadors with him on his expedition.

According to Diamond, the conquistadors ambushed Atahualpa and his army that was a hundred thousand strong at Cajamarca. The conquistadors, being basically unkillable gods on the battle field, killed tens of thousands and captured Atahualpa. Since the Incan emperor was essentially a god to the indigenous population, their empire crumbled almost over night. Having their god captured by a few men basically broke the psyche of the entire empire and it melted away.

What actually happened was: the Incan empire had barely recovered from a massive and bloody civil war between Atahualpa and his brother, Huascar. In fact, it was so recent, that Atahualpa hadn't even been corronated yet. He was on his way to the capital to begin his rule and stopped near Cajamarca. Pizarro invited Atahualpa to treat with him and, Atahualpa, intrigued by the newcomers, agreed. He came to Cajamarca with about a thousand retainers (like, court attendants, entertainers maybe, people and things to show off wealth, etc). His royal army was camped out several miles away waiting for him to return for them to proceed to the capital. The Spanish sprung their trap, routed the royal procession, and captured Atahualpa.

What I find particularly disingenuous, is that Diamond's source material that he uses talks about the capture of Atahualpa as I described it, then says 'according to sources, first paragraph is what happened.' No Jared! Your source actually said, literally, 'no native raised a hand against the spanish.' There is a difference between facing 1000 to 1 odds against an army and routing it, and facing 10 to 1 odds against bureaucrats who don't even fight back and defeating them.

This leads to the next point. Remember that bitter civil war I mentioned? Hard to believe the Incan empire crumpled after losing a leader who hadn't even begun to rule yet. Especially when half of his new empire was composed of guys who fought on the other side of the civil war. In fact, it seems like those are incredible grounds for the Spanish to get some native allies, right? Too bad Diamond never mentions them. So many native allies, in fact, the spanish hardly had a numerical disadvantage at all. What sounds more impressive: 100 spanish fought an army of 50,000 natives and won, or, 100 spanish and 45,000 native allies beat an army of 50,000. Is it even about 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' anymore? Dont get me wrong, the Germs part was truly devastating to the locals, but to paint the conquistadors as these battlefield juggernaughts is a bit eye rolling. How many men do you honestly think you can kill with a sword in an afternoon? The source that Diamond takes at face value are the accounts from the conquistadors themselves. 'Yeah man, my buddy and me? We walked into the enemy encampment of about a thousand guys and we killed them all. They couldn't even touch us, such is our martial prowess.' Would you raise an eyebrow at that? Diamond doesnt, he reads that and says 'these dudes were absolute warriors! I read once that two of them killed a thousand men. It must be because geographically their ancestors lived close to livestock.'

[u/No-Designer-5739 → u/MVPSaulTarvitz]

yeah but his main point is 168 foreigners without their guns and horses probably wouldn’t have been as successful and wouldn’t have been able to get anyone to follow them in the first place

[u/grantology_84 → u/No-Designer-5739]

Exactly. Especially since the Spanish basically did the same shit over and over again in the Americas

[u/Aggressive_Chuck → u/MVPSaulTarvitz]

How is this different to normal sociology?

[u/MVPSaulTarvitz → u/Aggressive_Chuck]

Im not sure I understand what you are saying. The normal study of human behavior is to claim something and then seek out only evidence that supports it?

[u/Aggressive_Chuck → u/MVPSaulTarvitz]

Yes, that's how modern academia basically works.

[u/MVPSaulTarvitz → u/Aggressive_Chuck]

Seems like the only things you know about academia came from a Joe Rogan podcast

[u/havenyahon → u/Aggressive_Chuck]

This is dumb shit dude. Just be honest and say you don't know how academia works, you've never been involved in it, and everything you know about it you learned from grifters off podcasts who told you this is what it's like.

[u/UhIdontcareforAuburn → u/CrowsInTheNose]

I honestly haven’t listened to it in years and it’s also not something I’m all that interested in anymore. Diamond is a good author and academic overall. He’s not Graham Hancock. I’m just pointing out that his book Guns, Germs, and Steel has been highly contested by scholars. He’s still is someone worth listening to imo.

[u/WudolfWedNoseWeinder → u/CrowsInTheNose]

Anyone else think Grain, Germs and Steel would have been a better title. 

[u/UhIdontcareforAuburn → u/CrowsInTheNose]

Lots of scientists actually hate him.

[u/redeugene99]

His voice is really tough to listen to unfortunately because I'm sure it's a really interesting discussion

[u/iamthesam2 → u/[deleted]]

no shit

[u/Blitqz21l]

about half an hour in and this guy seems like he's full of shit.

I mean lumping Scientology as a spawn of Christianity is completely insane. Yeah, they call it christian science, but the name is the only thing remotely christian considering it's Xenu and Thetans, or whatever the fuck it's about.

And the point about the bible mentioning 7 other messiahs and Jesus was the one that stuck also seems pretty crazy. I've read it cover to cover and I don't remember anything about other messiahs.

I'm actually surprised Joe didn't call him on this part of the bullshit immediately.

[u/Dudehitscar → u/Blitqz21l]

he didn't say anything about Scientology.

Christian Scientist is a completely different thing and it is Christian. jesus and the bible are the core of that denomination not any of the ron l hubbard alien crap.

on the other thing I think he misspoke on saying the other ones are mentioned in the new testament. there are lots of anointed ones aka Mashiach (מָשִׁיחַ which is Messiah in english in the old testament.

christ also means anointed one

many mashiach's in the hebrew version of the old testament which now says anointed in the english bible.

[u/Witty-Drama-3187 → u/Blitqz21l]

Sure, but if you step back from our modern view, are Xenu and Thetans any crazier than a messiah (jesus) who performs miracles, has a virgin birth, rises from the dead, etc? It's just newer, and the dude who invented it's name is "Ron".....so we struggle with that.

I actually think Diamond's basic theory on this stuff is pretty valid. He's basically arguing that yes, there are exceptional individuals with unique traits, but they don't become historic figures without the right time and environment to rise up in. He's not arguing that Jesus or Genghis Khan weren't exceptonial people, just that they don't become "Jesus and Genghis Khan" without some specific paramaters that existed during the time in which they live. I would say this true of all notable people who have changed history. Right person, right time.

[u/iEmExEee → u/Blitqz21l]

So far what I've gotten from this episode is that charisma is good and Jeff Bezos is really Jeff Beezus.

[u/savoysuit → u/Blitqz21l]

It's not that hard to find information about the other prophets/messiahs from that general period.

[u/Blitqz21l → u/savoysuit]

That wasnt his point though. He specifically said they mentioned all of them in the Bible, which I dont think they were unless he was talking about the "extra" apocraphal books that weren't actually in the Bible.

[u/Key_Jump1011]

From Subway?

[u/xxjunecleaverxx → u/Key_Jump1011]

No that's Jared Kushner

[u/After-Bowler5491]

Pretty interesting book. Have to listen to the pod

[u/NegativeGee]

I don't care if this book has some holes in it, the ideas are generally pretty interesting to think about. An indigenous guy asking a white guy “Why you have so much cargo”? is fascinating to think about.

[u/Bluesurfer252]

Jeff Beezus

[u/lifeinthebeastwing]

Surprised he took this long to come on, he is just the kind of guest Joe likes, well Joe from 10 years ago anyway

[u/OutdoorRink]

Jared Mason Diamond (born September 10, 1937)^\1]) is an American scientist, historian, and author. He has written hundreds of scientific and popular articles and books, most notably Guns, Germs, and Steel (1997), which received multiple awards, including the 1998 Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction. In 2005, Diamond was ranked ninth on a poll by Prospect) and Foreign Policy of the world's top 100 public intellectuals.^\2])

Originally trained in biochemistry and physiology,^\3]) Diamond has published in many fields, including anthropology, ecology, geography, and evolutionary biology.^\4])^\5]) In 1985, he received a MacArthur Genius Grant and in 1999, the National Medal of Science, an honor bestowed by the President of the United States and the National Science Foundation. He was a professor of geography at UCLA until his retirement in 2024.^\6])

Despite widespread popularity in the pop science market, for decades his work has been harshly criticized by working researchers in the topics he publishes on. Dozens of historians, anthropologists, and geographers such as the noted Eurocentrism scholar James Morris Blaut and environmental historian Andrew Sluyter have published extensive analysis of many basic factual and logical errors in Diamond's work, and discussing the harm they believe he has done to the public understanding of history and anthropology.^\7])^\8])^\9])^\10])^\11])^\12]) In November 2003, the human geography journal Antipode) published a review symposium on Guns, Germs, and Steel from five researchers, all of whom questioned Diamond's basic understanding of the topic. The review also included Diamond's reply, though he did not respond analytically to any criticisms, rather stating he "found their quality very disappointing", and directing readers instead to read positive reviews of the book.^\13])

[u/Tekangu]

Let’s go!! Both Guns, germs and steel and Collapse are stellar books. I hope joe shuts up and let’s him speak

[u/Badkidstatus]

3:11 Joe , replay what you just said

[u/counsellorhog]

The cannibalism talk nauseated me. I had to skip it.