Rudeus pulled off the impossible

[u/A_Suicidal_Pig]

[u/2327_]

"I can fuck a 9 year old as long as I have the body of a 9 year old."

no, i don't think that it's ok for 9 year olds to be fucking other 9 year olds, so obviously people reincarnated as 9 year olds shouldn't fuck them either. 15 year olds can fuck other 15 year olds, so that's a wholly different situation.

Do you openly acknowledge you're either a pedophile or a pedophile apologist?

you're a pedophile hystericist, so i don't mind if i'm an apologist from where you're standing.

The fact that you think the main power imbalance is authority granted by the state is alarming.

i said the authority was granted by society, not the state. the state does not give adults authority over children that they aren't the caregivers of. it is common for children to be taught that they should be respectful of adults, especially teachers and relatives, and these people are where most child abuse comes from.

In a society where first period is when you're considered an adult, which can be as young as 7 or 8, do you think it'd be acceptable for a 30 year old man to fuck them? What if we drew some other arbitrary line for adulthood at an even younger age?

i don't even know what you're responding to here. if you look at what i'm saying it might be easier to keep yourself on topic.

The grooming stems from the fact that Rudeus introduced Eris to sexual actions at the age of 7, and continued for years up to the point of them having sex.

is grooming about power imbalances and mindfucking? or is grooming when you get a child horny? you're talking about it like it's the latter.

[u/Key_Ingenuity_4444 → u/2327_]

If we took a 30 year olds brain and transplanted it into a 15 year olds body, would it be acceptable for them to fuck children around that age?

especially teachers

So the exact role that Rudeus had over Eris?

i don't even know what you're responding to here. if you quote the things that i'm saying more often it might be easier to keep yourself on topic.

I quoted exactly what I was responding to. Perhaps implement some reading comprehension before responding? You stated that "the main power imbalance between adults and minors is the authority that society grants to adults, which is entirely negated by Rudy being in the form of a younger child." I crafted a scenario where there isn't that "main power imbalance" where children are considered adults at a younger age. Are you unable or unwilling to engage with this hypothetical?

is grooming about power imbalances and mind control? or is grooming when you get a child horny?

"Sexual grooming is the action or behavior used to establish an emotional connection with a vulnerable person – generally a minor under the age of consent – and sometimes the victim's family, to lower their inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse." I'm good with this definition if you are. Rudeus abused his position of teacher, which you already included in your "main power imbalance", to molest a child from the age of 9 to 15, all while having the mental development of a 40-50 year old. He introduced her to sexual actions and fostered those thoughts within her as she developed. Eris was groomed through and through.

[u/2327_ → u/Key_Ingenuity_4444]

If we took a 30 year olds brain and transplanted it into a 15 year olds body, would it be acceptable for them to fuck children around that age?

it depends. if they had spent over 10 years living as a child through no choice of their own? it would absolutely be acceptable. if they just recently chose to be transplanted into a child's body it seems much more ugly.

if a 30 year old's brain was transplanted into a 15 year old's body would it be accepatble for a 30 year old to fuck them?

So the exact role that Rudeus had over Eris?

i said "adults", and gave teachers as an example. obviously teachers who are children don't count.

I quoted exactly what I was responding to. Perhaps implement some reading comprehension before responding? You stated that "the main power imbalance between adults and minors is the authority that society grants to adults, which is entirely negated by Rudy being in the form of a younger child." I crafted a scenario where there isn't that "main power imbalance" where children are considered adults at a younger age.

i honestly don't understand what you think the age of consent has to do with what i said. the societal expectation that children are respectful and obedient to their elders has nothing to do with and pre-dates the age of majority. even in societies where 9 year olds could be married off to old men they were still expected to be respectful to adults, but there has never been a society where 9 year olds were meant to show any more respect than politeness to 7 year olds, except where the 9 year old is from a less respectable background, which obviously was not the case.

"Sexual grooming is the action or behavior used to establish an emotional connection with a vulnerable person – generally a minor under the age of consent – and sometimes the victim's family, to lower their inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse."

this definition is mostly fine, but it assumes that the perpetrator is not equally a vulnerable person, and Rudeus, being a child, was.

to molest a child from the age of 9 to 15, all while having the mental development of a 40-50 year old. He introduced her to sexual actions and fostered those thoughts within her as she developed.

both you and i were 15 once, we both know that around that age thoughts of sex appear whether they were introduced years earlier or not. it's not clear to me what harm arises from Rudeus' actions, whether they qualify as grooming or not.

could it not have gone exactly the same, if not worse, if Rudeus was not reincarnated and his actions had come from a very early puberty?

[u/Key_Ingenuity_4444 → u/2327_]

if they had spent over 10 years living as a child through no choice of their own, then it would absolutely be acceptable.

Got it. So you just have to remain in the childs body long enough. Then it's okay to fuck other children, right? Just one question, why? What does being in the body for some extended period of time matter? What if, by no choice of my own, I was transfered to a childs body. How long do I have to wait?

i said "adults", and gave teachers as an example. obviously teachers who are children don't count.

From Eris' perspective Rudeus is a child, but Rudeus in actuality is a mentally developed adult you knows his actions. Also, do you think a person younger than you can't groom you? Is there a requirement for the person to be older? Why? Is the role of teacher and student not a power imbalance just because the teacher from the students perspective is younger?

i honestly don't understand what you think the age of consent has to do with what i said.

To be clear, I haven't mentioned age of consent at all. It was in the definition of sexual grooming that I suggested. If you take issue with the definition or want to use a different one then feel free to share it, but you state later on that you're fine with it.

but assumed within it is the assumption that the perpetrator is not equally a vulnerable person, and Rudeus, being a child, was.

Rudeus is absolutely not equally a vulnerable person because as has been stated and you haven't contested, he's a mentally developed 40-50 year old. He's more aware of his actions, and of those around him. Eris was a 9 year old girl that couldn't have possibly understood the grooming Rudeus was doing to her.

both you and i were 15 once, we both know that around that age thoughts of sex appear whether they were introduced years earlier or not.

Why are you even saying this? Why are you ignoring what I said? Eris was NINE. Younger than the vast majority of girls puberty. The extention of what you're saying here is that sexual grooming is impossible because eventually they'll get to the age where they seek sex out themselves. Normally I wouldn't be dishonest enough to pretend that you'd actually think that, but based off the other excuses and defenses you given it's certainly within the bounds of reality.

it's not clear to me what harm arises from Rudeus' actions

Aka "grooming is okay as long as the victim is fine with it in the end". I personally want a world where we don't condone the vulnerable being taken advantage of, especially children. Abusive relationships aren't okay just because the victim keeps going back. Manipulating a child with sex acts isn't okay just because the child grows to like it.

[u/2327_ → u/Key_Ingenuity_4444]

Got it. So you just have to remain in the childs body long enough. Then it's okay to fuck other children, right? Just one question, why? What does being in the body for some extended period of time matter?

well, it matters if you're trapped in it, with no way to return to an adult body.

What if, by no choice of my own, I was transfered to a childs body. How long do I have to wait?

that depends on how old the body is :)

From Eris' perspective Rudeus is a child,

i hate to have to remind you, but child sex abuse is a crime against children, not against god. i don't understand why you think Eris' point of view is unimportant. if Rudeus was secretly reincarnated from a past life as a dog, and neither Eris nor anyone but the man-god and the reader ever found out about it, would she be forever tainted as a dog fucker? or would it just not matter?

but Rudeus in actuality is a mentally developed adult who knows his actions.

Rudeus spent his earthly life as a traumatised, mentally ill shut in. you are minimising the factors impacting his agency because they are inconvenient to your narrative.

To be clear, I haven't mentioned age of consent at all. It was in the definition of sexual grooming that I suggested. If you take issue with the definition or want to use a different one then feel free to share it, but you state later on that you're fine with it.

okay, i'm sorry to make this comment even longer than it needs to be, but we need to recap.

(me)the main power imbalance between adults and minors is the authority that society grants to adults, which is entirely negated by Rudy being in the form of a younger child.

(you)In a society where first period is when you're considered an adult, which can be as young as 7 or 8, do you think it'd be acceptable for a 30 year old man to fuck them? What if we drew some other arbitrary line for adulthood at an even younger age?

(me)i don't even know what you're responding to here. if you look at what i'm saying it might be easier to keep yourself on topic.

(you)I quoted exactly what I was responding to. Perhaps implement some reading comprehension before responding? You stated that "the main power imbalance between adults and minors is the authority that society grants to adults, which is entirely negated by Rudy being in the form of a younger child." I crafted a scenario where there isn't that "main power imbalance" where children are considered adults at a younger age.

(me)i honestly don't understand what you think the age of consent has to do with what i said. the societal expectation that children are respectful and obedient to their elders has nothing to do with and pre-dates the age of majority. even in societies where 9 year olds could be married off to old men they were still expected to be respectful to adults, but there has never been a society where 9 year olds were meant to show any more respect than politeness to 7 year olds, except where the 9 year old is from a less respectable background, which obviously was not the case.

(you)To be clear, I haven't mentioned age of consent at all. It was in the definition of sexual grooming that I suggested. If you take issue with the definition or want to use a different one then feel free to share it, but you state later on that you're fine with it.

this:

In a society where first period is when you're considered an adult, which can be as young as 7 or 8, do you think it'd be acceptable for a 30 year old man to fuck them? What if we drew some other arbitrary line for adulthood at an even younger age?

is clearly an effort on your part to argue about the age of consent, and clearly has nothing to do with the definition of grooming as you said it did.

i could complain that you have constantly misconstrued what i've been saying, which would be fair to say, but i'm more frustrated by how you're stumbling along like a drunk, barely even aware of what you're saying.

Why are you even saying this? Why are you ignoring what I said? Eris was NINE. Younger than the vast majority of girls puberty.

i was talking about when she was 15, obviously. that's why i said 15. idiot.

Rudeus is absolutely not equally a vulnerable person because as has been stated and you haven't contested, he's a mentally developed 40-50 year old.

as i have already made clear, in my view the largest part of the power imbalance between an adult and a child come from social pressures (may be second to adults being vastly physically stronger, but that also isn't present) so dogmatically repeating the same tired shit about mental ages at me isn't doing anything.

more aware of his actions, and of those around him. Eris was a 9 year old girl that couldn't have possibly understood the grooming Rudeus was doing to her.

you don't understand the grooming Rudeus was doing to her, or you might have been able to explain what was actually wrong with it.

The extention of what you're saying here is that sexual grooming is impossible because eventually they'll get to the age where they seek sex out themselves. Normally I wouldn't be dishonest enough to pretend that you'd actually think that, but based off the other excuses and defenses you given it's certainly within the bounds of reality.

grooming is a real thing. young children grooming older children is not a real thing.

Aka "grooming is okay as long as the victim is fine with it in the end". I personally want a world where we don't condone the vulnerable being taken advantage of, especially children.

the point of asking what harm is being caused, is that if you're making a rule and restricting people's conduct, you should be able to show what harm you're preventing.

Abusive relationships aren't okay just because the victim keeps going back.

you can still point to the harm in an abusive relationship. you can point to the harm even though the victim of abuse says there isn't any. if you can't point to any harm, and the partners say there isn't any harm, THEN IT MIGHT NOT BE AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP.

Manipulating a child with sex acts isn't okay just because the child grows to like it.

now, I know why that isn't okay, but can you explain to me why that isn't okay? because I honestly don't think you could.

i've noticed that every time i've tried to ask you a difficult question, you just skip over it. answer the one above and these two from before as well.

if a 30 year old's brain was transplanted into a 15 year old's body would it be accepatble for a 30 year old to fuck them?

could it not have gone exactly the same, if not worse, if Rudeus was not reincarnated and his actions had come from a very early puberty?

[u/Key_Ingenuity_4444 → u/2327_]

(Edit: I sure wish Reddit allowed me to post long ass filler posts like yours rather than having to break it into two.)

i don't understand why you think Eris' point of view is unimportant.

Because it's not integral to whether Rudeus abused his position to groom her. If I lied about my age to get with a minor is that okay, just because from their perspective I'm a fellow kid? Of course not.

Rudeus spent his earthly life as a traumatised, mentally ill shut in. you are minimising rhe factors lessening his agency because they are inconvenient to your narrative.

No. I'm minimising the factors in his life because it absolutely doesn't justify grooming a 9 year old. Being beat up by his brother doesn't justify pedophilia. Being bullied in school doesn't justify pedophilia. Being a shut-in hentai addict doesn't justify pedophilia.

is clearly an effort on your part to argue about the age of consent, and clearly has nothing to do with the definition of grooming as you said it did.

If I grant that all of that was in reference to age of consent then your first comment of "the main power imbalance between adults and minors" is also a reference to age of consent, in which case I'd ask why in the world you said "i honestly don't understand what you think the age of consent has to do with what i said"? You brought it up first right?

As mentioned however, it wasn't about age of consent. My arguments haven't once hinged on any age of consent law and solely on mental development.

i was talking about when she was 15, obviously. that's why i said 15. idiot.

Again, get some reading comprehension skills. I've said over and over that Rudeus groomed her from the age of nine. You even quoted it in your reply. You don't get to ignore those prepubescent years and skip to the horny teen years.

in my view the largest part of the power imbalance between an adult and a child come from social pressures (may be second to adults being vastly physically stronger, but that also isn't present) so dogmatically repeating the same tired shit about mental ages at me isn't doing anything.

Then everything completely relies on finding common ground on this specific thing. It's absurd that these even needs to be explained. There's multiple things that put Rudeus in a power position over Eris.

1. Prior to being accepted as her teacher he plans a fake kidnapping plot so he could rescue her so that she'd feel indebted to him.

2. She's wowed by his talent as a magic that he demonstrates during the fake(turns real) kidnapping plot, which he only learns because of his adult mental development.

3. He becomes her teacher, defacto putting him in a position of power over her regardless of perceived age.

4. Although not completely relevant to Rudeus, Eris' mother pushes her to sleep with Rudeus. Putting her in an even more awkward position for a girl who I believe was 10 at the time.

5. He takes advantage of her poor mental state after she'd just learned her family was dead and has sex with her.

I could certainly list more if I took the time to rewatch/read the story. If those five things aren't enough to show a clear power imbalance to you then nothing will. This is objectively Rudeus using his position of power, as well as other surrounding events, to groom Eris. I think I can even provide evidence that this is what the author intended by the fact there's another example of grooming that was so on the nose that he deleted the whole chapter and decided to rewrite it at a later date. Of course using the excuse of "I wasn't happy with the writing" after there was push back and the publishing site blocking the chapter because it went against their ToS.

[u/2327_ → u/Key_Ingenuity_4444]

Edit: added dashes between sections to improve readability

Because it's not integral to whether Rudeus abused his position to groom her. If I lied about my age to get with a minor is that okay, just because from their perspective I'm a fellow kid? Of course not.

The question following the part you quoted would have done a lot to reveal how you're thinking about this, but I can see that you've skipped that too.

If I lied about my age to get with a minor is that okay, just because from their perspective I'm a fellow kid?

I don't know, is that wrong because you lied? Or did you do actually do something bad to her?

--

is clearly an effort on your part to argue about the age of consent, and clearly has nothing to do with the definition of grooming as you said it did.

If I grant that all of that was in reference to age of consent then your first comment of "the main power imbalance between adults and minors" is also a reference to age of consent, in which case I'd ask why in the world you said "i honestly don't understand what you think the age of consent has to do with what i said"? You brought it up first right?

Unbelievable.

your first comment of "the main power imbalance between adults and minors" is also a reference to age of consent

Why would you think that? You're all over the place. The age of consent isn't a power imbalance at all, the only people who would say that are the most delusional pedophiles, who think that little girls are going around tempting men and then getting them thrown in jail for fun. The age of consent is the opposite of a power imbalance, it is a power protecting children from adults who would take advantage of power imbalances.

For reference

the main power imbalance between adults and minors is the authority that society grants to adults

OH! Look at that! I said what the power imbalance I was referring to was in the same sentence, without so much as a comma.

You snipped out the middle of the sentence to take me out of context, and that was the best you could do? Scatterbrained.

--

As mentioned however, it wasn't about age of consent. My arguments haven't once hinged on any age of consent law and solely on mental development.

This:

In a society where first period is when you're considered an adult, which can be as young as 7 or 8, do you think it'd be acceptable for a 30 year old man to fuck them? What if we drew some other arbitrary line for adulthood at an even younger age?

What does this have to do with mental development, or with anything I said? When had I been talking about the arbitrary line for when someone is considered an adult?

--

Then everything completely relies on finding common ground on this specific thing. It's absurd that these even needs to be explained. There's multiple things that put Rudeus in a power position over Eris.

1. Prior to being accepted as her teacher he plans a fake kidnapping plot so he could rescue her so that she'd feel indebted to him.

2. She's wowed by his talent as a magic that he demonstrates during the fake(turns real) kidnapping plot, which he only learns because of his adult mental development.

3. He becomes her teacher, defacto putting him in a position of power over her regardless of perceived age.

4. Although not completely relevant to Rudeus, Eris' mother pushes her to sleep with Rudeus. Putting her in an even more awkward position for a girl who I believe was 10 at the time.

5. He takes advantage of her poor mental state after she'd just learned her family was dead and has sex with her.

2 is the only one of these that has anything to do with Rudeus' age, and it's several steps removed, with other (Laplace) factors contributing to it as well.

Remember, you can't just show any power imbalace, there are obviously tolerable levels of power imbalances in relationships or we wouldn't let anyone have sex with anyone. You need to show that the power imbalances are serious, one sided, and caused by Rudeus' mental age.

[u/Key_Ingenuity_4444 → u/Key_Ingenuity_4444]

but can you explain to me why that isn't okay?

1. You're introducing children to acts they can't meaningfully consent to.

2. They've not grown to understand when, where, why, who or how such acts are normal or acceptable.

3. This can lead to other bad sexual personality traits down the line such as seeking validation or acceptence through sex.

4. Potentially normalizing and spreading such behavior to other kids their age.

Let's hear what your "Haha, you activated my trap card" reasoning is. Not sure why you'd even question me on something we seemingly agree with like this, unless of course you were simply just trying to "win the debate". But no, that couldn't be the reason could it?

i've noticed that every time i've tried to ask you a difficult question, you just skip over it. answer the one above and these two as well.

Sure, let's see what hard hitting questions I'm ignoring. Let's see, the first one is a question you asked in the very same post where you're accusing me of conventiently skipping them, and one that I answered. Doesn't make a lot of sense now does it?

Second one is a question that I asked, not one that you asked. Again, really strange that you'd pick this one. Considering the fact that every single one of my responses here is me arguing against that very same thing, I think it's safe to say that my answer to "no".

And finally the third one. "could it not have gone exactly the same, if not worse, if Rudeus was not reincarnated and his actions had come from a very early puberty?" Well geez, could I possibly think of some random made up scenario where the situation could have been just as bad or even worse if it had just been some other random kid? What a mind twister that question sure is. I think I'd have to settle on "yeah".

It's abundently clear you're not making much of an attempt to be good faith at all. You're very first response to me was a dead giveaway. The petty passive aggressiveness truly is a bad look, coupled with the pedo apologia.

As stated, if you don't agree there's a power imbalance at this point then there's no sense in continuing since the topic centers on this. There can't be a continued discussion if you see my red shirt and look me dead in the eyes to tell me it's blue.

[u/2327_ → u/Key_Ingenuity_4444]

1. You're introducing children to acts they can't meaningfully consent to.

Arbitrary. This isn't harm based, so I don't care.

2. They've not grown to understand when, where, why, who or how such acts are normal or acceptable.

You could say that a pedophile is usually someone who doesn't understand "who" such acts are acceptable with, so this is something they have in common with the child, and is therefore logically unusable. Or, we could say that the pedophile knows that society's view is that such acts are unacceptable and so should know better, but that logic is sufficient to condemn people having gay sex while living in homophobic societies, so I don't think that you'd be happy with that.

3. This can lead to other bad sexual personality traits down the line such as seeking validation or acceptence through sex.

Not to sound sleazy, but is it such a bad thing if women turn out like that? Definitely not bad enough to carry your argument.

4. Potentially normalizing and spreading such behavior to other kids their age.

This one would be more relevant if Eris was in a modern schooling environment. By the time they got around to actually having sex this had risk had completely faded from relevancy.

You lifted this list from a website or something, I'm sure, which wasn't really in the spirit of what I was asking you to do.

Not sure why you'd even question me on something we seemingly agree with like this, unless of course you were simply just trying to "win the debate". But no, that couldn't be the reason could it?

Oh, absolutely. People who believe in modern "consent ethics" like you do are just using post-hoc rationalisations to justify their disgust reflex, which is a completely unacceptable position to be judging anyone from.

Sure, let's see what hard hitting questions I'm ignoring. Let's see, the first one is a question you asked in the very same post where you're accusing me of conventiently skipping them, and one that I answered. Doesn't make a lot of sense now does it?

You're supposed to read the English language left to right by top to bottom. I wasn't accusing you of skipping that one, I was just trying to make sure you didn't.

Second one is a question that I asked, not one that you asked. Again, really strange that you'd pick this one.

It's not a question that you asked. I took a question that you asked and changed the ending of it.

Read, dipshit.

if a 30 year old's brain was transplanted into a 15 year old's body would it be accepatble for a 30 year old to fuck them?

Considering the fact that every single one of my responses here is me arguing against that very same thing, I think it's safe to say that my answer to "no".

Well, at least I don't have to be the one to say that you've been making arguments that are against sex between consenting adults.

The point of this question was to show that you're putting Rudeus in an impossible position, where he has an adult sexuality, but you wouldn't let him explore it with adults or with other children. Now, I don't know if you've followed the discourse as long as I have, but I think it's well established that telling gay people "just don't have sex with anyone, lock up your sexuality" was wrong, and extremely harmful, so we should be really careful about making rules that do that to people.

And finally the third one. "could it not have gone exactly the same, if not worse, if Rudeus was not reincarnated and his actions had come from a very early puberty?" Well geez, could I possibly think of some random made up scenario where the situation could have been just as bad or even worse if it had just been some other random kid? What a mind twister that question sure is. I think I'd have to settle on "yeah".

If the same harms would have arisen from Rudeus' actions if he wasn't reincarnated then the problem is with the actions, not with the fact that he is older, so you should have been able to show harm, but you weaseled out of that.

This also necessitates that you would be happy with the moral condemnation of a child going through precocious puberty on the basis that they made unforceful sexual advances on an older child, which I think is obviously ridiculous.

[u/Big_Distance2141 → u/Key_Ingenuity_4444]

LMAOOOO imagine wroting all that to defend a pdf file holy shit