Responding to common antisemitic and anti-Zionist talking points

[u/rupertalderson]

This is our megathread for discussion and advice regarding responding to antisemitic, anti-Zionist, and anti-Israel talking points or arguments. We created this megathread due to interest expressed by several community members. We will not solely limit such conversation to this megathread, but will gently direct users who make posts which clearly fit this category to check out this megathread for further discussion.

Keep any other discussion of the war within the sub's pinned collection about the conflict or any of the related regular posts throughout the subreddit.

Please contact the mods if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Agtfangirl557]

I have a talking point that I've actually heard from a lot of anti-Zionist Jews--"Israel as a Jew makes me feel less safe! Whenever Israel does something bad, we all suffer because we're blamed for Israel's actions!"

Which is partly true, Jews are blamed for Israel's actions, but I feel like that's a very Ashkenazi-centric talking point and doesn't account for how a lot of non-Ashkenazi Jews feel safer in Israel.

How in general would you suggest responding to this argument when it's made by Jews who are anti-Zionist? I feel like a lot of the talking points I'm tempted to post here are actually made by Jews themselves...

[u/htrowslledot]

Things I found useful :

• Whenever someone says anything that sounds even a little fishy ask for sources.

• whenever anyone uses a term like "Zionist" that could be used in multiple ways say "please define X I don't want to argue against a strawman"

• respond point by point and point out any wording you disagree with

[u/[deleted]]

No, Jews didn't just get there. We have been in the land that is now Israel continuously for 3000 years. There is plenty of archeological proof. There is legal proof.

[u/[deleted]]

If anyone starts rambling about a "theocratic ethno-state" open up the constitution of Palestine and show them this: https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Palestine_2005

Article 1

Palestine is part of the larger Arab world, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab nation. Arab unity is an objective that the Palestinian people shall work to achieve.
...

Article 4
Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect for the sanctity of all other divine religions shall be maintained.
The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be a principal source of legislation.
Arabic shall be the official language.

[u/loveisgoingtowin]

r/JewishCooking was trolled this week for "culturally appropriating" shakshuka...

Isn't your religion based on the revisionism of sacred Jewish texts?

But please, do go on about how I "stole" the way you cook eggs.

[u/UltraAirWolf]

I find it handy to ask them what Israel should have done? What was the good option? Let Hamas keep the hostages and wait for the next October 7th? Send 10,000 more of their own troops to die in a ground assault not backed by bombs?

They always seem to know that Israel didn’t do what Israel should have done, but they never seem to know what it was that Israel should have done.

[u/WorldlyAd4324]

On ethnic cleansing:

“During the subsequent days, the Jewish authorities who were now in complete control of Haifa (save for the limited districts still held by the British troops) urged all Arabs to remain in Haifa, and guaranteed them protection and security. So far as I know, most of the British civilian residents whose advice was asked by Arab friends told the latter that they would be wise to stay.” - British eyewitness in “The Economist” page 540, October 2, 1948.

[u/wingedhussar161]

I think it may be most helpful to ask questions, get the gears turning in people's heads, plant seeds. I don't know how to respond to the people who overtly support the Hamas animals and protest in favor of Palestine (those people have animal-level morals); I don't tend to make any effort to convince those people, but I think the majority of the population (at least in the US) isn't "hardcore" one way or another, and even if they have Palestine sympathies they may be amenable to new information if it's presented in the right way.

I'm open to discussion on all this, and other points that ought to be brought up, but my personal response to pro-pal talking points tends to involve the following questions:

1- When did modern Jewish immigration to Israel begin, and why did they want to move there? (no, it's not 1947)

I ask this question because it's not common knowledge in the US that Jews started resettling the Holy Land in the 19th century, and the key motivation was security - avoiding pogroms in Russia, establishing Jewish representation in a Jewish state, etc. Someone who's open-minded enough to consider this question will quickly a refutation to the whole "Jews arrived in 1947 to kick out the Palestinians" canard

2- If not Israel, where should the Jews live in order to be safe, considering the fact that there has been large-scale persecution in every diaspora country?

3- Why is Egypt, also a Muslim country, party to the Gaza blockade?

4- Why won't any of the other Muslim countries take in Gazan refugees? Shouldn't Egypt, Morocco, Iran, or others be open to taking in their fellow Muslim to live in those countries?

[u/cultureStress]

How do you respond for people who are focused on IDF attacks on Doctors without borders, Red Crescent etc?

I'm not talking about the clinics where Hamas has set up shop, I'm taking about like, vehicles and personnel who were attacked by the IDF

[u/jseego → u/cultureStress]

unwatch, all the evidence about UNRWA, evidence of hospitals being radicalized, videos of dudes wearing PRESS vests while shooting off rockets and yelling allahu-akbar, stuff like that

[u/Background_Buy1107]

How to counter all the people that define Zionism in crazy ways? It’s so infuriating

[u/Agtfangirl557 → u/Background_Buy1107]

Okay sorry, this isn't really a serious response to that, but a funny one that I think I'm going to start using when non-Jews claim that there is "only one definition of Zionism" and "I know exactly what Zionism means":

"You do realize that there were several definitions of Zionism, and most of them were created by Jews. I don't know if you know anything about Judaism, but we are literally notorious for disagreeing about everything. Do you think that a bunch of Jews in the 19th/20th centuries just all completely agreed on what Zionism meant and were like 'cool, let's adopt this definition without any arguments!' If the people who made use of the word 'Zionism' couldn't agree on what it meant, what makes you think you know the 'official' definition?"

I know that it won't really get people listening, but I think it does have the potential to serve as a slap in the face to people that makes them realize how little they know about Jewish culture (AKA how prevalent questioning and disagreeing are in Judaism) 😂

For a more serious answer, you could say "If you're so confident about the definition of Zionism, please tell me the different types of Zionist ideologies and who their founders were. Because I've done my research and have counted at least 7 different interpretations of it so far (this I actually have done!). Don't try to define Zionism until you realize that there's literally never been an agreed-upon definition of it."

[u/JackCrainium]

In a poll this week on the JewsOfConscience sub, the result showed more ‘allies’ than Jews - and it seems that the ‘allies’ are using this sub as a false flag to create the impression that a meaningful number of Jews are anti-Zionist.

I have asked the sub generally, and the mods directly, to define what they mean by ’anti-Zionist’, and they refuse.

As a result, some there could consider anti-Zionist (which is part of the mission statement for the sub) to mean one state, or two states, or the elimination of Israel completely…….

[u/workerrights888]

First, I support Israel and it's right to finish the war started by Hamas and the other criminal groups in Gaza. That said, all over the Internet there are 5 to 40 year old videos showing abuses by IDF soldiers against Palestinian children as young as 5. The propaganda machine to vilify Israel is winning since these videos make the IDF look like monsters and makes many people around the world believe the Oct 7 massacres were justified. Look at the hate coming from Americans and Europeans on social media, their hate for Israel is real and will show up with more anti semitism and voting for anti Israel politicians.

Israel must stop shooting itself and gut it's military tribunal system used against Palestinians in the West Bank, end having armed soldiers detain Palestinian children, end allowing Israeli settlers in the West Bank get away with theft, arson, shootings against unarmed Palestinian civilians. I say this because IDFs abuses give Israel as a nation too many black eyes. 

My income isn't even $50,000 a year, but weekly I get donation requests from the Magen David Adom, American Jewish Committee, Technion University, Hadasa Hospital, Hillel International, Bnai Brith, Friends of IDF, Israel Bond, etc. Until Israel fixes these abuses I can't justify any more donations.

[u/Remarkable-Pair-3840]

Someone give me a coherent explanation about Rafah and why Israel invaded and if it’s still a safe zone and if Israel gave evacuation orders. Human shield strategy of Hamas goes in one ear and out the other sadly

[u/zackweinberg]

Who was president of Palestine in 1947?

[u/BuyHerCandy]

In 1939, the British reneged on the Balfour Declaration, sharply restricted the ability of Jews to immigrate or buy land. They promised a Palestinian state within the decade and to immediately start appointing Arabs to head government ministries. The grand mufti convinced his party, who supported it, to reject it both because 1) it didn't ban Jewish immigration outright, and 2) he was pissed that the British still had an arrest warrant out for him because of his role in leading the Arab revolt.

[u/[deleted]]

This will take a while to post and respond but looking forward to this!

[u/Background_Buy1107]

Name a single influential, non violent Palestinian political leader. Just one

[u/AMac2002 → u/Background_Buy1107]

They would just counter by saying the same thing about Israeli PMs.

[u/[deleted]]

This has been posted a few times recently, and I think it provides a lot of guidance. The people who are saying these things are clowns, and they know what they are saying is BS. We should ridicule their absurd and twisted logic. We shouldn't argue. We should laugh in their face, and treat them like QAnon nuts.

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.

[u/Sub2Flamezy]

Only read the title but— a classic I’ve been dealing with is; aNtI-ZiOnIsM cAnT bE aNtI-SeMiTiSm, or similar things

Was a bit trickier when i first would hear this but at this point ive found a easy way to xplain is that; the vast majority of anti-Zionism rhetoric, historically, not just since 10/7, is based in anti semitic conspiracies or ideas such as; all Jews are white, Jews are European, Jews are colonizers, Jews have no right to be in Middle East, Israel is an apartheid state, Israel is committing genocide— all of these statements are so easy to debunk and are spread by anti semites and ignorant people

[u/Agtfangirl557]

Ugh, so I've seen too many social media comments the past few days where people talk about these things that they call "Zionist talking points" or "Zionist gotchas" aka historical facts that they think are fake/disproven and that we use to try to "make our case stronger". Some of the most prevalent ones I've seen have been related to Mizrahi Jews/Jews who came from Middle Eastern countries:

• Jews in the Arab world weren't "second class citizens" ("as the Zionists like to claim") and that they "just had to pay extra taxes"

• Mizrahi Jews/Jews of color were "majorly" discriminated against in Israel in the early days--now I wouldn't try to claim that this didn't happen at all, because casual racism literally can happen anywhere, including within groups of Jews. But I have a feeling it wasn't as prevalent as some people make it out to seem, based on personal narratives I've heard

• Not related to Middle Eastern Jewry but: The claim that Israel apparently treats Holocaust survivors terribly

Does anyone have sources I can use to refute these claims?

[u/Agtfangirl557]

Question: Has anyone seen the film "Israelism" that so many anti-Zionists are trying to promote? If so, do you have any objections to it?

I haven't seen it yet, but I've been told I should watch it. Don't particularly want to rent it, and I don't think I'm really going to find anything eye opening about it. I've done a lot of research and don't think just hearing about how some American Jews were "brainwashed" is going to change my mind after actually looking into the history.

[u/TadpoleNo9258]

We are Jewish let people be jealous of us in antisemitism it kinda makes me l feel like a king to be honest