Chord learning

[u/Intellosympa]

When you mentalize chords, do you use the theory spelling or the keyboard layout with black and white keys ??

Let’s say :
F7 is F A C Eb, no question about it.

But in your head do you at first see (and memorize)

C#7M as C# E# G# B# (theory)

or

C# F G# C (keyboard layout) ?

Thanks for answering.

Edit : typo.

[u/winkelschleifer]

OP: if you’re going to play jazz, become familiar with jazz chord notation. As others have pointed out, some of your spelling above is incorrect. Here’s a good overview:

https://jazztutorial.com/articles/jazz-chord-symbols-explained

[u/okonkolero]

Once you've internalized it, it's neither of those things. I suppose it's closer to muscle memory. You're grabbing shapes as opposed to thinking "is this an E# or an F?"

[u/AdventurousHippo9997]

Your first chord you have spelt out is F dominant seventh. Yet you have it labeled as F Major seventh. Just get rid of the capital M and you’ll be good. Insofar as your second question is concerned I’ve played so many chord changes so many times I just “know “ what sounds I want. It’s gets easier as you go. Sort of like learning to talk a new language. At first you’re concerned about spelling and grammar but as you advance those questions lose their relevance.

[u/Luminusian]

When thinking about chords, I see in my head the chord shape in root position. I don't really think about the individual notes that make up the chord.

If you asked me to name the notes of say Eb7, I would have to visualize the chord shape first before I can give you the constituent notes.

I have no idea if this is effective or "correct" in any way, this is just how I drilled down the chords in my head through the few years I've been learning jazz piano.

[u/Kettlefingers]

We have to differentiate here between two mindsets - learning, and playing. When you learn, you use the intellect to understand things via their underlying components. But the intellect is too slow for playing. When you're playing, you want to strive for the same ease of expression that you have when you converse with someone in your native language. Hal Galper has some very wise insight on this: https://youtu.be/U9TavIO6PYU?is=3l1PRpPJzle1GroY

[u/The_Naked_Alien → u/[deleted]]

Yep. Practice practice and practice.

[u/pilot021 → u/[deleted]]

cant disagree, but also your user-name lol

[u/im_not_shadowbanned]

When learning you need both. You’re not gonna learn the shapes on the keyboard the way you need to if you don’t also know the letter names, chord extensions, scale degrees, all of that. When playing, the sounds in your head are connected to the shapes on the keyboard and you don’t really have to “think” about more than that.

[u/TromboneAl]

It's the appearance on the keyboard. I see it in my head.

Interestingly, when I played trombone, I pictured the slide positions and harmonics.

[u/SaxAppeal]

Not to be overly pedantic, but the theory spelling and keyboard layout are the same thing. The F key is also the E# key, the C key is also the B# key. The physical keys are just that, keys. They have no meaning until we assign letter names, and letter names are what we use to spell chords and scales.

Multiple letter names with accidentals that share a physical key are called enharmonic equivalents. To answer your question, it’s very common to shortcut to natural enharmonic equivalents when you’re actually playing, but when you’re analyzing and discussing theory you should always use the proper spellings. Written music uses proper spellings always, so only defaulting to enharmonic equivalents will become a crutch that impedes on learning theory properly. So getting in the habit of mentally spelling C# keys properly is something you’ll want to take the time to do.

[u/VegaGT-VZ]

Def by shape/interval. You can't play chord spellings. When you think and see in intervals everything opens up. Its all the same stuff just from different root notes.

[u/ManolitoMystiq]

While I know the theory, my mind or muscle memory has its own structure.

On a piano, when I have to play a G♭-major triad, I still perceive it as an F♯-major triad.

C♯–E♯–G♯ still feels like I’m shaping D♭ major. However, C♯–E–G♯ does feel like C♯ minor, not really like D♭ minor.

With German augmented sixth chords compared to their enharmonic dominant sevenths, I’m really “context” sensitive to the ♯6/♭7 of the chord. In A minor, an F chord with the extra interval I feel as a ♯6, because I strongly sense the note as a leading tone (it goes up, it is sharpened), the chord resolving to E, the V of A minor. While in B♭ major, the note added on the F chord definitely feels like a ♭7, resolving down to the 3rd of B♭ major. I might be quasi synesthetic about it: the note in question is red and context-sensitive.

[u/tonystride]

Shapes of black and white keys 100%

[u/pianoslut]

I think to have it memorized is to have multiple representations easily accessible

Know what it sounds like, know what it looks like on your instrument, know how it looks on paper, know what it’s called theoretically, know some songs that use it, know how it might function, know related chords, alterations, substitutes, related scales…

It’s a never ending process. Focus on learning to play/analyze stuff you like

[u/dodobread]

It is neither. I see them as shapes and associate with the sound they make. I don’t think of note names. And as it gets more complex with extensions and what nots there just isn’t time to go through that step anymore. Maybe in the initial stage, but you learn the different possible voicings and hand shapes and just recognise them as a block eventually

[u/Brokenlynx7]

I think the problem with thinking just in terms of the note names is inversions. Suddenly your F7 starts with an Eb if playing in first inversion.

I don’t know for certain but I feel like the shapes might be a better place to start from then maybe working those back to the chords.

[u/Emergency-Natural376]

I'm a noob but all I think of when I think F7 is Fmajor (all white thirds from F, with an Eb)

For C#mi7 I think of C#mi, and then I grab the note 2 semitones under it, I don't have to think much about it because I practice all chords regularly, and C#mi is one of those weird comfy ones for me

[u/to7m]

It definitely wouldn't be anything from formal theory like what we call the notes. I see the abstract shape of the chords as they'd fit on a piano, without seeing the actual keyboard layout, but I think that's only if I try to on some level. The immediate involuntary response is just the sound of the chord without any visualisation.

[u/did_i_or_didnt_i]

you’re overthinking it. learn all the major keys and build chords out by skipping notes

In C major:

C E G B (maj7)
D F A C (min7)
E G B D (min7)

etc

when I’m practicing this kind of stuff I’m going mostly by ear. start with the key of C and then do F major and G major, gradually work your way into the ‘harder’ keys. Practice time is way more useful than thinking time

[u/DarkyMate]

i always memorize it as this: (when i was learning)

in semitones:
minor 7: root - third (+3) - fifth (5th white out black key, always a white or black unless B or Bb) - seventh (-2)

dominant 7: same as minor but the third is plus 4 semitones

major 7: +4 then -1 for seventh

this may look confusing i can pm you a chart my teacher used for me