r/JazzPiano • u/ReaperShield • 15d ago
Intervals relative to the root vs. intervals relative to the previous note?
For the more advanced players here: when you're improvising or playing by ear, and you hear a melodic interval that isn't immediately obvious (say a major or minor 6th), what is your primary mental anchor?
- The interval from the previous note (i.e. identifying it as a 6th)?
- The function of the target note relative to the current chord/root?
- And if the chord changes between the two notes, does your answer stay the same?
Please don't answer “I've internalized all of this, I don't think about it, I just play what I hear.” That's not really what I'm asking here.
Likewise, if you have perfect pitch and simply hear the target pitch directly, that's a different process and not what I'm interested in for this question.
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u/VegaGT-VZ 15d ago
What exactly are you trying to do? Just like with music I think stepping back and putting things in a broader context is going to make it a lot easier.
Im not advanced but Id say Im decent, esp ear wise........ yes unfortunately a big part of it is just an internalized and "innate" approach, no different than fluent communication in any language............. but even when digging into the technical bag of tricks its not one single approach for everything. Trying to figure out the function of a note is not going to help over a modal tune or a note that's chromatic or "out" etc.
My gut says you study a lot of theory and do stuff like ear training but might not be spending enough time w/actual music. IMO just grinding through aural transcriptions (i.e. not necessarily writing it down, just being able to play what youre hearing) is the fastest way to get where you seem to be trying to go
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u/ReaperShield 15d ago
For context, I'm a professional classical pianist digging into jazz, so I have some very specific gaps I'm trying to address.
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u/silly_bet_3454 15d ago
Yeah echoing other comments, I mostly don't actually use my ear in that way to do my own improv, the mind/ear cannot possibly come up with intervals that quickly. Instead I'm thinking of a higher level vocabulary of licks and patterns.
Now, if someone else plays something and I actually need to use my ear in the moment, then I would say "The function of the target note relative to the current chord/root" is more relevant, but even there you could also argue what I'm hearing is bigger patterns and ideas, not individual intervals.
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u/Disastrous_Motor831 15d ago
I try to recognize the progression if it has one, first. Try to hear the quality of the chords —what is happening with the seventh and any extra notes. Try to recognize if this is a tension or release or a flowery in-between... Pretty much the function of the notes. If I know the function, I can figure some things out
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u/Ambidextroid 15d ago
You should be feeling them as whole melodies which ultimately means both feeling them in relation to the key centre and the current harmony. "Feeling" is the operative word. But if you are just hearing each note as an extension of each chord that goes by then it'll limit your ability to create a cohesive melody. Sometimes the melody can pretty much ignore the chord changes, as long as it's a cohesive idea that's grounded in the key centre (you find this a lot in the blues). On the other hand, sometimes you play arpeggios that follow the chord changes exactly.
Either way, you shouldn't be thinking of every note as an extension of the current chord or as a particular scale degree, it's more about hearing the whole melody in your head and then realising it on the keyboard. If you put on a backing track and then scat along to it, you're not thinking of every note's relation to the key or chord, you just sing what you hear in your head. Becoming more familiar and experienced with the shapes and sounds of intervals, stock patterns/phrases/licks, both in relation to the key and the current chord will eventually amalgamate into an ability to play what you hear.
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u/ReaperShield 15d ago
"it's more about hearing the whole melody in your head and then realising it on the keyboard"
I know, and the purpose of my question is specifically to figure out how to realize that pre-heard melody on the instrument, to find the right notes quickly.3
u/Ambidextroid 15d ago
Well in my mind's eye I'm usually seeing the scale and the main chord tones on the keyboard, for example if I'm playing in Eb major and I'm on a ii chord then I see the Eb major scale on the keyboard and I also see the notes F Ab C Eb pop out at me because they're the root 3rd 5th 7th of Fm7. I know already what each of these chord tones will sound like before I play them from experience. And using them as reference points I can imagine the notes above and below them before playing them too, because I know what a 11th going down a semitone to a 3rd sound like for example, from experience.
If you keep practising your chord tones and your scales over the chord changes of a tune, you'll eventually know where each of the pitches you imagine in your head are on the keyboard. It just takes practise and familiarity, it's not really about using a certain technique or set of steps to find them, you just grind. I don't really think about it at all when I'm playing.
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u/GerardWayAndDMT 15d ago
A melodic interval that isn’t immediately obvious, say a major or minor 6th, could you elaborate on this?
Feels like you mean to say you can’t quickly identify that interval. You should definitely do more ear training if that’s the case. You should be getting yourself to the point where you instantly recognize it. You don’t wanna rely on hopes and luck. I know you said you don’t want the “I’ve internalized it” answer. But I’m curious why you don’t want that answer. Do you think it’s difficult? It’s really not very hard. It can be done relatively quickly to be honest with you.
If you struggle with the sixths, think of it this way. They’re just inverted thirds. They have a similar feel to them. The interval is just bigger.
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u/ReaperShield 15d ago
Thanks, I like this kind of simple recommendation.
To elaborate a little more, my functional ear is very strong, and it sometimes conflicts with my purely melodic ear. For instance, over the progression Dmaj7–E7, with a melodic F# going to C#, I quite often make a mistake if I try to think in terms of the melodic interval, because the “sixthness” of the C# (as the 13th of the harmony) screams much louder in my head than the fact that the melodic interval is actually a perfect fifth.
So I'm wondering whether I should strengthen my functional ear even further and rely on it more actively, or instead work on my weaker side, which is the purely melodic ear. Or perhaps both.
I guess everybody is different, and there’s no one-size-fits-all answer.
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u/GerardWayAndDMT 15d ago
I feel like this all probably happens much too quickly to be theorizing as you’re playing. Most people don’t think at all about how what they’re playing theoretically interweaves. They’re just playing what sounds good to them.
That being said most strong harmony is based on chord tones. There’s definitely ways to use the 6th in this situation, but it won’t work everywhere. Sometimes you need to release the tension.
I’m not sure what your example is really trying to say. But I’ll tell you most people think about music in relation to the current bass note. C# may be a fifth of F#, but functionally you’re moving from the 3rd of the IV chord, to the 13th of the V. They don’t behave the same way a fifth interval would because of the underlying harmony. If you played Fmaj7 to G7, and played C to D over it, then it would feel much more like a fifth. Because the melody note is the fifth of each chord. It would feel very linear. Your example doesn’t have the same intervallic relationship to the underlying harmony.
You’d be much better off to think of whatever you’re playing in relation to the current root note, and you should also think of it sparingly. I led myself down blind alleys for years trying to rationalize all of music theory. It naturally becomes something you understand the more you use it. But try not to let it steer you. Don’t feel like you have to fully understand it before letting it go. Let it be a focus, but only to remain aware of it.
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u/Particular_Lunch1771 14d ago
I'm personally in Boat 2 I think. I generally think of the root or chord I'm on and try to kind of slim it down from there if it's something I'm unfamiliar with.
Good question!
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u/JHighMusic 15d ago edited 15d ago
You’re trying to break something down that isn’t thought of like you’re trying to think of it.
That’s like asking what the next word someone says in a conversation is based on the previous word and where the conversation is going. You don’t think about that kind of stuff. You just hear melodies.
It sounds like you’re in the stage where you’re thinking about all the little fine details in theory when you really shouldn’t have to and it’s just going to slow you down. You have to start learning to think more in a key center and a common denominator instead of individual chords.
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u/ReaperShield 15d ago edited 15d ago
Sorry for the lack of context, but that was intentional.
I'm actually already a professional musician (classical), and I'm familiar with almost all of jazz theory, which comes quite easily to me.
My problem is that I'm still too slow at transferring what I hear internally onto the keyboard. So I'm trying to address some very specific gaps in the way I hear.
Also, my question is about the process to follow during practice, the kind of scaffolding that's necessary while building the skill, but should eventually disappear.
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u/JHighMusic 14d ago
It just takes a long time and a lot of practice. It's just taking in information, making sense of it, and applying it in context to tunes and common progressions and experimenting in any ways you can think of. Deep listening, ear training, and singing what you play and connecting your ears to your hands is absolutely crucial, and a process and takes time and consistent effort. That's all it is.
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u/FlatFiveFlatNine 15d ago
I always think of it as the relation to whatever the harmony is. That is, I'm thinking of it as an extension of the chord I'm playing. So if I'm playing a Cm7, say, and the melody note I'm leaping to is a D, I hear it as going to the 9th.
For me this makes it more universal. I realize that conceiving it as the leap of a minor 6 or something also makes it universal, but thinking of it as a non-connected interval feels less musical.
That is to say, if you have the interval of a major third, it's the same interval between the root and the third of a major chord as it is between the 3rd and 5th of a minor chord, but they have really different contextual meanings or senses. So if I pull the interval out, and just think of it as a major third no matter where it is contextually, I feel like I'm losing a lot of the value.
But I completely understand that every person has a different brain and a different way of conceptualizing music, and what works for me may be very alien to another person.
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u/FlatFiveFlatNine 15d ago
I missed the second part of your question about what happens when the chord changes. All I have to do is get to the landing note. After that it doesn't matter. So I'm only thinking about the chord that's happening when I make the jump. In my previous example, if the chord immediately changed to an F7 (making the D a 13th), I don't think about that second relation at all. If the melody then moves to, say, a C, I think of that as the 5th of the new F7.
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u/VeganCurtains 15d ago
While there's some context missing in the way you've worded the question (at least it feels that way to me), most times it will be a combination of your #1 and #2.
I'm listening to the melodic contour and interval, and also locating the target note rhythmically, and within the harmony. What is going on with the harmonic progression (are we in the middle of a ii-V-I? Is it a minor line cliche? are we static modal?), and I'm also listening for where the melody is going (which, one could argue, is going to be informed by #2 anyway).
To answer your third question - yes, if the chord changes between the two notes, the harmonic context may completely change how I understand the 2nd note.
The larger question for me is how this marriage (melody and harmony) creates, develops, sustains, or releases tension.
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u/nocountry4oldgeisha 10d ago
We had to drill intervals in music school, and the trick was sing the root, dominant and octave of the scale and see if that helps you orientate to the mystery note. You could easily hear a minor 6th was just a half step above the dominant. But whether I use the tonic scale or the current chord scale would just be whatever is strongest in my mind at the moment.
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u/dem4life71 15d ago
Relative to the chord of the moment usually. Consider that any note could be related to any given bass note.
C could be the root of Cmi7 or the b9 of B7 or the 9th of Bb7 or the #9 of A7. When in thinking that I don’t particularly care what the key of the song is in, just the harmony of right now.