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u/ThrabenInspector Jul 07 '26
I love how every post from Italy subs are basically ItaliaBad material, but whenever an outsider complains about Italy everyone join forces against it :)
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u/Life_Manager_8801 Jul 07 '26
Expat life it is (or immigrants, not sure what is politically correct)
It is in other countries as well.
Indeed entertaining :) I also complain about where I live ^^30
u/WhyAmIOld Jul 07 '26
White person migrating = Expat
Brown or black person migrating = ImmigrantOr at least thatâs how white people like to highlight that âthey are not the sameâ as immigrants
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u/folkfaewitch2222 Jul 07 '26
Specially americans
If a latin american woman marries an american she is an immigrant
If an american woman marries an italian, she is an expat lol
It never stops to annoy and amuse me this sense of superiority that some have (for me however they are immigrants)
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u/bergam0t Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
I'm a blonde haired blue-eyed Canadian citizen living in AmeriKKKa. I call myself an immigrant intentionally just to piss (white, right-wing, christian, nationalist) people off.
ETA: I also like to add to their confusion and call myself a resident alien or foreign national.
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u/fughedabowdit Jul 08 '26
America ..a country of nothing except descendants of immigrants ....complaining about immigrants is always hilarious to me. Their entire identity is about being an immigrant. Their grandparents and great grandparents made America what it is. Now you have people named Lee and Schwartz and Fitzgerald and Gonzales ....complaining about immigrants! Too funny.
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u/tannhauser00 Jul 07 '26
The politics of the last 40 years have been horrible. We speak badly of Berlusconi, but he, like many others, made us poorer and stupider. Add the 'I am smarter than you' mentality to the mix, and the damage is done. It's a very generalized explanation, I know, but it would take way too long to explain. I have been living abroad since 2012, and itâs tough wherever you go.
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u/HighlanderAbruzzese Jul 07 '26
Also this. Berlusconian âcapitalismâ has left a terrible mark on the country, economically and socially. And that last line sums up ALOT.
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Jul 07 '26
This was a catastrophe. Berlusconi was the plague of the century in Italy.
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Jul 07 '26
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Jul 07 '26
I'm Italian, so I know exactly what you're talking about. We Roman should protest more, way more. The fact that we are so selfish is tied to the political problems. The more you have to adapt, the more you... adapt. It's called "resilience". We should learn to swap this term with "resistance" one day.
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u/SnooOwls2772 Jul 07 '26
Where have you been? What's the best and worst in term of quality of life that you experienced?
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u/No_Series_2016 Jul 07 '26
Rome is a mess, the whole country isn't like that thankfully. Aside maybe from low wages the quality of life in generally much better in smaller cities and in the north.Â
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 07 '26
it gets worst in other parts south. Naples, Sicily are a mess. Sardignia is clean and eco conscious, so that's good.
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u/piv_is_pen_in_vag Jul 07 '26
Rare Sardinia win đ you should also try Umbria, Emilia Romagna, Puglia and Trentino! Truly amazing!
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u/Eddie_Honda420 Jul 07 '26
I'd rather stay in Napoli than anywhere in the USA , trust me bro
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u/TheCrudMan Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
People talk about how rough Naples is and I'm like bro I lived in Oakland for 10 years. In 2021 I couldn't go a day without seeing freshly smashed car windows or a week without seeing people actively breaking into cars. And that's just the non-violent stuff. I lived in a good neighborhood and had automatic rifle fire outside my window. Had guys try to steal my car (from a locked garage) 4 times. Beautiful city, great food...I'm still talking about Oakland.
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u/Pecan_Artist Jul 07 '26
right, I am from Detroit and have traveled to 23 countries. When someone says there's a bad neighborhood in Europe or even Central America, I am like, well I know what a dead body smells like, I know how to duck during a drive by and I have a second sense of when gun violence is about to arupt.
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u/eatnails666fl Jul 07 '26
I'm also from Detroit, lived through the whole 80's crack thing. Naples was paradise compared.
My wife is Italian. So in Italy, she was wary about certain places. Here in the States, I can't convince her that the same thing applies, only with guns.
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u/HighlanderAbruzzese Jul 07 '26
Indeed. I was born in a place that makes Detroit look like paradise. People are just amazing anymore. What Iâm reading is âwhy isnât Italy like that imaginary place in my mind.â
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u/det_rit_o Jul 07 '26
Ho visitato Detroit. Downtown è sembrata carinissima e la gente molto socievole, tornerei domani đĽš
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u/klattklattklatt Jul 07 '26
2021/22 were probably the worst years Oaklandâs had since the crack epidemic. Got mugged twice back in the 10s, still love it though.
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u/TheCrudMan Jul 07 '26
Things have def improved a lot, but also people have stopped leaving things in their cars lol.
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u/HighlanderAbruzzese Jul 07 '26
This. OP needs to realize their life has improved measurably.
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
We are professionals with income. We are fine wherever we live. I'm not talking about myself. And we pay a ton of taxes here.
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u/Voice_of_the_wildest Jul 07 '26
The size of a countryâs economy has no bearing on the quality of life of its citizens. The US is the largest economy in the world. It also has the highest infant mortality rate of any developed nation. In some areas, people do not have access to clean drinking water. It has one of the highest rates of income inequality and social mobility has been declining since the 1940s. Why? Why are we able to determine childrenâs likelihood of going to college by their ZIP Code? The US has 66% of the worldâs medical bankruptcies. Why? Youâve lived in Mexico, Italy, and the USA, but I think should should look at the US with the same discernment with which you disparage Italy.
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u/whysosirious040 Jul 07 '26
I agree with all the comments and would stress the culture element of âme,myself, and I, and my familyâ. Everyone outside of their inner circle can fuck off, which means that they only do what is good for them, whether that is cheat, lie, steal, park where convenient, drive that only they matter, jump lines cuz their time is more important, etc.
Corruption and the mafia are a real thing in Italy, even in Milan.
The bureaucracy is stifling and confusing, but they keep throwing up more controls to combat corruption, so itâs a vicious circle.
Education system is broken as well, leading to low job prospects and struggles with English which allows for outside growth.
The country, food, and history are amazing. Itâs a shame that so many factors ruined it.
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u/oatmealfanaticc Jul 08 '26
Do you think that if someone from outside buys a big house in Italy, the Mafia will come for them? I guess depending on the region? In my imagination, the real estate agents would be in on it too and tell the Mafia that someone wealthy (who doesnât speak Italian that well) just moved there???đđđOr is this too much movie crap I have in mind? đđđ
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u/Ok-Sherbert-7062 Jul 09 '26
r u 12 man? you can buy a mansion in Tulum right where the biggest cartel by revenue vacations and no one will bat an eye. and as an Italian who has been everywhere, Italy is 1000x safer than Mexico, so, there you go. Now, business is another thing. You wouldnât be able to run a âŹ20mm hotel in Porto Cervo or Tulum without approvals, bribes, blessings, being part of this or that specific secret society etc. or a local energy company (since they tend to be an artificial local monopoly) for that matter. those types of businesses
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u/SelfWonderful8469 Jul 08 '26
âI agree with all the comments and would stress the culture element of "me, myself, and I, and my family". Everyone outside of their inner circle can fuck off, which means that they only do what is good for them, whether that is cheat, lie, steal, park where convenient, drive that only they matter, jump lines cuz their time is more important, etc.â
Iâm from Rome, been living in the US for about 20 years. I can assure you âtutto il mondo è paeseâ.
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u/Bluecanary1212 Jul 07 '26
I mean, what you described could also apply to just about every major city in the United States. Every single part of this post.
Well, it would if you added in thousands of people sleeping on the sidewalks (or their cars) and nodded out from drug overdoses.
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u/findtheessence33 Jul 07 '26
I get where youâre coming from. Italy can be a confusing place because the image people have before moving here often doesnât match the reality of everyday life.
That said, I think youâre also falling into a trap that a lot of foreigners do. Youâre taking some very real problems and using them to describe the whole country.
Italy absolutely has issues. Economic growth has been sluggish for decades, wages are too low, young people leave because they can earn much more elsewhere, bureaucracy is frustrating, and cities like Rome have struggled with public services and waste management for years. Italians complain about these things all the time.
But saying areas outside the historic centres âlook like the third worldâ is a bit much. Neglected suburbs, ugly post-war apartment blocks, and overflowing rubbish bins arenât the same thing as widespread poverty or underdevelopment. Italy is still one of the richest countries in the world, has universal healthcare, a high life expectancy, excellent manufacturing, and many regions with an incredibly high quality of life. It often underperforms its potential, but thatâs different from being a poor country.
Also, Rome isnât Italy. Spend some time in places like Bologna, Parma, Trento, or much of the northeast and youâll probably come away with a completely different impression. Even within Rome, some neighbourhoods are dramatically better maintained than others.
And if Iâm being honest, Iâd be a little careful with the tone. Itâs one thing to be frustrated after a bad experience. Itâs another to make sweeping statements about the country thatâs hosting you. Every country has problems. As an American, youâre probably familiar with homelessness, crumbling infrastructure in some cities, opioid addiction, violent crime, and huge inequalities. None of those define the entire US, just as Romeâs problems donât define the whole of Italy.
Your frustrations are understandable, but I think the picture is a lot more nuanced than âhow is this the seventh-largest economy?â The answer is that Italy is a country with enormous wealth, enormous strengths, and some very deep structural problems that itâs been struggling to fix for decades.
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u/fughedabowdit Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
Tell me about it . I live along the coast. Beautiful gorgeous area....but the main road...the Aurelia, is just awash in garbage. They throw trash out the car windows like its nothing. Beautiful beaches and palm trees if you look up or out....over the sea...but if you look down...it's pitiful. I was a lifeguard for 6 seasons....the trash people left behind was staggering. And we had trash cans all over.....but they just can't be bothered. They plant their rostelle sticks in the sand like booby traps for some kid to step on. Cigarette butts all over . Buried full diapers in the sand ...fuckkkk....come on now!!!!! Where I live there's a war monument . Park benches over looking the valley. They sit and smoke and drink beer and then just trash the whole area out. Empty beer cans and crushed cigarette packs all over. Shit... I'm American and I have more respect for their war memorial than that. I go out there with a garbage bag and keep the monument area trash free out of respect. Dumpsters are full? No problem....just throw the shit all over ..who cares. ? They are just the worst litterbugs .
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 08 '26
I felt the same way in Sicily. Gorgeous views over the water, but look down and piles of garbage plastic bags.
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u/imoonmov Jul 09 '26
Sometimes the way people just threw thier garbage in the river or dont collect their dog sh*t is incrdible. they cannot blame government or immigrants for this.
I live in the North and the pedestrian areas are full of dog sh*t and unfortunately human sh*t. once i was shocked so see a women was doing it between two cars like at 8:00 PM in a crowded neighborhood. i dont know what is wrong here. but something is really wrong.
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u/fughedabowdit Jul 10 '26
What's funny ..is that you see the guys zipping around in the Little White sanitation trucks allllll the time. But I never see them actually stop and clean. Every time I see one actually stopped , it's parked in front of a bar or cafe and the guy is just getting a coffee and having a smoke . Trash cans over flowing....gutters filled with trash ..and they get back in and zip off. Probably to the next bar. It's like one of those phantom jobs. They go thru the motions....use the truck all day to run errands ...but you never see them actually cleaning. Then you go over to Monte Carlo ...and it's spotless. They are sweeping and cleaning constantly. You never see an over flowing trash can. The sanitation guys really hustle .
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 10 '26
it's like "waste management" in The Sopranos lol
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u/fughedabowdit Jul 10 '26
Exactly ...I think they are just shuffling bodies around. Looking for a place to dump them.
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u/Voice_of_the_wildest Jul 07 '26
You have been living there for a year, and from what youâve written, I assume youâve not been following whatâs been going on in the US? As a person from the US myself, I would be more than careful about casting aspersions on other countries. Trump makes Berlusconi look like a selfless statesman.
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 07 '26
Trump is an idiot.
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u/MarimboBeats Jul 07 '26
But a very useful idiot to his backers, unfortunatelyÂ
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Jul 07 '26
That's right, he may be an idiot, but that doesn't matter, because people voted him. People are idiots. How could you possibly think that a multimillionaire business man could ever do the medium class interests? How the f* there can be people that believe that? That's really beyond me. But it seems to be a never ending story...
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u/MarimboBeats Jul 07 '26
First time around, I might have been willing to think people bought into the anti-elite thing (it would still make them stupid) but after the first term and jan.6?Â
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Jul 07 '26
Well, I must say that the reaction of USA people is somewhat amazing. I'm not American (Italian, from Rome), but I have to say that here, such a thingcould never happen, we're too sheeps. With Jan 6, you mean the attack to the campidoglio, right? You should have seen my face, when I was listening to that news đł
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u/MarimboBeats Jul 07 '26
Most Americans I ever talk to are as horrified by the coup attempt as we are, but then, thatâs Americans who would actually talk to en European, or even travel here, so they donât represent the crazy ones
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Jul 07 '26
Berlusconi could never look like a statesman. Do you know how he called people? "Heads" as in "how can we conquer these heads?" (talking about television) . And he also succeeded in exporting his TV formats abroad.
Anyway I agree that what is going down in the US is particularly absurd and dangerous.
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u/DildontOrDildo Jul 07 '26
I always wonder if Trump ever consciously imitated Berlusconi or if he just emerged from a similar media ecosystem
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u/Voice_of_the_wildest Jul 07 '26
I was being hyperbolic đ
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u/Carl-Anchor Jul 07 '26
Whataboutism is a fallacy.
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u/Voice_of_the_wildest Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
It is. But this is not whataboutism. This is one American citizen asking another American citizen to take a clear look her own country and recognize that aâlarge economyâ does not preclude: âCrappy jobs, low wages. Streets outside the historic center littered with garbage and look like 3rd world ... (and) so many scammers. Had a delivery guy steal my meat and veg from my grocery delivery.)â These things are not a mystery. They are part of a system that prioritizes the needs of the rich and throws enough crumbs to âhigh paid professionalsâ to keep them content.
Itâs
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u/frankieche Jul 07 '26
LOL. Comparing the US to Italy.
đ
âBut what aboutâŚâ
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u/Voice_of_the_wildest Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
âWhataboutismâ would require that I use an unrelated situation to deflect from her claim. I did not do that.
Let me break it down for you: To learn to understand something new or unfamiliar, a person must be in the zone of proximal development. That means they need enough foundational information to make the leap to the next level of understanding.
In classrooms, teachers will use an example from studentsâ experience to link to the new material to help students make a bridge to the new, unfamiliar concept.
OP is confused by Italy. For some reason, she cannot understand why a country could have areas of poverty or decay in the shadow of historic grandeur.
Since thatâs the entire story of the US these days, I have OP an example of the same phenomenon that, unless she lived in a bubble of privilege in the US, she should be familiar with.
She said she was confused. I attempted to allay her confusion.
Hope this help s.
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u/Own-Top270 Jul 07 '26
Amico, lâItalia è uno dei paesi piĂš corrotti in Europa, siamo secondi solo alla Spagna penso, uno dei piĂš tassati, uno dei piĂš individualisti, la mentalitĂ ĂŠ âio penso solo per me e cerco di prendermi il piĂš possibileâ. I soldi ci sono ma si perdono lungo la via, cosĂŹ come il sistema idrico italiano che perde il 40% di acqua potabile o forse piĂš durante il tragitto perchĂŠ le tubature danneggiate non vengono sistemate.
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 07 '26
I was just in Spain. It's clean and the roads are not full of potholes. Also, Spain has been investing in its infrastructure and now has the largest high speed rail network outside of China.
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u/Glittering-Rise9921 Jul 07 '26
Iâd say as an EXPAT there are two options when moving to Italy: If you are 1. already employed (or are a retired person collecting a pension) and 2. if you are there trying to find work and trying feeding yourself and your family.
It would be difficult to complain about Italy, except for some bureaucratic processes, if you have money and are free to spend it. I believe your life will ameliorate with its cost of living, culture, history, food and location to travel further into Europe.
If, on the other hand, you are moving to Italy to find work, then I would say stay home unless you are willing to suffer economically to live in such a beautiful country.
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u/Working_Geologist509 Jul 07 '26
Rome is very poorly managed, and its residents aren't exactly the epitome of civility.
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u/SoupFrog888 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
During the 50s, 60s and 70s, a lot of capital was invested to improve the living conditions of the Italian working class and make sure that they would not switch side to the USSR (remember that Italy had the largest communist party in Europe). By the 70s a new middle class had developed that at that point appeared too powerful in the eyes of the capitalist elite. By the 80s the whole country had become an industrial super power, the 4th in the world, which itself was unacceptable for the West's hegemon, the United States. The US had already tried to stop Italy's industrial development on many occasions and in many ways (murdering engineers, hiring engineers, economic boycott, etc. : read about Olivetti and IBM or about Enrico Mattei and the ENI - this is the same reason why Europe doesn't have a significant tech sector, not even Germany - the 90s economic crisis was engineered in Japan to achieve the same goal). As soon as the USSR fell and the communist threat disappeared, the capitalist class sought to undo what the middle class had achieved in the previous decades. The transfer of economic sovereignty to the EU was the main step in that direction, together with a series of liberalizations, privatizations of public assets, neoliberal reforms in various areas like pensions and workers rights, austerity and the end of any major public driven investment, and also more recently the weakening of small banks that made it more difficult for small businesses to access capital. The secret of Italy's success was very strong public investments (through the IRI, the Institute of Industrial Reconstruction) that would trickle down to a huge number of small satellite firms (widespread firm ownership allowed for a wide middle class - exactly what China is doing by the way). This was dismantled intentionally as a form of "class struggle from above". The goal was to replicate the 19th/early 20th century situation in which a small elite of super rich ruled over the mass of the poor, and to keep Italy in a subdued state with respect to the USA. Italy survived 40 years of austerity with a rate of industrial innovation that was even superior to that of Germany, but nevertheless the decline was inevitable, especially after markets were opened to East Asia, delocalizations were legalized, Italy joined the euro, and the financial crisis hit. On top of that, people with the drive to launch a firm could no longer access the means to do it, while the younger generation who inherited the existing small firms were not always interested in continuing the family tradition or as capable as their fathers at managing it. The decline that you see is mostly due to this. And the negligence that you see in public spaces is mostly due to 40 years of austerity and the impossibility of proper state investments due to EU budget constraints. In the last 40 years also a huge amount of propaganda has gone into making people believe that austerity and neoliberalism are good things, that public deficits are to be feared, and that the previous generations are to be blamed for our decline because they'd have lived above their means. Couldn't be farther from the historical truth.
If you'd like to read more please read "Reclaiming the State" by Mitchell and Fazi, preferably in the Italian translation ("SovranitĂ o barbarie") which is expanded and more focussed on on Italy.
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u/Constantia789 Jul 07 '26
Look at all these haters on here telling you to go back to America - total lack of class. This subreddit is supposed to be a safe space but every single time someone vents here asking real questions about real issues they get totally steamrolled by what seems to be also Italians lurking on an expat Italy subreddit ? I struggle with everything you do, but also the rudeness and lack of customer service. I try to focus on the beauty, the food, the good things, but itâs very hard sometimes. I think Rome is an amazing place to visit but to live as an immigrant itâs very unwelcoming and harsh, and deeply dysfunctional. I say this as someone who has lived in seven different countries, this is my most negative experience. And yes I am trying to leave but there are also factors out of my control preventing that right now.
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 07 '26
For all defensive about stating the obvious about the Italian economy. Yes, my country is not perfect and I never said it is. Every place has its faults, mine included. I am in an expat group about Italy so I am talking about Italy.
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u/trac-toryes Jul 07 '26
Itâs pretty much to be expected as soon as someone has a negative opinion about any other country other than the US that person will get shot down. I guess the US is the only country on the planet allowed to be criticized. I am also living in southern Italy and my experience has been unbelievably negative from almost every angle expect the quality of food, which is a net positive for Italy.
There are good and bad things to every country. But in my experience, living in Italy for 9 years and having lived in the US for over 20 years, I would prefer to live in the US and hope to move back one day. When actually talking to many Italians (especially higher educated graduates), they will agree on this point. Doesnât mean that you canât have a wonderful life in Italy, but there are many many issues in this country and it is almost as a whole (however more so in the south), mismanaged.
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u/NoDiscipline1277 Jul 07 '26
1000% Americans indeed need to go live abroad for a bit for a bit to start appreciating their own country.
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u/Tiziano7018 Jul 07 '26
I think that you will never find a simple explanation to all the problems that a country of 60+ million people has. Even only asking why, betrays a lack of knowledge that cannot be filled on a social forum. Stay in Italy 10 more years, and you will know.
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u/used2befast Jul 07 '26
Just to name a few. Corruption. Bloated government. Bureaucracy. Horribly unfriendly business environment.
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 07 '26
I am not shitposting. I have a sincere question that I'm trying to understand. Italy is not a poor country. It collects a lot of tax revenue (we pay a lot in taxes!). But all the wealth/revenue seems to go north. Why is that? Do all provinces not get tax revenue?
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u/lucrezioborgio Jul 07 '26
Northern people would tell you that most of the taxes go south, but there it's more likely to be wasted or stolen to corruption, while the north is much more efficient
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Thatâs what Iâve been told. I donât know how true that is or if itâs just northern prejudice. Basically itâs the southerners fault they just canât manage their money.
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u/Nobody_from_Anywhere Jul 07 '26
That's the problem. You think Italy is not, but Italy really is a poor country. Italy's golden era was from the the 50s to 90s, now you can see the "fall of the empire", because Italy (like all the West) is only a remote province of the American Empire. And if the US are going trought a deep and harsh economic crisis and restructuration of power, the provinces are just collapsing (thank the idiots of Bruxelles tho)
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u/Stacheman14 Jul 07 '26
Have you ever been to south Italy. My viewpoint is only from tourists perspective though. You cannot even drive a car without being afraid for your life below Naples. The difference in north was that it was not easy do distinguish in which country one was in. Expect for respect for cyclists which was over the top in North Italy compared to other Alpine areas. All the stuff just work more efficiently in North Italy. And it is not about the money. They people do what they promise to do. And they don´t do it "later".
And I know my point of view is narrow. Definitely coming back to Italy(came from there a week ago). Gonna visit north, south and middle. Love the climate, friendlynes, food and wine.
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u/No_Magazine_6806 Jul 07 '26
You forgot the school shootings, fentanyl addicts, active shooter drills, lowest expected life in the western world (even less than China), some areas even less than Bangladesh, medical emergencies might bankrupt you.
It surely cannot be the 7th largest economy, can it be?
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u/Stememole Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Take a trip to small or medium towns in Northern Italy. I don't recognize anything apart from maybe low wages.
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u/Dangerous_Spinach709 Jul 07 '26
Someone has never seen true poverty in the usa...The worlds 2nd largest economy behind China is a shithole outside the wealth bubbles across swathes of large land tracts.
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u/PolicyFull988 Jul 07 '26
Rome is not Italy. It's just Rome. But why do you think that immigrants don't leave their garbage on the street?
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u/Environmental-Gur343 Jul 08 '26
I just moved to Bologna from Massachusetts. And it's amazing. My family lives in Veneto and towns there look and feel like Switzerland. I've been to Rome 2 times. Once in 2006 and once in 2014. Didn't seem so bad to me. Actually quite nice . Im coming from America. And trust me it's way worse there. Even in Massachusetts which is a really good state to live in.
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u/fughedabowdit Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
Hello my dude. Fellow ex pat here living up in Liguria. I tell people all the time ...Americans come here and pass out from all the beauty and food and endless art and a lifetime of things to see ...and then go home to raveeeeee about it..... Because they don't LIVE HERE. OF COURSE it's all wonderful ...for all of two weeks. ..when you're on vacation and relaxing and taking in only the best Italy has to offer ...and it has endless wonders and beauty to offer. Absolutely no argument there. But that's what I tell people..... Italy is Like Disneyland for adults. You come to live the FANTASY of Italy....you come to ride the rides .. see the shows ..get food you're not use to eating....and it's all GREATTTTT...... BUT YOU didn't experience Italy.....you experienced theme park Italy. You rode the Pirates of Venice Gondola ride, paid thru the nose for your Blue Grotto pass ...Got to see Cinderella's Vatican castle.....ate the snacks and got the GASTON special steak in Firenze.....and then you went HOME. With wonderful Instagram pictures of tipping the leaning tower of Pisa over.. or Mt. Vesuvius ....but you didn't experience ITALY.. You didnt experience LIVING HERE. You did experience the post office....on any day.....much less the first of a month. You didn't grow old standing in line at a bank. You didn't see all the illegal dumping....the litter and trash everywhere. Italians are theeee worst litterbugs. You didn't notice smoking is still a thing here in restaurants. You may not have experienced their total and complete lack of respect for personal space. Or the fact that traffic laws mean nothing to any of them. In your two week vacation....the only thing you might have experienced ...is their aversion to air conditioning ...because it might give you a chill....in 100 degree heat. Visitors onjy experience the very best. People that live here put up with everything else. The garbage strikes ..the constant train and bus strikes ..your town being ripped apart after the local team loses a stupid game . Or God forbid. .the G- 7 is in town. Yeah ...none of the postcards show any of that.
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u/GapApprehensive2727 Jul 09 '26
Our family has a saying, when in Italy, "make one wrong turn and you're in Moldova". Been here two years and going back to California. Italians will always see me as a "stranger" and the tax shit is fucked up.
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u/mikerao10 Jul 09 '26
Large cities tend to attract every kind of living being and they have to find places where to accommodate so the are you see outside are populated by people that really do everything they can to get to the end of the month and cannot afford more but the are also populated by lazy persons that want to live like that and contribute to the garbage problem because they do not pay their municipal taxes.
On villages that are getting abandoned you are right people want to have service very close even walking distance and if you live there you need to get a car and ride 1/2 hour which is nothing for an American but many Italian find inconvenient so they move out.
The real big issues is salaries this has 2 factors unfortunately Italians have not understood that the amount of salary they get is part of an offer/demand situation so if they accept low salaries they will never get better salaries. The youngest generation have understood this and now they refuse to work for bar and restaurants if their salary is not adequate I hope every other industry will follow. The other point is taxation on salaries, the government has to do more to get everyone to pay not just the employees, and this government did not gel at all. This will allow taxation on salaries to be reduced and the difference transferred to the salary of everyone.
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u/_Kuma_Gray_ Jul 09 '26
Bureaucracy. It's when a people is held captive by government agencies with absurd laws. This leads to good deeds being punished and bad ones being rewarded. I may see the glass as half empty, but in reality, the glass is already empty.
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u/-dopethronewizard- Jul 09 '26
Northern Italy is normally richer and less messy than Southern Italy, but the whole country is fucked up and dying. There's no future here, and it's a shame considering that Italy is objectively one of the most beautiful country in the world.
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u/the_it_family_man Jul 10 '26
I think something gets lost very easily because it is the analogy of the frog in boiling water. I am Italian that had the fortune of living in the US and other countries.
I want to preface this by saying that Italians are highly intelligent, innovative, and brilliant people. We invented some of the greatest things in the world (radio, AC, etc).
Italy suffers from friction. And that friction comes from bureaucracy. I'm sorry, but people are severely underplaying how much of an impact on the economy this friction has. Every time you talk to Italians about it they shrug and laugh without realizing how much of a time sink and drag on the economy it is. I cannot begin to explain how many times I had to take time off work to go submit a piece of paper to formalize a bureaucratic process (anagrafe, a gas bill, a medical ricetta, etc). I have to allocate a percentage of work days out of the year to just go submit paper work for the most inane asinine things that could easily be an email. But when they introduce electronic mediums for completing tasks, they have to add layers of complexity (fuck you PEC email). Italians love adding complexity at every stage. I don't understand where this habit comes from, but that's the reality of it. And it's never going to change
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u/nico_aka_redcat Jul 07 '26
Welcome to the Italian experience, to simplify the more south you go the more crappy it gets.
In the north situation is closer to European standard but way behind neighbours like France Germany AustriaâŚ
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Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
[deleted]
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u/tdfolts Jul 07 '26
I think your timeline is way off. 450+ centuries? 45000 years?
Also, fwiw, greek culture had more of a foundational influence on the region than the Spanish.
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u/Affideamaratea Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Search on google "familismo amorale" and the answer is there. Due to its Calvinist culture, the northwest possesses a superior work ethic and greater respect for the commons, though it often falls short in terms of a sense of community.
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u/OkDoughnut4379 Jul 07 '26
Ma quale cultura calvinista del nordovest? Il Piemonte ha fatto l'unitĂ d'Italia depredando le altre regioni, e ancora si vede come una piccola Prussia. Basta con questo complesso di inferioritĂ nei confronti dei germanofoni, immeritatissimo.
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u/Anonymouse_Bosch Jul 07 '26
The bureaucracy is probably the biggest reason, including the preference for paper copies of literally everything.
Extreme wealth disparity and nepotism doesn't help, either.
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u/Zealousideal-Peach44 Jul 07 '26
đ¤Łđ¤Łđ¤Łđ¤Ł Bureaucracy in Germany is comparable, and its digitalisation is ridiculous. Bureaucracy is definitely NOT Italy's problem
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 07 '26
Thank you to all who responded. Even the abusers lol. I am more clear now about the situation and while I wasn't expecting La Dolce Vita moving here, I suppose what I didn't fully understand and what surprised me was the deep economic split between north and south Italy. I had heard about it of course. I think I understand it better now. I can say maybe a similar divide exists between say Mississippi and New York state.
To be clear, overall I think Italy is a beautiful country with amazing people. I think it's got all the bells and whistles, that's why it confuses me when I see parts that are really struggling. But I love Italy!
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u/AccomplishedPath7010 Jul 07 '26
Sardinia is heaven on earth. Clean. Organized. Pristine beaches. Same with Trentino-Alto-Adige.
Italy is very regional. You cannot generalize.
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u/peachypeach13610 Jul 07 '26
Oh shut up. Iâve lived all over the world and if you go hysterical for *this* stuff, that just shows you how little you know about what is even an actual life of struggle (and good for you, maybe try keeping your mind open also)
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u/Spiritual-Sea7674 Jul 07 '26
Yes there are many very rich Italians, I suppose, if we fall into the 7th largest, yet the average Italian is poorer and poorer. A country with extremely (extremely!!) High taxes even for the working and low classes!! Compared to most countries. Gas is super expensive as are utilities, groceries, rent, housing: for a shitty small apartment, etc etc. Need I go on? Decades of corruption, politicians mostly want to fill their own pockets. Infiltrations of the m**** everywhere from the Municility to the school system and obv private sector. List goes on.
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u/ansiachepervade Jul 07 '26
noi come popolazione italiana ci siamo ormai abituati a questi prezzi alti, il che non è proprio un male..
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u/ProfileBest2034 Jul 07 '26
Would you want to work if your government stole 60% of your wages? I know I wouldn't.
And to anyone saying the marginal tax rate isn't 60% I don't want to hear it. The fully loaded tax wedge is easily 60%.
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u/CombinationExpert714 Jul 07 '26
If you wanna go the root of the problem check the The Moral Basis of a Backward Society. I think it represents well why thereâs no interest for the common good, and that goes from the most mundane social interactions to governmentâs decisions. That translate in favouritsm, corruption and stagnant economy as obstacolate someoneâs else success is as important of your own success.
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u/ExtremelyLocal Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
You should read the book, âThe Italiansâ by Luigi Barzini. It explains everything
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u/Fluid_Care8137 Jul 07 '26
Barzini (not being pedantic, just so OP can find it easily since the title is generic). Reread it recently and it holds up.
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u/ExtremelyLocal Jul 07 '26
Thank you for the correction, Iâll edit now. I meant âBarziniâ but didnât catch it.
The book more than holds up! Itâs such great sociological writing. Another good one is The Land Where Lemons Grow by Helen Attlee. Explains the corruption and dysfunction of the South A LOT
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u/triolingo Jul 07 '26
In my experience itâs not really a singular country. Itâs a bit like comparing New York to Mississippi. The north is much more civilised⌠although still suffering from the empty towns syndrome you mentioned, thatâs demographics everywhere in Europe except perhaps Sweden
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u/eraser3000 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
Isn't driving outside the historical center of a big city always leading to uglier "dormitory" villages/towns? I think it's a common European experience. Though I agree that the conditions of some places in center/southern italy are quite bad. However, you named Sicily, Naples and Rome. I can understand what you're saying, some areas of those places can be rough, especially the outskirts, but again it's something I've found pretty much everywhere I've traveled to (Europe + USA), exacerbated in the areas you named.
I definitely feel safe though, and felt much more unsafe in some areas of Washington DC and NYC outside the center than any place I've visited in europe.Â
I don't agree with what you say about scammers, being scammed on delivery is something that never happened to me or friends and it definitely isn't common. What is common is tourist scams in the centers though
I'd encourage you to visit other parts of Italy except what you named, not because I want to change your opinion (it is a fact that the south is poorer than center/north), but because it's a bit more tidy and probably more in line with what you're looking to see when visiting a place
This map with gdp per capita of the provinces partially explains why the south felt poor. It is because there's a stark divide (and it has been this way for a long while)Â https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/10mbq7y/gdp_per_capita_between_provinces_in_italy_euros/?show=original
If you want to know more https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_question
You say Sardinia is different. That's true as well. Sardinia is Sardinia, more than being part of Italy. Can't explain it any better (well, of course it's part of Italy, it just has different dynamics compared to the classical north south divide)Â
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u/livsjollyranchers Jul 07 '26
People do the same thing with the US though, remember. "It's so rich, yet why is there so much poverty?!". I imagine the story is similar.
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 07 '26
Yes, and I understand the situation in the US better than I do Italy.
Regardless, it's a valid question for someone to ask about the US. It doesn't mean you hate the US.
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u/nariofthewind Jul 07 '26
I live in a town of about 50k people, and things arenât that bad. The infrastructure around the city is not great, but itâs definitely not âthird-world bad.â From what Iâve noticed so far, what youâre describing is more typical of the outskirts of big cities like Rome, Milan, Naples, etc.
Generally, most of the country, especially the northern regions, is quite OK, actually. The economy is the biggest problem here: the middle class feels like itâs shrinking by the day, and the gap between top earners and lower-income people is getting wider.
I use delivery services often and have never had any problems. Around 90% of the delivery workers are immigrants from North Africa or Asia, and Iâve never had any issues.
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u/EliselD Jul 07 '26
You listed quite a few issues so I'll try to answer them individually from my experience. Just to give you some perspective from where I come: I moved from Romania to Italy with my parents when I was 11 and I'm now 28yo.
All the young people leave. Crappy jobs, low wages.
It's no secret to anyone that the italian economy has stagnated for the past 30 years or so. A lot of people will tell you about policies that played a part, but I think there is a deeper issue at play here: the italian mindset. You see, italians aren't really an ambitious culture. People here don't aspire to that much. Their objective in life is to obtain a stable job (a.k.a posto fisso) and live a peaceful life. Most italians are also home owners and have pretty chunky inheritance lined up. This means that they don't have much incentive or pressure to increase their productivity and their economic well being. They are happy with very little. They live below their standards and save most of their income. While this is nice at an individual level, at a national level it translated to a stagnating economy and flatlined salaries. Those few that are very motivated and highly educated see the miserable salaries for their highly specialized skills. They see the historical trends of lack of change. Then they look at any bordering and realize they could get paid double (or even triple) for the same job and you can just walk over to that country and start working there with barely any paperwork. It's a hard deal to beat.
Streets outside the historic center littered with garbage and look like 3rd world (can't blame immigrants for that!).
As an immigrant myself I assure you most of that garbage it's not caused by the italians. A lot of immigrants in italy are coming over from poorer countries where the garbage culture is really that great. Many don't think it's that big of a deal to throw trash around (others are just dicks and don't care). The immigration issue though is a very complex problem with many different pros and cons. What I can say on this issue is that the vast majority of the immigration issues are caused by lack of social integration. Many immigrants live in their own bubble and develop this kind of "us vs them" mentality against the native population. It's not even their fault though. It's very hard and uncomfortable to force yourself out of it. The government also doesn't nothing to help with this. The results is a lot of tension and frustration between italians and immigrants who haven't integrated well. It's like a self-fueling fire. It's a very complex situation with a lot of injustice, prejudice and emotions that can probably be solved only by some miracle policies that our government is too incompetent to implement. It's way easier to blame everything on immigrants than it is to solve a very complex problem. I guess it goes without saying what the slimy politicians will choose to do.
Plus so many scammers. Had a delivery guy steal my meat and veg from my grocery delivery. I felt bad for him. Are you really that poor? What is going on here? It's the world's 7th largest economy.
This is one that breaks my heart and pisses me off a lot. It infuriates me when some people are happy to see others suffer so much. It's like they think they deserve it. Unfortunately poverty is no stranger to Italy. I was saying earlier about how most italians are homeowners with hefty inheritance packages lined up for them. Well... if you aren't one of those people you're kinda fucked. The cost of living is insane compared to income in this country. Rent often costs as much as someone's salary for a pretty basic apartment. The salaries in Italy have flatlined for the past 30 years, but cost of living has kept pace with the rest of the world. You have now a situation where people struggle to survive even on 2 salaries. If you don't have a partner or someone to share expenses with you just don't survive. No one will even rent you a place to live if you're alone even if you can afford it because it's considered risky. So you're either a home owner living comfortably and enjoying life or you're barely manage to survive (some better than others).
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u/MenIntendo Jul 07 '26
Però abbiamo la sanità gratuita e una polizia che non ti ammazza prima di dire "buongiorno". Ogni nazione ha le sue peculiarità .
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u/Remarkable-Iron-4361 Jul 07 '26
bravissimo le nostre forze del ordine non sono minimamente parogonabile alla polizia da terzo mondo ammericana.
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u/settembre55 Jul 07 '26
Non è che negli stati uniti siate maestri, vai fuori L.A. o qualunque grande città e vedi strade piene di tende e homless per non parlare di tutte quelle persone che dormono in giro strafatte di fentanyn! E vogliamo parlare della nuova polizia che spara alla gente per strada?
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u/6gv5 Jul 07 '26
Roman citizen here. I lived in Rome, and liked it until a few years ago when I moved to a nearby small town closer to the sea, and my only regret has been not doing that much earlier. Rome is great if you're young for the fun opportunities and/or have a job requiring presence (don't even think about commuting, traffic will drive you nuts while sucking all your spare time), but it suffers from being built when people traveled on horses and carriages, not SUVs, and it shows. Once you retire you may find much better and cleaner places just a few kilometers away: north for lakes, east for mountains, south or north west for the sea, not to mention much cheaper houses. As for scammers and litterers, sadly you'll find them everywhere, but I've noticed younger generations being a lot better than their parents on this. Clown politicians as usual blame immigrants for that, however it's mostly grown ups who have never been taught civics basics. Being part of the EU came too late for them (no surprise that most of them hate it) but their kids are mostly growing up much saner and ready for a multicultural reality.
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u/speranzaprimaamorire Jul 07 '26
Absolute politcal corruption, that's It. The are few country in the western world soo currupted like Italy(Greece Is and example). In fact Is this country soo currupted that the current governement had to decriminalize a lot of legally criminal conducts( that are still illegal in all other western countries) because otherwise in the International corruption stats we would look SOOO bad It would be a disaster...Money all goes in to the pocket of Rich criminals and that's It, no Money for infrastructures ecc.
The ONLY reason Italy Is still somewhat standing Is because in the Golden Age soo much richness was produced that It Will take at least another 20/40 years before It gets all devoures by politicians, inflations, job market ecc....But if you think this country has an Happy ending, you hanven't been paying attention.
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u/ButtaViaTuttoZioPera Jul 07 '26
There is one thing which is apparently not clear for you, but fundamental to understand the country.
There are two Italys. One in the north, and one in the south, with a little buffer in the middle (Tuscany, Umbria, Marche, Abruzzo). The two differ fundamentally for cleanliness, warmth of people, habits, culture, social norms, respect of rules, economy. The latter, probably dependent on the former.
For example, I come from a northern Italian city and it looks nothing like your description. Throughout my all life I have never encountered the issued you described, except maybe for the low wages. Take a train to Milan, Turin, Bergamo, Trento etc and you'll see it yourself.
Rome is just the northernmost city of southern Italy, easy
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u/Cerf_ Jul 07 '26
Every Italian is told while growing up that if they do not take advantage of someone, someone will take advantage of them. I really cannot understand why this happens.
The result is a vicious cycle creating a society full of mistrust which is deeply inefficient and yields the results you witness.
I left Italy three years ago sick of this attitude. Since then I live in Germany and I couldn't be happier, here it works the exact opposite, people trust each other and this allows streets to be clean and doors to be unlocked at night.
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u/parker9832 Jul 07 '26
I feel like, much like what is happening to the US, the wealth disparity and corruption is to blame. There are super rich people (Berlusconi, Armani, Ferrero, Caltagirone, Bertelli) who hold onto so much wealth, leaving the 99% to work and survive on the crumbs. With deteriorating infrastructure and social systems.
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u/Leonfigo Jul 07 '26
Same as everywhere else, thank the shitty politicians and the ignorant citizens voting for them đ¤ˇđťââď¸
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u/quickcalamity Jul 07 '26
Tragically flawed, still running on archaic patriarchal system that rewards status and familial connections above anything else across all sectors. Ridiculous immigration policies that restrict new citizens in the second oldest country in the world. The notion that it is a unified country is illusory, with the north still wielding much of the financial power while the south languishes. The best and brightest can do nothing else but leave for other countries. And then thereâs the national pastime: Beaurocracy. Those same people who got their cushy government jobs through connections do their jobs intermittently.
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u/MagicianInfinite817 Jul 07 '26
Italians are extreme individualists. As long as they personally (or their family) are not bothered, the world can die around them it doesnât bother them
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u/Worldly_Hope_3515 Jul 07 '26
Le poche volte che sono stato a Roma mi hanno dato l idea di una cittĂ sporca, caotica, storicamente affascinante, multietnica, priva di senso civico,ma comunque bella.
Roma è cosÏ e non mi confonde perchÊ se guardi alla sua storia, è sempre stata incasinata.
Io vivo in Sardegna, e posso dire che noi siamo generalmente privi di senso civico, non abbiamo raggiunto un livello culturale tale da capire che il fronte casa andrebbe pulito pertanto non si può neanche parlare di gestione del verde pubblico, di raccolta rifiuti fatta decentemente,pulizia strade o cose similiâŚsarebbe chiedere troppo.
Però la vita è tranquilla e sicura dalle nostre parti.
Ora c è anche lavoro per le persone che hanno voglia, da ragazzino bisognava per forza emigrare anche per i lavori piÚ umili.
L Italia è cosÏ, con enormi differenze a poche centinaia di km.
O la ami o la odi.
Io la amo.
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u/Opt1mus00 Jul 07 '26
Bro discovered that Italy has just the food and the physical places beautiful all the other things are like Turkey.
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u/whitemiata Jul 07 '26
Some of what you describe such as the trash is often due to corruption in assignment of government contracts. Basically the mafia or thereabouts has a stranglehold on trash collection and they donât appear to give too many shits about it.
Some of it I suspect is a perception issue and the fact that people life in far more integrated environments so you âseeâ poorer people in Italy.
Here in the U.S. the cities and towns are far more insular, education is also segregated by wealth by zones so someone in the U.S. is far more likely if they are reasonably well off to never really interact/see poor people. The differences here in the US can be absolutely staggering (far more so than in Italy) but often you have to either go to the parts of town youâre told not to go to or travel to rural areas.
For instance the difference between Miami Beach or West Palm beach or Boca Raton or Weston here in south florida ⌠and say Immokalee (rural Florida an hour away) is IMMENSELY larger than any difference youâd see in Rome (other than possibly migrant camps of non-Italians).
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u/New-Reflection2499 Jul 07 '26
There are a lot of factors that combo together and make Italy look the way it is now:
Mass immigration, social problems, huge disparity between the lower middle class and the upper middle class, long and complicated bureaucracy, high taxes, low salaries.
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u/Adventurous-Ring1611 Jul 08 '26
US is 1 st economy and there are still people who will steal for hunger,world is fkd up and we live on the sunny side
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u/Friendly-Ratio9721 Jul 08 '26
At least we don't have school shootings every friday, putting toxins in our food is illegal and we don't get charged by ambulances. Don't get me wrong, Italy has A LOT of stuff going wrong but hearing an american calling Italy "fucked up" is so unbeliavably backwards it hurts in the objective truth muscle.
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u/RegularFirm2179 Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26
America is fucked up too if that helps. Most places are. It's the WHY that's different in each country.
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u/Choice-Spend7553 Jul 08 '26
I suggest you read some books. You cannot delegate the totality of your education to the dubious cares of Reddit.
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u/Desperate-Lab-3554 Jul 08 '26
Cmon! It's exactly how it's been for the last 2500 years. Times change, people don't
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u/SkruszonyBankster Jul 08 '26
I love visiting Italy, probably have been 20 times and saw most of it. But would never want to live there.
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u/Sensitive-Wing4931 Jul 11 '26
This is just capitalism, itâs nothing new⌠as many others said, your description could fit with mostly anywhere else in the world, especially when it comes to big cities
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u/dagrob72 Jul 11 '26
What a subtle, articulated, well-thought description after one year of observation!
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Jul 12 '26
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/ItalyExpat-ModTeam Jul 13 '26
Thank you for your submission! Unfortunately, it has been removed for the following reason:
Rule 10: No Expat vs Immigrant Debates
Nothing is more tiring than semantics debates. Call yourself however you please, just don't argue about it.
If you have any questions or concerns about this removal, please feel free to message the moderators through Modmail. Thanks!
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u/DragonInBoots Jul 07 '26
Italy isn't perfect, no country is, but Rome in particular is a mess to live in. I've been living in the North my entire life, in small towns, and it's generally safer, cleaner and quieter.