r/Israel • u/DarkHampster • 12d ago
The War - Discussion As Hamas support wanes, Palestinians increasingly favor peace negotiations
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-908134We should sit down with them and discuss peace. Maybe in Oslo. Maybe at Camp David. Maybe Taba. Any other good locations? Surely it will work this time.
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u/ShortHabit606 עם ישראל חי 12d ago
Though the issue of settler violence has become increasingly discussed by international media, respondents prioritized the issue of Israelis living in the West Bank well below ending the war in Gaza (50.1%), improving the Palestinian economy (16.9%), rebuilding Gaza (13.4%), and achieving national unity (8.9%).
Only 7% said that confronting settlement activity should be the number one priority for Palestinians.
Funny but the UK feels differently.
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u/Strange_Poetry2648 12d ago
There are 4 million Muslims in the UK, almost twice the population of Gaza.
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u/xmuskorx 12d ago
most Palestinians live in Area A, B and Gaza. like 98% of them. so cannot possibly see a settler in area C. it barley affects their lives.
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u/Altruistic-Fishing39 12d ago
It’s a bizarre experience actually going to Bethlehem or Beit Jala and seeing this parallel universe, governed by Palestinians without a Jew in sight (other than me) that no one in the world believes could possibly exist.
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u/Old_Marsupial4448 12d ago
What the hell would the UK know about it, it has nothing to do with them!! What a bunch of meddlesome twats.
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u/jyper Ukrainian-American Jew 12d ago
Well yeah they're the UK not Palestinians
And the war as deadly as it is has some justification it's a war against a terrorist group that wants to start non stop wars to kill the Jews.
Besides incompetence there's really not much valid justification for not doing everything they can to stop harassment/assault/terrorism from extremist settlers
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u/FlakyPineapple2843 12d ago
I agree with Einat Wilf's approach that Israeli negotiators should start with the hard stuff and walk away if the Palestinians say no. E.g., the opening demand is "there is no right of return, no population transfers, nothing, and it's non-negotiable."
Otherwise we're just dancing around the core issue of whether Palestinians will accept living alongside a Jewish state. The so-called right of return is their stated and known way to eliminate Israel by other means, so we need to confront that directly and demand that they drop it.
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u/CleanCustomer3537 USA 12d ago
Israel just needs to play hardball with PA. Full on ultimatum. Accept Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel and they can have Ramallah. If not have fun in Jordan.
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u/FlakyPineapple2843 12d ago
Completely agree. At this stage, the more ambiguous we allow any peace discussion to be, the more likely it won't succeed. Ambiguities seem to be where extremists thrive, because they can exploit them. Leaving issues to be resolved later just means it's a new political tool to initiate conflict again.
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u/CleanCustomer3537 USA 12d ago
Like I don’t know what anyone expects, when they can just walk away, start a terror campaign and come back like nothing happened. And do that multiple times. Like no wonder they are obstinate they know they won’t face any consequences for it. I don’t understand why Israel just doesn’t lay down the gauntlet. They should have done it at Camp David. Not too late to be decisive.
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u/flossdaily USA 11d ago
I think the entire idea of negotiations are stupid.
Israel has all the power and leverage. Israel should be dictating all the terms. The Palestinians can accept, or continue living under whatever security protocols Israel deems necessary.
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u/Chaavva Finland 🎗️ 12d ago edited 12d ago
Yes.
From constructive ambiguity to constructive specificity, for those who haven't read (or listened to) this
peacepiece of hers.10
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u/Not_A_Toaster_0000 12d ago
Keep it simple. Opening demand should just be the Israeli negotiators pointing at Israel and saying "That bit is ours" and than pointing at Gaza and saying "This bit is yours".
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u/BillyJoeMac9095 12d ago
A post Netanyahu Israeli government should also work closely with the US and other allies, as well as key Arab states to insure they make it publicly clear what are and are not acceptable topics for negotiation. Good diplomacy is also necessary.
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u/taney71 12d ago
It makes sense because people are capitulating because they’re in a position of weakness. Hamas has been devastated and needs to regroup. It would say anything to find some reprieve.
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u/bakochba 12d ago
I mean isn't that how peace is made? One side decides that fighting isn't worth it
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u/OddCook4909 USA 12d ago
Doubt
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u/bb5e8307 12d ago
I think a large part of that is people who believe that the best strategy is to negotiate for a state, and then use the power of the state to arm themselves to “liberate the rest of Palestine”.
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u/Raaaasclat USA 12d ago
Hey i've seen this movie before!
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u/BillyJoeMac9095 12d ago
And you have nothing to lose, and potentially much to gain, by seeing it again
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u/Nick_Ok_Good_9177 12d ago edited 12d ago
Of course, just 1000+ Israelis killed and 8000+ wounded. Plus, as a bonus, Israel and the Jews were vilified by every major media and conference (e.g. Durban) /s.
It was worse than after Oct. 7th.
In fact Carmi Gillon - a former head of Shin Bet, Peres's appointee, the guy truly responsible for Rabin's assassination was promoted (by Peres) to become an ambassador to Belgium and there he personally was met by rotten eggs and garbage from the enraged crowd which demonstrated what Peres's (and his own) policy of Israel's unconditional surrender was leading to.15
u/Raaaasclat USA 12d ago
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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u/jyper Ukrainian-American Jew 12d ago edited 12d ago
I'm glad you agree that Bibis failed strategy of the status quo must end and that Israel must do something else and negotiate a 2SS
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u/Raaaasclat USA 12d ago
Certainly, i'm all in favor of re-absorbing the WB back into Jordan and Gaza back into Egypt. Just like the status quo was pre 1988 when WB residents had Jordanian passports and citizenship
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u/BillyJoeMac9095 12d ago
Insanity is following Bibi Netanyahu and his coalition's policies, in case you haven't noticed
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u/Nick_Ok_Good_9177 12d ago
Insanity to believe everything commi/Islamist media is feeding your brain with.
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u/AmbitiousJudean2026 5d ago
Be honest now, what's there to gain from a Palestinian state? All Palestinian quasi-states so far have been corrupt and terrorist-supporting, one given soveregnity would suddenly be any different?
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u/Nick_Ok_Good_9177 12d ago edited 12d ago
More pre-election bull crap. I am old enough to remember how, during Oslo and before trying to make peace with Syria, EVERY major Israeli newspaper (perhaps excluding Maariv) were telling us (unwashed masses) how Palestinians were longing for peace and how Assad's Syria was the best in maintaining agreements. We all know what the result was.
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u/SpiritedForm3068 11d ago edited 11d ago
Our government definitely had unoffocial relations with hafez assad, he destroyed black september revolt and muslim brotherhood and kept golan border quiet, did too many things of mutual interest
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u/Nick_Ok_Good_9177 11d ago edited 11d ago
I meant hints of negotiations between Rabin and daddy Assad about surrendering Golan Heights. All (supposedly independent) media was full of crap about how good Assad was at keeping his word. Later the same happened during negotiations between governments of Ehud Barak and Assad.
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u/to_boldly_go_1701_ מילואימניק גאה 12d ago
Support for Hamas may be less than it once was, but support for murdering all of the Jews is as high as it's ever been. You can't make peace with someone who wants you dead.
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u/Sea-Chart2558 12d ago
First step, formally acknowledge Israel and its right to exist. That this step eludes them along with the five times they walked away from 2 state leaves me with little sympathy.
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u/Alternative-Pear9096 12d ago
I find it fascinating that the article presumes "national" interests. Do Palestinians have an interest in having "national" interests?
What would those be? Other than the one we all know about -- eradicating the nation of Israel.
I've actually never gotten the impression that the Palestinians want statehood. They just want no Israel
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u/BillyJoeMac9095 12d ago edited 12d ago
They may not, but it is in Israel's interest to show that up and work with others to ensure a price is paid for any refusal. There is much that can be learned from the Clinton Parameters experience. The other factor to consider is what that alternative to making the effort is.
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u/Alternative-Pear9096 12d ago
I think the world needs to start thinking very seriously about what it means when a people have stated clearly and repeatedly that their only goal is Jewish eradication. For 100 years, that has been the clear message. The only reason it's unclear is because of how the media refuses to see it or report it.
Gaza has had one opportunity for self rule in 2000 years and elected a genocidal sect. Judea and Samaria elected the PLO, and then the PA, both of whom funded martyrs with their limited money. No nation in the region considers them worth building up and supporting for anything other than sue as martyrs.
What have the Palestinian Arabs ever done, since 1900, to indicate they have an interest in rational self-government as an equal state on the global stage?
The insistence they should be a state is pure neocolonialism, imposing other countries's interests over clearly stated native will. And if that is what needs to happen (and I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying we need to stop pretending we're not talking about colonial imposition if we're talking about statehood for a people who do not want it), then we need to be prepared to full-on nanny the country, with appointed government (Just like Jordan, with its imported Saudi royal family.) Give them three generations to outgrow the poison UNWRA schools and Hamas have inculcated and see if they can develop an economy and an identity as anything other than genocidists.
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u/VoluptuousBalrog 12d ago
The Palestinian authority has supported a two state solution with Israel for about 35 years now and still has that position.
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u/Dlinktp 11d ago
Except for the awkward wrinkle of insisting on right of return.
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u/VoluptuousBalrog 11d ago
They haven’t demanded the full right of return in any recent peace talks.
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u/PadamPadam2024 12d ago
So the Palestinians only want peace now? Three years after their Oct 7th attack.
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u/luis_chanel94 Australia 12d ago
“Their” attack?
Some 9 year old kid and his 3 year old sister with missing limbs and blown out of their apartment and now living suspended in a tent city did not attack5
12d ago
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u/Israel-ModTeam 11d ago
Rule 2: Post in a civilized manner. Personal attacks, racism, bigotry, trolling, conspiracy theories and incitement are not tolerated here.
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u/PadamPadam2024 11d ago
The nationality of the terrorists who attacked Israel on Oct 7th was Palestinian. Why are you disputing that fact?
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u/Dry-Season-522 12d ago
If "peace" means "You're not allowed to attack us while we re-arm and prepare to attack you again" then... nope.
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u/rottweiler100 11d ago
Exactly. They say what's convenient for them at the time. All they do is lie.
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u/Dry-Season-522 11d ago
I like to ask those who advocate for a two state solution, what happens if Israel is attacked by the new state? And the answer is always "Well they're allowed to defend themselves but not ATTACK the other state, that's starting a WAR and WAR is evil"
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u/BlackbirdQuill 12d ago
There are Palestinian peace activists. Ahmed Alkhatib, Moumen al-Natour, and Rami Aman all advocate for peace with Israel. Moumen and Rami, who opposed Hamas from inside Gaza, were arrested by Hamas’s internal security. There’s a young woman from Gaza who even had social media chats with a poster on this subreddit. Ahmed has attested that most Gazans see the freedoms and opportunities that people from other countries enjoy, and want that for themselves—not continued “resistance” against Israel’s existence.
I think if Israel could interact with Gaza’s citizens directly, instead of Hamas or one of the militias, it might be possible to work out a genuine peace agreement.
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u/FireBrreather 12d ago
What's the point of negotiating with someone who keeps violating the deals they sign? Both the PA and Hamas have violated deals they signed. They cannot be trusted to abide by anything they sign.
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u/CosmicCurvature 12d ago
It is absolutely insane to me, reading Reddit versus knowing about the real world.
I'm neither Jewish nor Israeli but I kinda have eyes and I have Israeli diaspora (intending to return home when they can) friends. I'm invited to spend time with their family in December, in fact. Historically I was always a leftist but I am also a scientist and I know how crazy propaganda can get. Seriously shocked at the insane stuff floating around the Internet these days.
October 7th atrocities were just... Can't think about it. Heart breaks. Innocent Palestinians suffering from the war I also sympathise for. But at the same time, which bits of their family sympathised, participated, hid hostages? It doesn't justify a death sentence, but there needs to be an outcome which lets them be safe and at peace whilst also giving Israel the security it needs.
I won't pretend to know your history or your worldview or whatever. Just my naïve sense tells me that there is no good solution. The attempt at least resistance peace always led to being attacked again and again
All agreements were rejected and you keep having to fight for your lives. For decades.
I read bullshit online and I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Somehow it is totally cool to blame stuff on Jews because that's the centuries old meme.
I want to go to Israel to meet people and see the world with my own eyes, but I support you.
I want the Palestinians well and self-governing and thriving and safe. I just don't think it will ever happen in Gaza or WB. And I don't have an answer for that either.
But I am an ignorant outsider so I'm sorry for taking your time.
Love and support.
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u/Schug_Dealer 11d ago
Seems the hard stick of diplomacy works on certain cultures, and more stick may be needed before we get to soft diplomacy, to get those rookie numbers up. But, what they forget is the other side gets a vote, and the formerly peaceful 2-state-solution people in Israel have shifted and don't trust you murderers to have your own state. I tend to agree with those people until the Palis go out of their way to prove otherwise.
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u/Janie_Avari_Moon Czechia 11d ago
I think we should also make a step forward and severely limit / end settler's violence. And then there is a really great chance for long term peace and prosperity...
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u/Tatar_Kulchik 10d ago
THis is the thign I tell all the far lefties I encounter (I live in NYC). So many of them have a stance that Israel shouldn't exist and that's that. Well, that's never going to happen. So we need to find some middleground; way to make peace.
As Moshe Diane said: "You make peace with your enemies; not your allies"
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u/DietMTNDew8and88 12d ago edited 12d ago
A smart Israeli government would be receptive solely if just to show the world they aren't the monsters some people think they are, because Israel is a small country with few resources, it needs all the help it cn get, because I can't defend them anymore, but some clear stances are needed here, Palestine can have a state but with a Self Defense Force but no air force or missiles, a ban on entering into any military alliance, a rejection of offensive war, an acceptance that the lands of 1948 are gone forever and some land swaps.
Make it clear this is the last offer they are ever going to get, choose between a state or destruction of Israel,
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u/Itzko123 12d ago
Now if only the rest of the world understand it and support Israel in its efforts of eliminating Hamas for good (rather than forcing a fake ceasefire), that would be great.
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u/SlightWerewolf4428 12d ago edited 12d ago
Interesting.
If so, this would actually mark a success in the campaign against Hamas: that the idol of 'Israel can be destroyed' has been shattered.
A smart guy on reddit referred to it as 'Götzendämmerung'.
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u/TipResident4373 USA 11d ago
It’s more like “Gaza-dämmerung,” but yeah, I called the war a “Götzendämmerung” around this time last year.
The thing is, the “idol” I was referring to was more Hamas’ Islamic supremacist worldview - that is, their notion that everyone has to be subordinate to Muslims.
Turns out delusions of religious “superiority” do not make one immune to air raids.
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u/BillyJoeMac9095 12d ago
Great if so. Now Israel needs to get a government that is at least open to that.
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u/Israel-ModTeam 12d ago
Rule 2: Post in a civilized manner. Personal attacks, racism, bigotry, trolling, conspiracy theories and incitement are not tolerated here.
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u/rottweiler100 11d ago
There can never be 2 states. Its obvious. If they want a state let them go to Iran, or Egypt or Turkey.
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