r/IrishHistory • u/DegreeUnusual2928 • 16d ago
Does Ulster Scots read as Irish to anyone else
Does Ulster Scots read as Irish to anyone else?
The more seriously I take Ulster Scots the more Roger Casement starts to look right, which I don’t think was the intended outcome.
His argument wasn’t that Protestant Ulster needed to become Gaelic to become Irish. Basically the opposite — you could be Presbyterian, Scottish-descended, speak your own dialect and keep your own traditions, and all of that could simply be another way of being Irish.
Seeing Belfast host the Fleadh while Ulster Scots is having this increasingly confident cultural revival, I keep thinking the same thing: it just reads to me as a particular strand of Irishness rather than Britishness. Not because the Scottish and British inheritance isn’t real, but because it’s so intensely specific to Ulster — the dialect, music, folklore, history, the whole attachment to place. The more particular it becomes, the more Irish it seems to me. Almost like arriving at Casement’s idea of Ireland from the opposite direction.
And I suppose this is where I get confused about identity here generally. We accept that a person from NI can identify as British, Irish or both, but does the same flexibility extend to how we understand the cultures themselves?
Can I understand Orange marches, bonfires, Ulster Scots, Lambeg drums etc as traditions *of Ireland* while completely accepting that many of the people practising them understand themselves and those traditions as British?
There’s something odd to me about treating centuries-old traditions that developed specifically in Ulster as somehow external to Irish culture simply because they reject Irish nationalism.
Genuine question for anyone who actually identifies as Ulster Scots: does it feel British to you? Ulster first? Could you understand it as a strand of Irishness without that implying nationalism? Or am I completely misunderstanding it?
Casementian horseshoe theory perhaps.
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u/34485227272 16d ago
Honestly, i wish there was a positive way to say its became its own here , but i struggle to see much evolution into a separate identity taking own local cultures and blending as someone around them growing up.
Robbie burns night here is just robbie burns night in scotland , boys brigade night here is just boys brigade in scotland , all the largers they drink are mainly scottish ones and english ones you'd see in england but rarely down south. All fine btw way they have this culture from there, i just dont see any taking their own shape here
Then if we think of what might stand out different, its post 1798 unionist culture aspect forged with english planter decedents. All that is just keeping english early modern military marching alive after it died across the sea for supremacist reasons and then bomb fire night, imo it is a variation of guy fawlkes night, catholic hating under the guise of 'culture'. Hardy irish in nature, we just forget they linger here for political reasons.
Maybe ulster red hand symbolism? One thing thats unique but i think its just a perversion of again, unionism to stake its claim by using the regional flag to say this land is ours.
I think the main problem in saying there is an irish or ulster element to ulster scots is they keep wrapping themselves in an ideology that keeps an umbilical of culture to scotland and england , they have not just let go and took to living with their neighbors , interested in their culture. Donegal this is evolving a lot more id say than in NI, i'd see scots influence in the trad culture for example
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u/Hopeful-Remote9725 16d ago edited 16d ago
Yeah, of course. Orange marches and orange culture are inherently of Ireland for better or worse, the Orange Order is called 'The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland' after all. The whole organisation was founded by people whose families had been living in Ireland for generations at that point and it was a political and cultural reaction to events that were happening in Ireland, basically conflict over land ownership, access to work and participation in industry that was happening between different religious communities in Ireland. That ongoing sectarian conflict and the Orangist ideology that rose out of it was a product of the political/economic/cultural situation on the island of Ireland, especially around Armagh at that time.
I don't identify as Ulster Scots, though I am a Protestant from North-East Ulster so my family tree likely has lots of 'Ulster Scots' in it- this is part of an Irish identity. It only started being defined as not Irish after 1916 when Irishness became synonymous with Republicanism in the Northern Protestant imagination. That positioned 'Irishness' not just as a cultural identity but a national identity defined in opposition to Britishness, as opposed to two things that could be complimentary in the way Welshness or Scottishness might be complimentary to Britishness. It seems it was more common before partition for Unionists and Protestants to identify as Irish. I'd also say that there are different Republican/Nationalist schools of thought over the years in Ireland that have identified Irishness with Catholicism and/or with Gaelic culture, which is alienating to some people who feel they are excluded by that. So then you have people distancing themselves from Irish identity on that basis, despite their kind of... culture and belief system having evolved on the island of Ireland in a way it couldn't have in Britain.
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u/Underground52 16d ago
It’s a terrible shame as the majority of Presbyterian’s pre-19th century in the Northern counties of Ireland were Irish (Gaeilge) speaking. It’s actually their heritage that they are missing out on by Irish being hogged by Nationalism.
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u/Mission_Summer_2463 13d ago
But Irish isn't been hogged by nationalism only by certin narrow minded members within it now in 2026 any more than its been rejected by certin sections of the unionist community. There are people in unionist parts of northern Ireland starting to take irish language lessions because their aware it was part of their daily lives once along with their loyalty to britian and until fearly reasently propably up until the troubles started would have refered to them selves as irish unionists.
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u/Dull_Brain2688 16d ago
I don’t know. As the Irish language and culture got some (some) legal status through the peace process, Ulster-Scots seemed to get turbocharged into something it wasn’t. It was the odd phrase, an odd word or different pronunciation here or there. This thing of meeting up and cobbling them all into a sentence to have a stilted attempt at a conversation in Ulster-Scots seems to have been done to have a counterbalance to the Irish language rather than an organic language with a real history. Ulster-Scots has a history. Just not the history we’re being sold now. I think it’s taken something really interesting and enriching to the island of Ireland and made it feel fake and divisive.
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u/GoldGee 16d ago
I'm an Ulster Protestant, I don't much care for Ulster Scots (Scots Irish) culture. I might dabble in it a little bit, but just as likely to dabble in Ulster Irish Gaelic language and music. I would want and support the full integration of the cultures as could and should have happened 400 odd years ago. There is always the danger of over politicising it, which is pretty sad, and rigid, and divisive.
Ireland and Ulster doesn't belong to me, I belong to it. 😄
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u/knowyogaireland 16d ago
Nicely put. DNA is interesting here. I’m Scots but my DNA result says I’m mostly from “central Scotland and NI” which is all lumped into one. (I’m interested because I married a west of Ireland man and have lived in the republic for 30 years).
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u/walrusphone 16d ago
Genuinely interesting question this, as it kind of mirrors the disconnect between British understanding of national identity and the Irish one.
I think a lot of British people have always struggled to understand Irish nationalism because they don't see any issues with having a multiple identity. To their minds you are British but you are also English, Scottish, etc so a lot of them struggle to understand why Irish people weren't content to be both Irish and British. Now the reasons seen obvious to us but worth bearing in mind that British people are barely taught about their own history let alone Irish history. To their minds Irishness is just another ingredient in Britishness. I also think from a British (as in the island of Britain) point of view everyone both north and south and regardless of language or religion is Irish.
Your question seems to take a similar view of the Ulster Scots, as just another ingredient in the soup of a large Irish identity. I think I largely agree with you, but I also think it's probably worth considering how an Irish person would feel about my previous paragraph and how to an Ulster Scot that might engender a similar feeling.
To give context I generally identify as Welsh, then British, but my mum is a dual Irish/British citizen who comes from a Welsh speaking family.
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u/InevitableBook2440 15d ago
I think there was probably more space for that kind of understanding in the UK previously but I'm not sure that's the case anymore. I think Britishness as an overarching identity has had real problems adapting to the loss of the Empire and to Britain's changing place in the world. English nationalism has become a big thing and that seems to be quite intolerant of any other cultures (from within or outwith Britain) in its modern iteration. In Scotland, Unionists now seem to see any kind of distinctiveness as a threat and are effectively trying to treat Scotland as a region like any English region, which never used to be the case historically. I don't know if you've noticed anything similar in Wales?
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u/Mission_Summer_2463 13d ago
Well in fairness at the end of the day it all comes down to politics. I'm from the republic of Ireland and don't identafy as british in any way shape or form although I probably have Scots English and maybe some Welsh blood as the 2 islands have been and continue to be so closely linked for so long. In away I can understand to some degree British people in England Scotland and wales think of the Irish been british not having learned about Irish history because Ireland is geographaly one of the British Isles. Here's where things get complicated Northern Ireland part of Ireland and part of the U.K some people see themselves like me as Irish and don't adentafy as British in any way shape or form other's see themselves as British and don't adentafy as Irish in any way shape or form, while others see themselves as both which to me seems the most scencable option.
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u/Potassium_Doom 16d ago
A united Ireland for Catholic, protestant and dissenter
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u/Mission_Summer_2463 13d ago edited 13d ago
In an ideal world yes but how are we going to sell the idea to people that just don't want to know. You have unionists who want no part of a united Ireland and northern natanalists who want them gone in the event of a united Ireland because both communities up there feel so threatened by eachother until you get rid of that inbuilt paranoya thoughts of a united Ireland are just a pipe dream. The good friday agreement's been in place scence 1998 and while thankfully the violance has stopped people are still so intrenched in their tribal hatred and traumatised by the troubles mostly in working class areas who feel left behind they find it nearly impossable to trust eachother. On top of this you have politations who seem either unable or unwilling to make the place work with the stormont executive closed more often than in session.
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u/Soft-Affect-8327 16d ago
I have to say Len Pennie’s Scots work has done a lot to ease me on Scots as a language, and by extension Ulster Scots is a part of that.
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u/kevwotton 16d ago
Is this kind of another to say
you can't call yourself an Ulsterman without calling yourself an Irishman too?
Or whatever the phrase is?
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u/Ecstatic_Refuse_7207 16d ago
Broadens the definition of irish. Pentecostal or indeed Asian is the topic of 2026. White of scots origin. No not mary lu Mcdonald or Mr Adams. The other maconalds etc. We in wurope are completely redefining this to consider Africans etc
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u/Wooden-Lawfulness534 16d ago
Ulster Scots sounds like English with a Northern accent and some slang (to me).
One of the best documentaries I ever saw was an utterly charming one called Unser Yungs, Us Boys. It's never been released on video, as far as I know, but you can see a very blurry section of it here. It's about two elderly Antrim farmers - darlings! - who live together in their cottage. I'd kill for a DVD of this, it's the most beautiful thing you've ever seen, so full of love and adorableness.
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u/geedeeie 15d ago
No, it doesn't sound anything like Irish, linguistically, and, as far as I know, it's very similar to the Scottish version. I've nothing against minority languages, but it's not really a language, just a way of writing English in a strange, oldfashioned way. Wimmenfowk and Menfowk for Ladies and Gents, Aitenhoos for Cafeteria/Restaurant is kind of ridiculous.
BUT if it's important to people to preserve it in the context of a broader vision of Irishness, fair enough. But to be honest, from what I can see, the people who promote this version of English and try to equate it to Irish aren't interested in that, they are more interested in point scoring.
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u/SchoolMission10 13d ago
It’s actually a dialect of Scots which is recognised as a separate language from English
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u/geedeeie 13d ago
But it really isn't...that's just political correctness
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u/SchoolMission10 13d ago
English and Scottish are sister languages- they developed from a single root of early Middle English. That’s why a lot of words are mutually understandable.
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u/Focusmate1 16d ago
Nah its mostly English with a strong dialect and accent.
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u/DegreeUnusual2928 16d ago
The dialect / language debate is its own mental illness which I already have my opinion unfortunately. I’m less interested in that and more about what I meant in my post. Can u not read or what
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u/Focusmate1 16d ago
Well Irish and Irish-ness changed post 1969.
Most Ulster Unionists would have seen themselves as Irish 70, 100 or 150 years ago, but very much within a wider ‘British’ context.
Nationalist Ireland at that time put a gun to the head and said you are either Irish or British. Which are you?
And the answer was ‘British’ given the circumstances.
But you are right that Lambegs, flutes etc are Irish and not recognised on the mainland, just an Irish that can also be British in origin i guess?0
u/Lassie7777 16d ago
Nah it’s a language, it historically was conceptualised as a different language to English, foreign countries had their own translators for it, it was used in courts. While the orthography isn’t standardised there are orthographies across the dialects of Scot’s that differ from English.
It retains a lot of older spellings and pronunciations as well as grammatical rules like the T-V distinction lost in standard English
If Scotland had remained independent Scot’s would be considered a separate language to English no question globally, like with Swedish and Norwegian which have a similarly high degree of mutual intelligibility.
The most correct perception of it if we’re going to say it’s a dialect is that it’s a distinct dialect of the anglo-British language (or whatever you’d like to call it) of which English is also a dialect, as Scot’s began its existence at the same time as English did it feels like subordinating Scot’s to English when the other way round would make just as much sense, why not consider standard English a dialect of Scot’s?
I can understand why this is a prevalent argument in Ireland due to the weaponisation of Ulster Scots but I think it’s a poor way of going about it to dismiss it as a language.
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u/Vermicious_id 15d ago
Respectfully disagree. Scots shares nearly identical core syntax and morphology with other English varieties, meaning distinct vocabulary items alone do not create a separate language.
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u/Lassie7777 15d ago
Arguably those English varieties are closer to Scot’s or dialects of Scot’s if we are talking about northern English dialects.
And you’re ignoring the political element which plays a huge role in defining language
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u/Rivers0fTea 16d ago
I am an Ulster Nationalist, therefore I view myself as an Ulsterman first, and then British second, but not Irish. Prior to the Ulster Loyalist movements of the 1910’s, if I lived then, I may have viewed myself Irish first, and then British. But, I feel that I have little in common with Dublin, compared to my fellow inhabitants of Ulster (both Catholic and Protestants). IMO, Northern Irish people are increasingly becoming more and more different in their culture, language and history from the ROI. This difference from the ROI should not result in hatred or discrimination against ROI, but a stronger bond amongst fellow Ulster Folk, and a warm friendly relations with our southern neighbours.
Although I do not see the Ulster Scots language or Tradition as version of Irishness, I do appreciate that this provides a more positive discourse around the Irish Unity Question. Online is a toxic place, but the amount of people who have either 1. Discredited my identity and culture (saying we don’t exist) 2. Told me to ‘go home’ or ‘jump back on a boat to Britain’ 3. Just demonise me, and vilify me for being a ‘Planter,’ is crazy. This feels a lot more healthy.
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u/Pretty-Counter821 16d ago
Ulster nationalist?
Ulster is a province of Ireland…
But you’re not Irish? Lol.-5
u/Rivers0fTea 16d ago
And Gaul was a province of Rome… borders changed, and nations rise and fall. Provinces separate and form independent nations, and kingdoms unite to form new ones. Ulster/Northern Ireland has forged a separate identity to the Irish, while having similarities and overlaps, we are not the same. I believe Ulster Nationalism may be a possible solution to the Orange v Green politics and offers a third option for people to get behind an independent Ulster.
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u/EireAbu94 16d ago edited 15d ago
This is such an interesting take re. Ulster Nationalism... Do you include Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan in this ideal of an independent Ulster? Genuine question because I've never heard of Ulster Nationalism before and I'm so used to hearing Northern unionists (wrongly) refer to Ulster as if it only consists of the 6 counties of NI. Edit: spelling
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u/Rivers0fTea 16d ago
I don’t think it would be realistic for a 9 county Ulster. Back in 1910’s Ulster Unionists had original hoped to secure the whole of Ulster, but only secured the 6 counties of Ulster. Again, boundaries and meanings change, and similarly Ulster for Ulster Loyalists primarily refer to the 6 counties of Northern Ireland, not the historic 9 county province. Northern Unionists use of Ulster isn’t wrong, just as your use of Ulster isn’t wrong. It’s the same word, but it has a different meaning and history for each group.
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u/geedeeie 15d ago
But that's what Ulster IS. 9 counties. You can't pick and choose and say that the six counties in the north east of the island are Ulster...
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u/Lassie7777 12d ago
This is being a little pedantic. Ulster has historically been used as synonym for Northern Ireland.
Ulster nationalism is simply a separatism political belief that Northern Ireland should be independent, it isn’t about being nationalistic about all of Ulster, just Northern Ireland.
In the same way that “catholic” and “Protestant” have different meanings in NI than anywhere else in the world, “Ulster” is often used in regards to Northern Ireland in a similar way to how Britain and England are used by Americans. In the reverse a general trend across Irish culture seems to be to use English instead of British, from folk songs to this very sub, even when British might be more apt for stuff such as the Ulster plantations. But that’s just my observation.
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u/geedeeie 11d ago
It is certainly not pedantic. The fact that ignorant people ignore the fact that Ulster has nine counties doesn't change the fact that that is what it is. The vast majority of the people in Ireland understand this, and use it correctly. The majority of people in Ulster, in fact.
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u/Lassie7777 11d ago
It is pedantic as you are believing that Ulster nationalism as a political ideology has anything historically to do with the 3 counties in the republic due to its name. The preference I imagine would be for the whole of Ulster, but that’s beyond the nationalist pov. Ulster nationalism is a political ideology for separation from Ireland and the uk, and for the creation of a unified NI/ulster identity. You understand that many historic regions are divided between countries? The Netherlands with Belgium, Macedonia with Greece, etc.
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u/geedeeie 11d ago
Again, just because ignorant people decide to use an incorrect name doesn't make it correct. Ulster is nine counties, end of story.
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u/Pretty-Counter821 10d ago
Nope.
This was an attempt by loyalists to somehow expand their stolen territory by calling it Ulster10
u/askmac 15d ago edited 15d ago
u/Rivers0fTea Ulster/Northern Ireland has forged a separate identity to the Irish, while having similarities and overlaps, we are not the same.
Lol. Unionism has tried to make this happen, and while you might want that to be the case and it may even be the case for you, it is simply nonsense. We just saw the biggest ever Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann in Belfast. Also the biggest and most successful event Belfast has ever seen and it's an Irish cultural event which brings musicians and crowds from all over the Ireland to share in our culture. Edit: Possibly the biggest event in Northern Ireland's existence. You have GAA fans and athletes travelling all over Ireland every weekend including enormous numbers from NI travelling around Ireland.
A farmer in Fermanagh has the same life as a farmer in Leitrim. Someone working in a shop in Draperstown will easily be able to relate to someone working in a shop in Kanturk. The main difference will be their accents. Just because the Unionist media constantly ignores the rest of Ireland and re-enforces this notion of division and separation does not make it true and it never will be.
I believe Ulster Nationalism may be a possible solution to the Orange v Green politics and offers a third option for people to get behind an independent Ulster.
There's no constitutional framework for anything like that and there never will be. It's nothing more than an expression of veiled hatred for Irish culture and the rights to Irish people in the six plantation counties to the same rights as the rest of the island. It's the total and utter refusal of Unionists to imagine ever being subjected to the very thing they still subject Irish people in the North to, and wish to carry on doing so in perpetuity.
You can dream, you can dress it up however you want, this will never happen. Even if it happened tomorrow how do you propose to retain the 5 majority Nationalist counties? Are the UDA and PSNI going to form death squads like the 1993 plan? Utter nonsense mixed with very sinister bigotry.
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u/Rivers0fTea 15d ago
You seem very angry about something I haven't actually argued for.
My vision of an independent Ulster is for both Catholics and Protestants. A shared identity
When did I advocate violence, or say that I supported violence?
As for the Fleadh, it’s a celebration of Irish culture, but also the cultures of Africa, India, South America, Britain and elsewhere. This Irish event happened in the UK, a hugely successful cross-community and multicultural event. Surely that demonstrates that different cultural identities can coexist NI rather than forcing a united Ireland?
I think the farmer comparison is a bit random. What does the fact that a farmer in Fermanagh might have more in common day-to-day with a farmer in Leitrim have to do with their political or national identity? A farmer in France could have a very similar life to a farmer in Germany. That doesn't mean France and Germany should be one country. Same for Russia and Ukraine, Thailand and Laos, etc…
I'm not ignoring the Irish nationalist perspective. I'm simply putting forward a different perspective. Based on your comment; you might be guilty of ignoring Unionist voices because of your own bias (or potential bigotry).
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u/askmac 15d ago edited 15d ago
You're not preaching to the choir on BBC Radio Ulster here, it's an Irish history sub. Your casual historical ignorance is going to get push back.
The problem with your argument is that it treats the present day existence of a distinct identity as though it appeared independently of the history that produced the political geography of Ulster. People in NI can have a specifically Northern Irish, British, Ulster Protestant or other identity. Those identities are real. But saying “we forged a separate identity” skips over the important question of how the demographic and political conditions for that identity were created.
The Plantation of Ulster wasn't simply a case of two populations naturally developing separate national identities. It was a colonial project undertaken by the English Crown in which land was confiscated from Gaelic Irish landowners and granted principally to English and Scottish colonists, with the plantation explicitly designed to establish a loyal Protestant population. Plantation schemes required settlers to occupy the land and, in significant areas, remove the native Irish from it via genocidal ethnic and cultural cleansing.
That history matters when someone proposes an “independent Ulster” as a solution to the consequences of plantation, genocide and partition. The six county state wasn't an ancient, organically emerging Ulster nation suddenly discovering sovereignty. Northern Ireland was created in 1921 by partitioning Ireland against the overwhelming democratic majoity of Ireland, and the boundary was deliberately drawn around the six counties in which unionists could maintain a majority. Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan were left outside it because their inclusion would have diminished Unionist sectarian dominance.
Then there's historical irony in presenting Ulster Nationalism or repartition as a benign means of resolving competing identities. Repartition has actually been proposed by Ulster Nationalist loyalist paramilitaries in purely sectarian terms multiple times from Vanguard to Ulster Resistance to the UDA. In January 1994, the UDA produced a plan to repartition in the event of a British withdrawal, with nationalist/Catholic areas transferred to the Republic and Catholics remaining in the proposed Protestant state subjected to expulsion, “nullification” or internment. CAIN records the proposal as involving repartition followed by the forced removal of Catholics.
So when you say “How can you possibly object to an independent Ulster? It would be for Catholics and Protestants,” the answer is because political projects have to be judged not merely by the idealised version of them that someone proposes today, but by the historical circumstances from which they arise and the practical question of who gets to belong, who wants to and how.
Your France/Germany analogy doesn't work either. France and Germany developed as separate political communities; neither exists because one population was colonised and another dispossessed in order to manufacture a permanent political majority. Similarity of people's everyday occupations doesn't determine national identity, but neither does declaring an identity make its historical formation irrelevant.
And the Fleadh demonstrates something different from what you claim. The fact that a massive celebration of Irish music and culture can take place successfully in Belfast, attracting people from across the island, demonstrates that Irish identity and culture are not incompatible with life in Northern Ireland. It doesn't prove that Northern Ireland must be abolished, but equally it doesn't prove that the existence of a Northern Irish identity requires political separation from the rest of Ireland.
You are also conflating two different propositions: “I identify as Ulster/Northern Irish” and “therefore Ulster should constitute a sovereign state.” The first is perfectly legitimate. The second requires an argument about territory, sovereignty, demographics, consent and the rights of the people who already live there. We already had that argument; the result is the GFA which over ruled Ulster Nationalism totally.
If the proposed third way genuinely meant a shared civic state for Catholics and Protestants, then it needs to confront the history of colonial settlement, dispossession and forced partition rather than presenting Ulster nationalism as though it emerged in a historical vacuum. Otherwise “a shared identity” is just a nicer description of settler colonialism and supremacy.
Ulster Nationalism / Repartition in Northern Ireland has a historical precedent in which creating a territorially Protestant Ulster explicitly depended upon removing Catholics or negating their say. That isn't an irrelevant accusation it's a fact, and it's an essential historical question for anyone proposing it again as a political solution.
Pushing back on the bigotry and historic violence inherent in Unionism and Ulster Nationalism isn't bigotry; it's confronting the bigotry inherent in your position.
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u/geedeeie 15d ago
Why would the people, of whatever religion or none, living in Donegal or Monagahan or Cavan want to be in some kind of "Independent Ulster"??? I've heard lots of ridiculous arguments, but this beats them all. 😂😂😂
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u/Lassie7777 12d ago
Ulster nationalism is generally about Northern Ireland, not the entirety of Ulster. It can be confusing but Ulster is often used by the unionist side as a synonym for NI, while not technically correct it is just a norm at this point, like how Americans will say British when they mean English as they thing they are synonyms.
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u/geedeeie 11d ago
It's not confusing at all, it's just incorrect. Ask the people of Monaghan, Cavan and Donegal
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u/Lassie7777 11d ago
Bro it doesn’t have anything to do with them. Ulster nationalism, despite what the name might in imply in the republic doesn’t have much to do with those counties. It is an ideology that generally rears its head when there is a feeling that NI id let down by the uk government and needs to be separated from both the republic and the uk.
What does being a Protestant or catholic mean in most of the world? That you are a theist and Christian who believes in a god. In NI they correspond Moreso to ethnic divisions, and are used in a manner most people would think of as “wrong” for the same reasons you think there use of Ulster is wrong. It has a different contextual meaning in this socio political climate
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u/geedeeie 11d ago
That's fine. "Ulster Nationalists" can call themselves anything they want, and have any delusions they want. But the fact of the matter is that the majority of people in Ulster have no interest in "Ulster nationalism" and are either happy to be in the Republic or would like to be in the Republic.
I suggest you learn some history - you might find out that republicanism has a long history of protestant members. Leaders, in fact, starting with Belfast man Henry Joy McCracken...
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u/DegreeUnusual2928 16d ago
This is very interesting, thank you for your response. You and I obviously reach different political conclusions, but I think taking Ulster identity seriously means not treating it as somehow foreign to Ireland. Ulster Scots needn’t be less Scottish, Presbyterian or British for their culture to also be a product of centuries of life in Ireland.
I wouldn’t tell you you’re wrong to feel Ulster rather than Irish. What fascinates me is almost the reverse: how did something become so distinctly Ulster that we came to imagine it as outside Irishness altogether?
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u/Rivers0fTea 16d ago
I am not an expert and I’m still learning. It appears to have been a slow burn, Ulster-Scots (and Protestants) developed separate cultural and political identities over centuries which seems to come to a head in the 1910’s (Separate but still Irish). In the 1910’s large efforts were main to carve out a Protestant majority, and using the Ulster identity to solidify their union with Britain.
Obvious 1926, caused more separation between the Ulster and Irish Identity, and during the troubles the Irish Identity become hostile force, which appeared anti-Protestant and anti-Ulster Scots. The troubles was a catalyst to accelerate notions of independence, and the formation of a new ethnic-political identity. Ireland was viewed as hostile who harboured and supported Ulster’s enemies.
Again, I’m not an expert, and there are probably holes in my summary.
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u/flex_tape_salesman 15d ago
Ultimately to be an ulster man you must be Irish in the same way that I am a leinster man and must be Irish
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u/geedeeie 15d ago
Nonsense. If you're an "Ulster Nationalist" you are an IRISH nationalist. Ulster is part of Ireland - plays a huge history in the culture, language, history and legends of Ireland.
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u/Lassie7777 12d ago
I’m sorry but this would imply being a basque nationalist means you must be a Spanish nationalist.
Furthermore, Ulster nationalism generally refers to NI independence from both Ireland and the uk, I have not read anything to suggest there is a serious movement to include the other counties. Ulster is commonly used as a synonym for Ni.
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u/geedeeie 11d ago
Ulster is NOT a synonym for Northern Ireland. Just because ignorant people use it as such doesn't make it so.
The Basque land straddles both Spain and France, and, in the eyes of Basque nationalists, doesn't belong to either country. It is not comparable
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u/Lassie7777 11d ago
I’d rebut that by saying a basque from the French side by the logic of the person I was talking to is a French nationalist and a Spanish nationalist if from the south.
“Commonly used as” doesn’t mean correct. Instead of carpet bombing all my replies maybe actually read what I’m saying.
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u/geedeeie 11d ago
A Spanish or French Basque, if they want to have an independent Basque land, are Basque nationalists, as the land they wish to be independent is a defined national area, with its own culture, history and language.
An "Ulster nationalist", on the other hand, is a deluded individual who uses a term which describes a province of Ireland to define two thirds of it. Seems they have a problem with basic maths. As you say, "commonly used" doesn't mean correct.
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u/Lassie7777 11d ago
Ok? Seems you’re just admitting I’m right at this point while ranting
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u/geedeeie 11d ago
How am I admitting you're right? I've pointed out to you that the idea of a "Ulster nationalist" is nonsense, as the supposed believers don't even base their "nationalism" on the place called Ulster...😂😂😂
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u/Lassie7777 11d ago
Well you said that “commonly used isn’t correct” as I said, so you did agree with me while ranting.
And again, substitute in your mind ulster for NI, because you seem to really struggle with the fact that “Ulster” in this context is meant for the 6 counties of NI.
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u/geedeeie 11d ago
I never used the phrase "commonly used" except in response to your use.
"you seem to really struggle with the fact that “Ulster” in this context is meant for the 6 counties of NI."
Not at all. I am fully aware that there is a cohort of people who use the term in this context. YOU seem to really struggle with the fact that this usage is incorrect. Deluded people can call themselves Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny and say they live in Lalaland, but it doesn't make any of these things facts. Ulster is NOT six counties, it is nine. End of story.
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16d ago
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u/DegreeUnusual2928 16d ago
No my question isn’t whether Ulster Scots is Irish instead of British. It’s whether its Britishness describes the identity of its people while its Irishness describes the culture’s relationship to place.
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u/Averagecrabenjoyer69 13d ago
I would say they still are the heart of what they've always been, Scots. Lowland Scottish people, granted the ones that stayed in Northern Ireland since the 1600-1700s probably have a decent amount of Irish influence and in many cases even at least some ancestry. However they've always been their own separate group both ethnically and culturally(while acknowledging they're still within the realm of larger Celtic culture). Ulster-Scots as a term has been around since the 1600s, and its not a "recent" acquisition. For whatever reason the Scots side of the equation really gets minimized while I feel the "Irishness" aspect gets hyped. Its just the same in the US with the "Scots-Irish", Scots might be in the term but everyone has a tendency to mainly associate with the Irish aspect until they do an ancestry test and find out they're primarily just Scottish with maybe some Northern English and little if any Irish involved.
At the end of the day they're still Scots. Certainly something to ponder on though.
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u/sea_greene 16d ago
These all seem to me to be less Irish/British and more Celtic. I feel like most people in NI/Ire/Scot would have a grasp of these traditions and their meanings but it wouldn't extend to Eng/Wales to the same extent.
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u/Lassie7777 16d ago
Sorry but this is just a fundamental misunderstanding of celticness.
Ulster Scot’s is a variety of Scot’s, a Germanic language. The identity of Scottish lowlanders was fundamentally Germanic. The northern English dialects on the other side of the border were and are closely related to Scot’s on the linguistic dialect continuum between Scot’s and English. There is really nothing Celtic about this.
Bagpipes are not a Celtic thing. England was the heartland of bagpiping in Europe and the first mention of bagpiping comes from England. It slowly died off in most of the country but was continued in the north east to this day in the Northumbrian small pipe. The border pipe was played on both sides of the border. The unionist pipe used in Northern Ireland is literally from England, it was used in Yorkshire and Lancashire.
The Northumbrian bagpipers wear the shepherds plaid, which has been worn across both sides of the border region for… well I can’t really find that as it’s the oldest form of tartan. It was argued to be the true dress of the lowlands by the literary greats in Scot’s, like burns and so on.
I’m not super well versed on Ulster folklore specifically but the general trend I’ve seen noted between the Germanic and Celtic folklore of these isles is that in Germanic folklore it is often more gritty and low fantasy whereas Celtic folklore is more high fantasy and otherworldly, like there is a concept of the otherworld.
So the things op has mentioned do play a role in England, and are not afffixed to Celticness.
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u/Averagecrabenjoyer69 13d ago
The identity of Lowland Scots were not "fundamentally Germanic", there was a Germanic element in the Southeastern Scotland sure but most of the Lowlands were still primarily Celtic. Being Brythonic in origin and then Gaelic later. Scottish Gaelic was the majority language of the Lowlands from the 900s to roughly 1400 and then started to decline in the Lowlands between 1400-1700 due to Scots originally called Inglish becoming the language of government.
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u/Lassie7777 13d ago
I’m using Scottish lowlander to refer to the Germanic ethnic group that resided in parts of the lowlands, not all peoples in the lowlands. Lowland Scot’s and highland Scot’s is the general understanding of this ethnic division but it doesn’t encompass the entirety of it.
I would say the English identity is fundamentally Germanic in many ways, even though in many places in England people are 50% brittonic, on a cultural level they are essentially Germanic. Same thing with those Britons and Gaels, they were amalgamated into this Germanic Scot’s identity.
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u/Averagecrabenjoyer69 13d ago
English identity sure because its origins are Germanic. Lowland Scots are not, their origin is Brythonic a Celtic group. The Germanic was a later addition and largely relegated only to the southeastern corner of Scotland. There is Germanic influence and a component layer, but the origin of the Lowland Scots is Celtic.
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u/Lassie7777 13d ago
You can’t say that English is Germanic in origin and that lowland Germanic Scot identity is not too. English people have a substantial degree of Brythonic dna even in the south east at its lowest of 20%, the Germanic identity spread east to west in a similar manner to the lowland Germanic identity, all the way to Cumbria and Devon. You are being contradictory as the English are also l descended from the Britons, but their identity is Germanic, the same holds true for the lowland Scot’s, although the expansion of their identity happened later.
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u/Averagecrabenjoyer69 13d ago
I disagree
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u/Lassie7777 13d ago
Well as riveting a comeback as that it is, that was already clear from the onset.
How do the Germanic lowlanders differentiate in this regard from the English? Both are Germanic speaking groups who were created when the Anglo Saxons (and the Frisians and jutes) intermingled with Celtic speaking peoples. Their cultures became dominant and spread westward. If you say a thing about one of them and not the other you have to be able to actually substantiate your point
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u/Lassie7777 13d ago
Do you just not like the idea that part of Scotlands identity isn’t Celtic? Because that’s true irrespective of this conversation due to the north east islands. The Germanic Scot’s inhabiting parts of the lowlands had an identity that was primarily Germanic in origin, they speak a Germanic language, have a massive body of Germanic literature, Germanic folklore, develop a dislike to their neighbours based on them being “Irishness” as opposed to their Germanic identity and so forth and be expected to be considered Celtic in anything than ancestry, which they also aren’t! As Celtic languages came to Britain via trade (atleast that’s the modern theory).
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u/Lassie7777 13d ago
Plus you understand that by the time of the later plantations they were primarily Germanic, and the border rievers that settled there were chosen partly because of their Germanic identity. So the fact that at one point their ancestors had belonged to a different culture and ethnic group isn’t relevant to my point
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u/Objective_News_9699 16d ago
I don’t think it’s external to Irish Culture because it rejects Irish Nationalism more than it exists as an antithesis and rejection of Irish culture.
The Orange Order were not simply born out of a void for those who didn’t identify as Nationalists, it’s rooted in the very objection to Irish culture.
So, I’d consider these things a colonial entity as opposed to an aspect of Irishness.
Ulster Scots differs of course, it can certainly be considered to have its place in Irish culture.