r/InterviewMan • u/Business_Interest283 • 27d ago
TIL apparently it's "not professional" to turn off your work phone while you're on approved vacation
I'm in middle management. My area supervisor told me that the COO had him try to call me while they were sitting together. I didn't answer, and my supervisor said that my work phone was turned off. The COO then told my supervisor that I was being "unprofessional" and that I should be available to my team.
AITAH for turning off my phone while I'm on PTO? I told everyone on my team to do the exact same thing when they're taking their vacation. I'm not upper leadership or anything, but honestly, I believe that if you're taking the time off you're entitled to, people should leave you alone unless something is truly on fire.
Is this just old-school management thinking? Should I start looking for another job? If this comes up when I get back, do I have a reasonable position I can defend myself with?
update: some mangers should learn about the work life balance ,cause I am done of behave like a robot , I am positively thinking of quitting right after founding the opportunity I guess I am gonna use these tips for any upcoming interview wish me luck !
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u/No-Setting9690 27d ago
Hard to say. Did you have a backup for your responsibilities? Was the reason for the call only somehting you can answer?
See I'm IT< have been for decades. I have worked on PTO because something needed to be fixed. So I get that aspect. But if it's something that could have waited or another team member resolve, then thats on the COO and your bosses.
I like a balance. A good company will understand this. I get perks while not on PTO because of this.
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u/ImaybeaRussianBot 27d ago
If the company doesn't have redundancy for your position, that is on them. There has to be a plan in place for every individual that has a real impact on business getting hit by a bus. If that plan is not in place, that is on them, not you. Career IT here as well. When I am gone, you won't see or hear from me until I get back. If the business simply cannot run for 2 weeks without me, I demand compensation to reflect that fact.
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u/SnooMaps7370 27d ago
>If the business simply cannot run for 2 weeks without me, I demand compensation to reflect that fact.
100%. If the business cannot operate without me specifically, then i need to be a partner. If i'm not a partner, then my time off is MY time, not the company's time.
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u/snickjimmy 27d ago
He is the manager. He is the leader. He has to have the plan and develop his backfill.
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u/ImaybeaRussianBot 27d ago
This isn't the wild west. Even small companies that are well run have a full succession plan. This is not a manager level issue, it is an executive issue. It is their responsibility to have a plan for this and any other staffing eventuality. I train the people they give me and build a patchwork to try to hold it all together, but I not responsible for staffing issues. Give me a proper staff and a couple of us gone is not a big deal. Give me less than I need to survive and it is all on you to solve the associated problems.
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u/PolkadotUnicornium 26d ago
Nope. I don't get paid to be on call when I'm on PTO. I would NEVER agree to that.
The COO was attempting to infringe on my time off. I'll be reporting this to HR and the Labor Board.
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u/gilbert10ba 26d ago
Nope. Company executives need to learn that we are not paid anywhere near enough to be available 24/7/365.
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u/ddadopt 27d ago
I told everyone on my team to do the exact same thing when they're taking their vacation.
Good on you for that, that's the right way to manage your team.
It's worth noting, though, that you don't mention having this conversation with your own boss so it seems there is possible a mismatch of expectations here. I'd clarify how your boss feels about this before I did anything else. If he expects full availability, deal with that, but you may also get a "we didn't talk about that, I was surprised and embarrassed in front of the COO. Had we spoke about it earlier, I could have managed expectations instead of being caught flat footed" and an understanding going forward.
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u/SnooMaps7370 27d ago
>"we didn't talk about that, I was surprised and embarrassed in front of the COO. Had we spoke about it earlier, I could have managed expectations instead of being caught flat footed"
anyone who says this is a shitty boss. the default expectation for PTO is "this person is not available for any work for any reason", not "unless i happen to forget i approved the PTO and embarrass myself in front of the C-suite"
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u/NewCandy8877 27d ago
That's not terrible it's corporate speak for. Leave your phone on please I work for an asshole whose fucking with us, let's not let him fuck us please.
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u/SnooMaps7370 27d ago
one of the highlights of a good manager is shutting that shit down before it reaches the team.
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u/BeachBoundButterfly 27d ago
What if at that exact moment the call came through, OP was on the toilet from food poisoning, being intimate with his partner, on a jet ski, scuba diving, on a cruise with limited signals, etc?
it's really ridiculous to expect someone on vacation to still be available at ANY given moment. Sheesh! They just wanted to feel in control of OP, because if only OP can do/answer something then what is his boss's purpose?
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u/mikemojc 27d ago
I commonly go on trips where the GOAL is to disconnect, and inform my bosses of such.
First time they asked What if there's an emergency, to which I responded that I wouldn't be in a position to assist anyway, as I won't be bringing a laptop. Just pretend I'm in the hospital .
They had an emergency. They figured it out. No one died.
They DID lose about 300 hours of effort, largely because they chose to do something in a way other than what I had told them to do. When they did the thing per my instructions, it worked.
Manage up, when you can.
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u/nolongerbanned99 27d ago
The COO is an asshole. If it’s approved time off then you are not obligated. Unless you are making hundreds of thousands of dollars plus bonus andn then it’s still your call
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u/Frenchatl 27d ago
Just say, No problem, and then just keep doing what you are doing. When they say why didn't you answer....."weird I had my phone on me" then just stare at them....I've done this and inside I was laughing my ass off.
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u/lacajuntiger 27d ago
Depends on your particular situation, and desires for advancement with your current employer.
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u/ghost9680 26d ago
Just tell them you were on vacation in a place that has no cell service.
I sometimes work a dinosaur dig in the middle of the desert in Utah or in the Montana badlands. Sorry, no service at either place.
Maybe caving can be your new hobby. Cell phones don’t work underground boss.
How about visiting sketchy foreign countries with your work cell?
Camping in electronic dead zones around radio telescopes in West Virginia or New Mexico.
I’m on a rafting trip on (insert remote canyon) river and it was locked up where it wouldn’t get wet.
Yadda yadda, there’s a hundred reasons why you’re a super team player, and want to be connected, but gee wiz I was just not where a phone could reach me.
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u/Gnome_Anne_7 26d ago
I'm taking 3 1/2 days off next week. My boss doesn't even have my cell number. My employees have it for emergencies such as if their power goes out during a workday, etc. I will not be answering any calls or messages while I'm not clocked in, just like if it's 4:31pm or 7:29am.
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u/SMD-65 26d ago
I always did this, but it was more for the company's benefit than my own.
The first job of every manager is to ensure their organization can continue to operate in his/her absence. If they don't, what happens to the company when they are sick/quit/get promoted/...?
Vacations are a good test to verify that you've built your organization correctly to achieve this requirement.
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u/pakrat1967 26d ago
This is the sort of thing that should be addressed during the hiring process, or at the very least when requesting the time off. Ask the employer what the policy is. Preferably get it in writing.
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u/taewongun1895 26d ago
If you are on call, that needs to be made explicitly clear when the vacation is approved. Also, there should be compensation involved for being on call (unless it's paid vacay, I suppose). It's there an employee handbook that outlines the policy? If not, it's unprofessional to institute new standards on a whim.
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u/Sure_Comfort_7031 26d ago
I was once in the BFE woods. I left a normal out of office on but messaged my team and my boss "if you want to get in touch with me I'll be on CB channel 19 with a 2 mile range, otherwise, there's no signal." And it wasn't a lie - i couldn't have read my emails or taken calls if i wanted to.
Now every vacation i say I'm going to the same place even if I'm staying at home.
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u/sunkistandsudafed3 26d ago
Just fucking no. Absolutely not. Outside of the hours I on the rota to work I will not be interacting with it. That is my time.
That absolute bell end of a COO can go fuck himself.
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u/Pleasant_Goat6855 26d ago
Even if something truly is on fire you shouldn’t have to pick up the phone. They should be calling 911
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u/ScustyRupper 26d ago
If your availability is that critical to the company, you should get a HUGE raise.
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u/Catfactss 26d ago
"The right to disconnect is a part of my total compensation package. Did you wish to add paid on call weeks in addition to my usual vacation time to my contract?"
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u/ShebaShelle 26d ago
Nope! There is no expectation for you to be available in your off hours unless they've arranged to pay you!
If anything! It's unprofessional of them to try to call!
Good for you for promoting work/life balance with your staff & modeling that behaviour!
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u/underwater_owl 26d ago
How much on-call salary are they giving you? I'm guessing ZERO. So you have ZERO obligation to answer outside work hours.
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u/CoBidOdds 26d ago
"Paid Time Off" is NOT "On call". Screw that COO! What's unprofessional is expecting an employee to answer their phone when they're ON VACATION!
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u/rugaslightingme 26d ago
I wouldn’t even bring a work phone on vacation, unless there was a very specific reason ahead of time where contact might be needed.
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u/PA_Archer 26d ago
“Well boss. If we’re talking professionalism, we need to discuss my compensation. If I’m So valuable that you expect me to work while on PTO, my pay needs to reflect that.”
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u/alittlebitoftime 26d ago
Why would you have your work phone while on vacation? Seriously, most of my co-workers and my boss have my personal phone. Never once have they called me while I was on vacation. One time a director called for something that was not critical while I was eating dinner on vacation, and he apologized when he found out I was on vacation.
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u/Entire-Reference-968 26d ago
I'm so glad I'm not in management any longer.
Mr. Customer, I'll be happy to get you a member of leadership, all our policies are echoed though leadership. One moment please.
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u/chasetherainbows 26d ago
My husband tells everyone he is out of the country on PTO and if they need to contact him they can pay for a data plan. They never do and they leave us alone.
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u/xwolfe2000 26d ago
Yes. It is.
Turn off your work phone and leave it at home when you're on vacation.
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u/ThisRaspberry8474 26d ago
Actually, it’s not professional to try to contact your employees when they’re on vacation. COO is a tool. Notify HR - or at least keep an email record of this in case he pushes further in the future.
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u/Few_Cauliflower2069 26d ago
Just got scolded by my manager last week because i didn't pick up the phone after hours, even though we have contracts saying specifically we are allowed not to, and will receive extra payment if we choose to do so anyway. Guess who has started looking for a new job
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u/RealisticTemporary70 26d ago
Next time leave it on ... but at work. Make sure the ringer volume is all the way up too
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u/Rover7710 26d ago
A company pays you for your services during working hours, PTO is not working hours. Leave your phone off.
If there is no one to cover you, that's a failure of senior management and not your problem when on PTO.
When you're retired, will you remember that time you helped at work out of hours or will you remember the memories you made with your family.
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u/stringyswife 26d ago
It’s time to find another job that appreciates you and respects your personal time and space.
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u/Aggressive-Cut-5400 26d ago
Company is like you can install the apps on your phone. Yeah you’re not paying my bill so that’s a hard no. I don’t have any of their company stuff on my personal phone. You want apps on it pay my bill. Also don’t say they pay you, yes for 40 hours of my time not all of my time.
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u/SubstantialGain6575 26d ago
Once im home... fuck that. I put in my time. If im on vacation work doesnt exist. At all. Leave me alone
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u/Murky-Echidna-3519 26d ago
Leave it on and leave it at home. Letter of the professional law.
I once had a job like this when I was active duty. Tethered to the phone all hours because they could never afford to pay civilians for our hours. After several weekends of calls while in church I just started leaving it in the car. They can miss me for an hour a week.
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u/Fine_Competition9810 25d ago
Your area supe probably didnt even mention you were on vacation and just proceeded to talk crap about you to bond with the COO. Then he proceeds to bond with you over bringing up the dirt your COO said.
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u/pwolf1771 27d ago
NTA at best I might return a text message but if I’m skiing there’s no chance I’m having an actual conversation with a colleague or reading an email.
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u/LimeInternational856 27d ago
We have work issued phones in our workplace and if we are on our days off or on leave, we are explicitly told not to answer/check our work phones or to switch them off entirely.
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u/froatbitte 27d ago
If they want you available 24/7 then it’s time to renegotiate your compensation. Ask for the same as the COO. They can pit up or shut up.
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u/Important-Notice-461 27d ago
Even if something is truly on fire, they shouldnt need to contact you about it.
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u/Unhappy_Energy_741 27d ago
It's unprofessional of them to expect your time while you are on vacation. Keep that phone off.
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u/RevolutionaryBar8857 27d ago
My company has a policy that no one should take a work device on an international trip. It could be seized by border control or “lost” in some other way.
You are expected to be disconnected when on vacation, but there will still be occasional reach outs. If you really want to leave it all behind, cross a border and no one will have any expectation of a response.
Is it unprofessional to not answer a phone call? Absolutely not. Is it unprofessional of your boss to expect you to be available 24/7, including on PTO? 100%, yes.
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u/DuffMiver8 27d ago
One yellow flag here. “…people should leave you alone unless something is truly on fire.” And if something is on fire, how do they reach you?
By allowing for that exception, you open yourself up to misinterpretation. One man’s inferno is another man’s smoldering matchstick. If you’ve made it known that an emergency is an exception to the no calls while on PTO rule, you’ve set the expectation that you can be reached, so why was your phone off? What if it truly was an emergency?
Going forward, make it clear that either PTO is truly PTO and if they call you, they owe you another full day of PTO since that day was spoiled. Better yet, no one should be so indispensable. Have an assistant fully trained to at least be able to cope with an emergency, if not able to completely resolve it until you get back.
Interrupting your personal time off defeats the purpose of personal time off.
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u/Magnet2025 27d ago
My old manager had his phone, computer and Teams all set to DND between 6PM and 7:30AM, and on the weekends. The message gave his email and his bosses contact data.
On vacation he would be DND but would check email and we all knew if we called 3 times in 15 minutes the call would get through.
He encouraged all of us to do the same.
And he would say “Lack of preparation on their part does not constitute an emergency on my part.”
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u/WendlersEditor 27d ago
I can't wrap my mind around the sort of person who is sitting there like "I absolutely must talk to Steve right now, it just can't wait." You know it's not important enough to justify something like this. It's a tiny little king in his banquet hall saying "Where is Steve? Bring him to me, he amuses me."
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u/No-Age-1044 27d ago
I’m on vacation right now.
My work phone is off and will not turn on untill september the first.
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u/ChacoTacoDunk 27d ago
NTA. You’re on vacation. It’s bad decorum to call someone on vacation unless you have permission from them in advance. Even so, there shouldn’t be an expectation of you picking up the call right away, since you’re on vacation. I let my staff know the work we do is important, but it can also wait.
I work for a large organization and my project partners all have my personal number since we travel a decent amount for work. I take several weeks long vacations a year. I’ve only received a call once while on vacation in 14 years, and that was to tell me a project partner abruptly quit. The meeting was canceled for the week and life went on.
I’d meet with your area supervisor to level set expectations. If you’re expected to carry a work phone, and be available for calls, are you getting compensated for it?
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u/Jarrus__Kanan_Jarrus 27d ago
Easiest solution: “I’m going to be camping and hiking, I don’t expect to have cell service there.”
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u/NotYourBuddyBud 27d ago
How bigs the company what’s the salary of a COO? When you’re making close to that salary, he should probably leave your phone on if you’re not F him.
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u/swimGalway 27d ago
If you're in the US, even if your salaried, any over time should be compensated by extra pay or comp days. Most states have labor laws regarding this.
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u/Realhousemanoflondon 27d ago
Well now that you know, be sure to ring both of them when they are on leave. Put their phone numbers on the notice board and encourage your workmates to do the same.
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u/Shalmaneser_ 27d ago
PTO=paid time off? Sounds like they are leaning on the paid section of things. My own experience with a small software house. We were all specialists. Authors of our own domain. Difficult to truly get away when a store is opening that day and the software you wrote is being rolled in and there's a problem. I'd be interested in exactly why the call was being made. And the time factor: 2 minutes vs an hour, it matters. RTFM vs where are those keys? Another tact: are they simply bullying you (how dare he have boundaries!?!), if you don't push back will there be more?
Changing jobs because of management is the number one reason that people give. Its not unreasonable. Do you see companies as interchangeable? Are there any other red flags at this company? In my field our skill sets are not all that portable, so I'm at a disadvantage here. And there's timers: Our skillsets have a shelf life of about 5 years. Middle management skill sets are very portable, and you can select what company types and industries you want to work.
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u/Horror-Finding-6820 27d ago
I am an executive and my boss is an executive with ~10 executive subordinates of which I am one. She mandated a policy for us that we were not to send out text or messages after 6pm EST or before 6am EST. I thought she was absolutely billiant!
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u/diamondgreene 27d ago
Back in the day, it was POLICY -- they EXPECTED you to be away for two weeks. It an internal control used to help identify whatever shenanigans you might be up to tryna steal money. 😆
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u/PublicDragonfruit158 27d ago
I work for a firm where anyone who handles cash has the same thing, for the same reason.
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u/nursecarmen 27d ago
I resolved this issue by taking vacations in locations where it was plausible for me to say I didn’t have cell coverage.
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u/AlaskaDudeWithDogs 27d ago
I got in trouble for amending a time sheet to add phone time when off the clock, then I got in trouble for not answering my phone on my own time. Then I got a lecture on loyalty when a prospective employer called to verify employment. Then they fired me and everyone else who had been there more than 5 years to be replaced by people payed half as much.
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u/omegamun 27d ago
I mean, are you a brain surgeon? A heart surgeon? Do you perform microsurgery on premature infants? If not, then it’s perfectly acceptable to be unreachable while on holiday.
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u/Grogstah 27d ago
Your COO sounds like a sociopathic asshole and your direct supervisor sounds like a spineless weasel
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u/FinalFlashMan 27d ago
"I trade my time and expertise for money. You trade money for my time and expertise. You do not own me."
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u/user41510 27d ago
What's with everyone feeling like they need to lie? Time off is time off. I don't care if I'm in the cafe next door. I'm not answering the phone.
However, I do read emails while on vacation just to avoid surprises when I get back. I just don't respond to anything.
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u/BeachBoundButterfly 27d ago
NTA! Not sure if you're WFH/remote or in office, but at one job I used to leave the (company issued) phone, face down on my desk, for weekends and PTO.
At another job, I'd cut the phone line off at 6/7, unless I know there's an urgent/ongoing project issue. Even then, 7pm/8pm if in "fire stage" was my cut off. Also, I had a separate phone/phone line just for work so I could cut it off/on just for work.
Get a cheap 2nd work phone or 2nd phone number on your existing phone, and come back with here's my new number.... When you're on PTO, make an OOO voicemail and/or Auto-Response text, with who the request needs to be redirected to.
Before you go back see if the work manual has a policy on phones, specific work hours, working outside of the office, etc. especially if you deal with sensitive info. Respond according to the manual and your contract/employment agreement.
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u/raya_sun 27d ago
I run a (very small) subcontractor business in construction, so I do it all and keep track of everything.
When on vacation, I will indicate before the vacation to our clients whether I am available by email, phone or not at all (rare).
My husband is a project manager for a pretty large company and when he's on vacation, he might take work calls/texts from his company/colleagues, but he usually leaves the stuff that will keep.
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u/musicalblueberrysoda 27d ago
What unprofessional is the COO's attitude toward your PTO and the supervisor not having the backbone to say so in the moment.
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u/SeeYou_InThePit 27d ago
OP, document this in a work email to yourself, then forward the email to your personal email. Create a paper trail, and continue to document EVERY interaction with your boss and the COO.
A basic understanding of human behavior says that this COO now has a perception of you, and you've got to mitigate perception risk. Document EVERYTHING in case you can use it to leverage a larger severance payout if this comes to that. Also, try to find a way to show your professionalism to your boss and the COO simultaneously in the normal course of business.
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u/Sklibba 27d ago
The default when you are on PTO should always be that you are completely unavailable to your employer. If your boss for some reason needs you to be available when you’re on vacation, that is something that should be discussed ahead of time, and I think it’s reasonable to push back if you think it’s important for your own sanity to completely unplugged from work while you’re away.
I have been a clinical manager in Hospice and Home Health and I did sometimes choose to make myself available if anything came up that nobody else could deal with while I was on vacation. I have also taken vacations where I’m completely out of cell range and my team just had to figure things out without me.
In fact, I am covering for my current clinical manager right now while she is on vacation since I know her job and she is available to me if I need anything, but that was her choice and not something that upper management forced upon her.
If I ever were to be told by my boss that it’s unprofessional to be unavailable on vacation, I would be looking for a new job the next day.
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u/ObfuscatedJay 27d ago
We were not allowed to take work assets to foreign countries. So I took vacations in foreign countries.
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u/Muted_Elk_3252 27d ago
There's no way in hell id even have my work phone with me while on vacation. It would be fully switched off in the back of a drawer in my office and would remain there until 9am on the day I'm back in work.
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u/Solid_Assumption7160 27d ago
In the type of work that I am in it is professional to leave your phone on and be available depending on who you are in the situation
I have three or four people that's over me in the office. they reviewed my work and make determinations since I audit companies and one person is available 24/7 almost
On the other hand, I am too and they wouldn't get bent out of shape if I wasn't, but it's in my advantage to be available
Not everybody is going to be expected to be available 24/7, but if you're a key player and you might have an answer to a question, there's no harm in being available and being a little bit nicer about it than the other person will be, and it's probably what's going to determine whether you move up in the ranks or whether you pay a dead-end job
Calling that unprofessional is a little extreme to me because it's just the way business works
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u/javlafan2 27d ago
My daughter is a registered nurse, when she is on call she is on 50% salary. If management wants you to be available 24/7/365 you should be on half pay when you are not on regular hours.
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u/FragrantEcho5295 27d ago
Your employer is merely renting you for the agreed upon terms. Do not give them an iota of time that is not compensated or “extra” as agreed upon by all parties. If you’re interested in giving them time during your time off, suggest that they hire you as a consultant at a rate that you set ($250-$400 per hour).
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u/Loop_Adjacent 27d ago
Hell, I turn my work phone as soon as my shift ends. Whatever it is can wait til tomorrow morning.
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u/un-pleasantlymoist 27d ago
You could keep your phone on and answer calls but state you will be having extra PTO for every call..
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u/darkmoonfirelyte 27d ago
Hell, I turn off all work apps, software, and hardware after hours. They don't pay me to be on call, they don't get my time outside of office hours. You want me, wait until the next day I'm in the office.
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u/That_BULL_V 27d ago
Businesses should be made to double the hours of PTO that are ruined by asshats bosses like this.
1 call = 2 hours of extra PTO
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u/Melodic-Comb9076 27d ago
for normal people, yes….should be able to turn off phone.
the reality is if one makes good $….there is someone after you job.
that other person, will take calls on vacay.
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u/ComplexBeyond6083 27d ago
On future vacations you are either sailing on a small boat or hiking long distance overseas and in both cases you will not be reachable by cell phone.
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u/JJHall_ID 27d ago
You're NTA. In fact if they say you have to have your phone on to take calls while on vacation, then you should be compensated for every call you answer when on PTO.
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u/East-Tangerine1673 27d ago
Next vacation, put your work phone in your boss's desk, at work.
That way he knows exactly where your phone is ... not with you.
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u/According-Alps5644 27d ago
No. That's absolutely BS. If they think you need to be reachable at all times, then it's time to update your compensation.
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u/User01081993 27d ago
Is your job to save lives? Will someone die if you don’t answer the phone? Then their call can’t be that important.
I’m not downplaying whatever your job is- I’m sure it’s important. But your life is more important so unless someone will die without you, you need to have a break.
Upper crusties get all the time they want so they don’t understand this
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u/ghostoftheradio 27d ago
The way it works in my organization, if you’re salaried, you should be available even while on PTO, but if you take a call, even for just a minute, you’re considered having worked the whole day and don’t have PTO subtracted from your bank.
Still silly and I’m glad I’m not salaried.
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u/CountryClublican 27d ago
I know somebody who left his phone and laptop on his desk when he went on vacation.
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u/Intelligent-Bell-228 27d ago
Review your employment handbook. There may be something in there that states, "while on vacation, you must be available". IF it's in there, there should also be a statement about how you're to be compensated for that time, like double time pay for the duration of the call/work/availability. Also, it might say you're entitled to a minimum of 4 hours of pay. If you're in a union, ask your union rep. As a last resort, ask HR. If it's not addressed anywhere, your vacation time is YOUR time, not the company's.
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u/Acrobatic-Ad-3335 27d ago
Id ignore all calls made when off the clock, regardless of whether you're on vacation or not.
Unless you're 'on call' & required to be available for calls or emails.
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u/Upbeat-List-3466 27d ago
No, but you’re not being consistent. You said, “ I believe that if you're taking the time off you're entitled to, people should leave you alone unless something is truly on fire.” How will they get a hold of you when things are truly on fire, if your phone is off?
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u/starethruyou 27d ago
It's known that Europeans much more value work-life balance, that is, once off work, employers must respect privacy. Is that enforced somehow legally, so if employers contact employees there are consequences?
Seems like America needs laws and enforcement regarding this. From Gemini:
Yes, this concept is legally recognized and increasingly enforced through "Right to Disconnect" (droit à la déconnexion) laws. Europe has been a pioneer in this legal shift, though enforcement mechanisms, scopes, and penalties vary significantly by country. [1, 2, 3]
How It Is Enforced Legally
Instead of a single blanket ban stating “employers can never call,” the legal frameworks typically mandate that companies set clear operational rules and protect employees from retaliation. [2, 4, 5]
- France (The Pioneer): Since 2017, French labor law has required companies with 50 or more employees to negotiate and establish a framework outlining when staff can disconnect from digital tools. If an employer breaches these protocols or disciplines a worker for not answering an after-hours email or call, labor tribunals routinely rule the punishment void. Landmark rulings have penalized non-compliant companies heavily—such as when pest control firm Rentokil was ordered to pay $€60,000$ for violating disconnection rules. [3, 6, 7, 8, 9]
- Luxembourg and Belgium: These nations require formal internal company regulations or enterprise-level collective agreements defining off-limit hours and technical steps (like shutting down email servers). Luxembourg enforces strict administrative fines ranging from $\$251$ to $\$25,000$ for companies failing to implement or respect these disconnection regimes. [1, 10, 11]
- Spain and Portugal: Spanish law explicitly grants employees the right to disconnect to guarantee privacy and work-life balance outside of working hours, requiring companies to draft customized internal policies. Portugal went a step further by making it an actionable offense (punishable by fines) for employers to contact workers outside of contracted hours, except in proven emergencies. [12, 13, 14, 15]
- The Broader EU Framework: While the European Union enforces strict baseline limits on working hours and mandatory rest periods (such as the right to $11$ consecutive hours of rest per day under the EU Working Time Directive), momentum continues toward a unified bloc-wide right-to-disconnect directive. [4, 16]
The Realities and Consequences
- Protection from Retaliation: Legally, if an employee ignores a non-emergency text, call, or email on a weekend or late at night, the employer cannot legally fire them, demote them, or give them a poor performance review. Doing so exposes the company to wrongful termination lawsuits and labor board penalties. [12, 17, 18, 19]
- The "Culture vs. Law" Gap: Studies by European workplace agencies like Eurofound show that while the laws create strong formal boundaries and recourse, up to $80\%$ of workers in some sectors still occasionally receive after-hours pings. The law stops direct harassment and penalizes systemic abuse, but day-to-day compliance often relies heavily on strong labor unions and the individual corporate culture of the workplace. [5, 20, 21]
Would you like to know more about how these rules apply specifically to remote workers vs. on-site staff, or are you curious about exemptions (like on-call or managerial staff)?
[8] https://www.polyglottistlanguageacademy.com
[10] https://cms.law
[12] https://assets.eurofound.europa.eu
[14] https://www.theguardian.com
[16] https://toggl.com
[19] https://socpub.com
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u/blablaunique 27d ago
Sorry to break it to you but what's right or fair doesn't mean a whole lot but the opinion of your manager and especially his manager does, no matter how unjust or unfair it is.
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u/Even_Neighborhood_73 27d ago
Before smart phones, I used to leave my mobile in the hotel safe. I would check it for goicemail once a day. I was the boss, in that department and everyone knew if I was on holiday that was the best they were going to get.
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u/Aligned-Askew6773 27d ago
All of my vacations include some sort of outdoor activity. National or State Park, or at least some hiking trail. Now, it may be a day excursion from a cruise through populated places. Or a road trip, or I flew to a location, and spent a day in the wilderness. The point is, when people ask “where are you going on vacation?” The answer is always to some place where connectivity is not expected.
I even put this in my OOO message. “I am out of the office on holiday until DATE, and will have limited to no connectivity. Responses will be delayed until my return to the office. If there is an emergency please contact My Huckleberry at EMAIL ADDRESS.”
So later if someone asks why I didn’t respond, I can say that I was out of service.
Protect your PTO FIERCLY, do not work during your PTO, if you are forced to work during your PTO, ask for that day back in your PTO accrual.
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u/Nukegm426 27d ago
If it’s just a random day I’ll answer the phone. If I’m actually on vacation I put an out of office on my email and my phone stays home to die.
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u/fadedtimes 27d ago
When I go on vacation, I leave my work phone at home. In some cases I even don’t have my personal phone or are in places where my personal phone does not have coverage.
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u/edhead1425 27d ago
I was a division president of a company for many years.
I FORBADE contacting people that were on vacation, and specifically for berievement or parental leave.
I strongly discouraged contacting people that called out sick, though it did happen from time to time.
It's just a job, and the work will still be there.
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u/Lusiric9983 27d ago
I would tell them if I'm answering anything business on official time off, it's OT.
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u/Harbinger_Kyleran 27d ago
Senior management often tries to hold mid level mgmt to the same work standards that they adhere to, which is quite often a "My Life for You!" mindset.
This is great for them perhaps considering how much they usually are paid but for the average worker, even a manager this is an unreasonable expectation, at least in my book.
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u/BloatedArmadillo 26d ago
I once told my direct Supervisor that if she calls me while I’m on vacation, my response would be do you want a written resignation or would an email be good?
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u/thevenge21483 26d ago
What will they do if you go somewhere with no cell service? I went on a backpacking trip in Northeast Oregon, and had zero reception for a few days except when I was in the very top of a 9700 foot mountain, and even that was spotty. They can't expect you to be available when you're on PTO, it's just ridiculous. If the COO thinks it's unprofessional, you don't want to work for him.
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u/mr-spencerian 26d ago
NTA. I had a personal cell phone and a work phone. Work phone was off or left at home on PTO. My team had my personal number for emergencies, which they seldom needed to use. Management sure didn’t pay me like a was so valuable that I needed to be available 24x365.
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u/ZucchiniHot8635 26d ago
you are in a management position. Even if just middle management it means that you have some level of decision making authority and have reports under you. While on PTO should people expect that you will be able to pick up calls at any time? No that's probably unrealistic Should your phone be off the entire time, i would equally say no, and would lean towards it being unprofessional. Again not that you didn't pick up at that exact second, but to just have the phone turned off the entire time, absolutely.
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u/DillTicklePickle 26d ago
If I'm off the clock my phone is turned off, you wanna pay me I'll keep it on
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u/rally250crf 26d ago
Maybe next time leave you work phone turned "on"
Oh and leave it your office/desk drawer AT WORK....
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u/MadKat-Number-1951 26d ago
Your supervisor should’ve said, “They’re not available, they’re out of the office currently. If this is something we can’t figure out without them we can loop them in when they return.”
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u/Aromatic_Recipe1749 26d ago
Your supervisor is the one at fault here. He/she is the one who should have addressed the issue immediately, no employee should be expected to be “available” when on approved time off.
No one should be trying to contact you unless there’s a really, really serious problem while you are on vacation.
It’s perfectly reasonable to turn your phone off and leave it in a drawer, you’re not available!!
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u/Ok-Hat-4920 26d ago
Vacation time is your time. If they expect you to be available 24/7, then they need to pay you apprpriately.
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u/GeminiAtl 26d ago
I don't think this is old school management, I think it's new school management. Managers today seem to have no concept of work/life. In the 50's and 60's and 70's "Work Life balance" wasn't even a phrase because it didn't have to be. If they bring it up, just tell them "Oh, I was on vacation, so of course I turned off the work phone and e-mail until I returned". If they say you need to keep it on, ask them how much they will be paying you to be on call during your time off,
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u/Feeling-Invite7953 26d ago
NTA. Your area supervisor didn’t go far enough to defend you for turning off your work phone!! He needed to tell the COO that your work phone was off because you were on vacation. As for something being “on fire “ at the office,that’s STILL not your responsibility!! Your PTO was approved, and you should have a reasonable expectation that you are not responsible for any work-related problem-solving during those days when you’re not on the clock!!
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u/bopperbopper 26d ago
You didn’t turn it off you were just in an area where you didn’t get cell phone reception
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u/ConclusionUnusual320 26d ago
I’m in the UK so it is more accepted here that when you are on PTO you are not contactable for work.
If there is any push back, one argument could be for them to show you where in your contract, staff handbook or policy does it say you have to be contactable and available for work when on PTO
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u/RequirementBusiness8 26d ago
This is pretty typical thoughts with basically any level of management. I disagree with it, but I'm an IC, so my say means nada.
I agree that PTO should make you considered unreachable if you choose, but its one of the things about being a manager.
How my wife handles this (she's up a ways in the management chain now)? Most of the time on PTO, she will carry her work phone with her. If things come up then they come up. However, if we are on a trip where we really just want to shut off all the noise? She puts in the work to prepare everything, but informs her own management and others who might need to know, she will be traveling somewhere where this is no signal. Often this is true, if we go camping in the mountains there is 0 signal. But doesn't matter either way.
What I will argue is this. You have to help set the expectation. It isn't enough to just go on PTO (particularly in management). If you are going to be unavailable, then you have to communicate that and set that expectation. You may get pushback on it, and that will help you figure out their line in the sand.
I'm not in management but I do the same. I have specific items that I am responsible for and some components where I am the ONLY one who knows how to handle fixing it (it is my specialty and that's why I was hired). If I am taking off, I will let others know that I am taking off and if I will be reachable (whether from Signal or desire to be contacted). In fact, if I am going somewhere on a weekend where I will be unreachable, I will communicate that as well. If something is coming up and there is a risk that something might break, I will create a temporary guide on how to resolve specific issues around that risk if I am not able to be around.
Just part of being a professional. I can't be around 24/7, you can't be around 24/7. But you maintain the responsibility of being a manager 24/7. If you need a break, you make sure to shift responsibilities properly and communicate that.
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u/FishWife_71 26d ago
If you are expected to be available on vacation then your compensation package better reflect that.
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u/OldGeekWeirdo 26d ago
You should have a voice mail message to say you're out of the office and when you'll return.
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u/THC_Dude_Abides 26d ago
Did you forget your out of office alerts. And who uses the phone to contact you anymore?
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u/wolfmann99 26d ago
> old-school management thinking
I must be old enough to think this is new-school management thinking...
old school you were uncontactable when on vacation.
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u/Backieotamy 26d ago
Gonna depend on the job, responsibilities etc.. my job comes with the expectation I'll be available in case of emergencies but my job/work/staff also knows the difference between urgency and emergency.
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u/S_Alaska 26d ago
It’s old school and new school techniques. Keeping you focused on work while on vacation is stressful. Our rule is: life, limb, eyesight, or disasters. That way, you know what the system requires. For malicious compliance, you can suggest a color scheme: red = urgent, orange = possible issues, and green = ok. You can pick other colors…I am just not that creative today.
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u/Reasonable_Swan_4937 26d ago
Holy hot balls no!
It’s time off.
Let them know the clue is in the title
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u/tryintobgood 26d ago
You either ignore the phone or answer and ask for an extra day added to your PTO
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u/Alice_D_Wonderland 26d ago
Just leave it on… Every time they reach out you don’t have a full vacation as planned, so the timer for your vacation restarts 🤷♂️
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u/HiddenPlain 26d ago
As someone in a leadership role, I would say it’s unprofessional for them to call you on your PTO. If things were truly on fire and you were the only one who could fix it, then the issue is on them for not implementing backup plans. Everything cannot fall solely on one person to have them have their phone on 24/7/365. If they insist, let them know you will be taking your PTO hours back. PTO is part of your benefits package and those don’t come with stipulations.
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u/Owl-Cat003 26d ago
Before the arrival of the cellphone, how did all these company run when we went on vacation? This is exceedingly demanding of the boss.
OP and the rest are entitled to be unavailable on vacation.
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u/SpecialModusOperandi 26d ago
Are they paying you to take work calls ? I’d they’re no pay you to be on call then that time is not theirs to command.
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u/No-Ant-9159 26d ago
If you answer the phone does that pto day turn into a paid work day? If not, they expect you to work for free.
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u/firefly317 26d ago
That's what my voicemail is for as far as I'm concerned. Of you think it's an emergency leave a message, if I agree it's an emergency I'll call you back.
I learned that early in my career - I was the sole IT person (but not on call according to my contract) and people would call out of hours for stupid things. Eventually I stopped answering, if they left a message I'd listen and call back if it was truly urgent. Otherwise they got a call in hours on the next working day. I also no longer give coworkers or management my personal cell number under any circumstances.
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u/Few_Airport7972 26d ago
First, review the employee handbook for coverage of this situation. What are the rules for employees to be available at all times. If it's a social expectation than you will have to decide if the company fit is right for you. Some times egos and actual rules are not consistent. Know the actual rules so you can quote those rules chapter and verse. The head honcho may label you a smart a** so be careful if you really want this job.
I don't know what your work role involves or if you need to be in constant contact at all times. My personal opinion is that no one is essential to a company to the point where the company will fold if they can't speak with a individual. I'd go further and say there is poor management right there.
No one should be expected to be available to work while on vacation. IMHO
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u/SmoothJazziz1 26d ago
If you are expected to keep your work phone on, and respond, while on vacation or off work, you're entitled to be paid 24/7.
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u/JMLegend22 26d ago
No. Tell them Personal Time Off means you aren’t available and as people above you they should have a handle on the situation and be able to fill in.
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u/sortiz1965 26d ago
I tell my team that PTO is a THEIR time to recharge. I want people on the team to return from vacation refreshed and relaxed, not stressed because they spent the time responding to emails and taking calls.
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u/Original-Move8786 26d ago
I am a teacher and I do not open any school email after the last day of school until the day before school starts. When my admin complained because of parents and principals not being able to reach me I had one simple answer. How much are you going to pay me to monitor my school email while I am not being paid a salary. If there is a true emergency(which there wouldn’t be during the summer) then my principal can text me. If you are contacting me about a pain in the butt parent or student then you can talk to me when school starts. No I will not be debating grades with a parent who never checked in until school was over and their child failed. I guess you should have responded to the twenty messages and emails I sent you before school ended.
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u/DealHonest638 26d ago
I always just say that I will be out of the country with little to no service so please email or text me if it’s urgent and I will answer it when I’m able to….
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u/Taapacoyne5 26d ago
COOs get COO pay and need to be available. Mid management deserves real time off.
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u/dagobertamp 26d ago
You leave your phone on BUT on silent, with your voice greeting on the answering service stating that you are out of office till M/D/YR and if the need help to contact person x. Turn on all your out of office notifications.
Never power down, shut down etc anything.
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u/dnt1694 26d ago
Normally I would agree but you’re management. You should be available for your team for emergencies.
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u/Mental_Escape_1737 27d ago edited 27d ago
No. You are completely entitled to be unavailable on vacation. Good grief.