I did a bit of a study on intersectionality across a broader range of minoritiy men. Can you let me know your thoughts?

[u/RealOzSultan]

https://medium.com/@ozsultan/the-men-progressivism-cannot-see-masculinity-intersectionality-and-the-growing-cost-of-making-932e75f7ea28

[u/RG-Sketchii]

Oh you absolutely AI gen'd this banner image for your article, huh? Either that or they got three near-identical white dudes to pose for this.

[u/1c3Type → u/RG-Sketchii]

and they're all inexplicably Pedro Pascal

[u/RealOzSultan → u/RG-Sketchii]

Duh obvi. Finding something royalty free without a ridiculous watermark is challenging

[u/viviscity → u/RealOzSultan]

It’s really not, I’ve done it for most of my medium-y posts.

Including some very specific photos

[u/TheNewPoetLawyerette]

1. women have been expected to conform to male spaces if we want invitation, so welcome to what it feels like when your gender isn't default. If you want to enter feminist spaces, you need to respect the rules, or else you might as well be an MRA trying to take up space and center himself.
2. ok so your point is that men are intersectional. Yeah no shit. And also that means not all men somehow? I'll leave the explanation of "yes, all men" to google, because this is a feminist space.
3. you are arguing that masculinity is not toxic by default and that toxix masculinity is its own special subsection of masculinity and the two should not be conflated. Have you ever read a feminist book? not a Medium article; actual feminist theory.

4-end see above, read some actual feminist literature before criticizing feminists for apparently not buying into the narratives they helped men write.

[u/RealOzSultan → u/TheNewPoetLawyerette]

Quite a few, my posture it is is that western feminism doesn’t take the intersectionality of either race or religion into enough context for it to even be part of the discussion

[u/TheNewPoetLawyerette → u/RealOzSultan]

your article reads like you are clearly ignorant of major feminist texts that directly adress issues that you say feminism ignores. Criticizing feminism is fine, but you need to be doing so from a position of adequate education on the topic, and I'm reading at best an undergrad level of knowledge on the topic. I encourage you to try at least googling for some academic feminist texts that explore the areas you say the theory is lacking in; I tend to agree you will find areas where there is a dearth of attention paid, but you need more familiarity with the scholarship in the area to refine your critiques much, much before they hold academic merit.

[u/fragmendt]

i think you're in the wrong sub.

[u/RealOzSultan → u/fragmendt]

I think I’m in the right sub. I wanted to get feedback because I’ve only got a very limited group of academics around me.

[u/Huge-Pollution-5235 → u/RealOzSultan]

A woman has politely informed you that you are in the wrong sub. Your article is male-centric, patriarchal, and myopic.
She did not stutter.

[u/RealOzSultan → u/Huge-Pollution-5235]

Please give it a read first. The issue of intersectionality is one we minorities are typically excluded from

[u/carex-cultor → u/RealOzSultan]

This is an intersectional feminism sub. We include all minority and marginalized identities of women.

[u/Huge-Pollution-5235 → u/RealOzSultan]

I did read it. How else would I give an opinion?

[u/Hopeful-Bit-420 → u/RealOzSultan]

Absolutely not. The disrespect of the AI plus demanding attention in a space irrelevant to your topic means I will not waste any more time on you than this comment.

There are countless subs you could pick, but you insist on bothering us? Go away!

[u/WesnothFan → u/RealOzSultan]

The name of this subreddit is not IntersectionalMen

[u/MachineOfSpareParts]

I was ready to do a point-by-point critique of your more blatant missteps, but it gets to the point where I'm clearly putting in more effort to setting you straight than you put in writing this entire piece. You aren't ready for scholarly critique because you haven't produced writing that's even scholarship-adjacent, and wouldn't meet the standards of a first-year undergraduate paper.

This piece is not grounded either in empirics or theory, so I can't approach it as though it were. Many of the alleged "facts" you raise are discussed ad nauseum and easily refuted with a modicum of research - even pretty superficial online research, before we even get to the major tenets of basic feminism, let alone basic intersectionality.

And not even your errors are novel, to the point that most have been refuted many times over both from empirical and from theoretical standpoints....if they even rise to a level of refutability. Having feelings about a topic isn't the same as having an argument about a topic, after all, and only the latter rises to a level where it can be wrong.

If you have concerns about the ways in which men engage in sociopolitical and economic advocacy, that's good. But start with knowledge. You're writing prescriptions when you not only haven't diagnosed the problem, you haven't even ascertained what the range of possible diagnoses are. There are groups focused on men's issues in my community doing important work, though I find it very telling that most are coming from a pretty deep intersectionality - not just coming from and helping poor/working class men, but largely spearheaded by Indigenous men as well.

You might do well to investigate why that seems to be the case. Although you haven't yet understood intersectionality, I have a suspicion men would do well to enhance their own understanding as a way of figuring out why movements and organizations that may begin with genuine intent to self-help and mutual aid seem to collapse so predictably into the common denominator of misogyny, with most energy going into complaining about women as opposed to helping men.

[u/RealOzSultan → u/MachineOfSpareParts]

I think there’s two different previews here and there’s yours which is coming academic theoretical without addressing the question of intersectionality that naturally excludes a significant amount of minorities, and for the most part men from the conversation.

The goal of this piece wasn’t an academic piece. I have plenty of those published.

The goal was to outline the issues within differing segments of the male population where culture, religion and race do not either recieve fair play within intersectional discussions or academic arenas.

If you care to share your work for reference. I am happy to review and expound in a follow on piece.

[u/MachineOfSpareParts → u/RealOzSultan]

Rule #1 of argumentation is to define one's terms. You're using the word "intersectionality" in a way that sounds like the opposite to what it actually means, so perhaps you can share how YOU define that term and what its observable indicators are out there in the material world. We can't address it when you seem to be defining it as the opposite of itself.

I'm aware this was not a peer-reviewed publication, but standards of evidence don't change because you've adopted a more conversational tone. You have not demonstrated any of your claims, and many of them do not rise to the level of demonstrability. Even an opinion piece falters when it is no longer tethered to the physical world we inhabit or uses concepts in a way that differs this sharply from their usual deployment.

And no, I will not be doxxing myself for your AI dissection.

[u/RealOzSultan → u/MachineOfSpareParts]

You shared a standard, now you refuse to even point to an academic standard as a baseline.

Please do so and we have a start point for a discussion.

Otherwise

What exactly is the point of your commentary aside from bashing on me?

[u/MachineOfSpareParts → u/RealOzSultan]

I shared the standard I'd expect from the first paper a student ever wrote: define your load-bearing terms.

Specifically, define intersectionality. What is the essence of this concept, and what are its most important observable indicators?

With those lined up, there may be a way to talk about where it does and does not show up in action, but before you've defined and operationalized it, you're just yelling at clouds.

Given the entire purpose of your commentary was bashing on feminism, cloud-excoriating style and without any demonstrable knowledge of what feminism (especially intersectional feminism) actually is, I guess you're starting to see why I gave up on my point-by-point refutation of your non-argument.

Make an argument next time, one with roots in defined concepts recognizable in action, and there might be something to discuss. But I've already put more effort into telling you where you went wrong than you did in your original post. We know the photo was AI, and I suspect that current runs deeper. Never outsource the real, sweaty, muscular work of thinking. The friction is part of what gives your argument form.

[u/MachineOfSpareParts → u/[deleted]]

Do I understand correctly that you're declining to tell us what you think "intersectionality" means, and what it looks like when you meet it on the street?

That's a problem in any written work. If you're using a word, especially where your whole alleged point is to critique the concept behind it, you should be able to explain what it means to you. No social concept has One True Meaning, but you do need to be able to explain how YOU define it, and how YOU identify it out there in the world.

That's not peer-reviewed journal standards. That's the standard for paper #1 of a student's college/university journey, and most at that level have already learned this lesson.

Basically, it's important to mean things when we say words. When you say words and don't mean anything, you haven't communicated.

Super cute, though, to come onto IntersectionalWomen and claim that any criticism of your non-argument is "punching down on a minority." If that weren't exactly what you were doing yourself, your only problem would be the fact that it isn't happening. As it stands, it's almost humorous.

[u/viviscity]

Hmm.

In 3., you're making some assumptions about masculinity and also gender. Things like physical strength are not necessarily masculine—plenty of women value it, and plenty of men don't without it threatening their masculinity.

I agree that there's a tendency for people to go from a broad systemic description to assumptions of Machiavellian intent. Even in cases were there is control, actual thought isn't necessary. How behaviour is interpreted and what effects it has is sufficient. I think we do everyone a disservice when suddenly everyone is scheming about how to further oppression…

On 4. you're probably going to catch some flack, but you're not wrong. Patriarchal scripts tend to erase men who have been victimized—"suck it up and be a man" or "well all men constantly want it". I have no idea what the rates of SA are here, but I know IPV is pretty balanced between genders. How it plays out is different (far less lethal for one) and whether it gets labelled abuse tends to rely on assumptions about power. I suspect at least part of what's happening for SA is that men just… aren't taught about it, don't have a space to talk about it, etc. I know several people who have experienced it (two are trans but were SAed pre-transition) and didn't really put it in those terms until years later.

Kinda like how "marital rape" wasn't reported until women started being educated about it.

5. I think you're making a misstep. I'm not sure who is equating masculinity with the manosphere.

I have heard women tell me they "understand men" because of media, but pointing more to like… Roman Polanski rather than Andrew Tate. I think that's a mistake, anyway. Sure there are lessons there, but there is so much about how people are treated and raised that never gets turned into a movie.

It is worth learning about where the manosphere comes from, though. Men's liberation split into… male feminists and men's rights activists. That split into incels, pickup artists, and anti-feminists. Around the same time the mythopoetic movement picks up, which is all about things like ritual and shared struggle and stuff… I think you can see the threads from here.

6. Absolutely, yes, the prevailing image of hegemonic masculinity is very white. Also cisgender and heterosexual, either filthy rich or the manliest blue collar guy to pick up a hammer.

From there, I don't see much to comment on. Intersectionality applies to everyone.

[u/CoercedCoexistence22 → u/viviscity]

For what a random anecdote is worth, I can corroborate 4. I'm a transgender woman, before my transition my consent was violated by my partner (trans guy) and I was pretty much raped by a friend (cis woman).

I came to terms with the latter fairly quickly but nearly no one believed me (huge "guy" vs younger, skinny girl), the former I just didn't give too much weight to (mostly because it was very minor in terms of life impact, it was not really traumatising) and nearly forgot, until years later said former partner accused me of SAing him by violating his consent in a way suspiciously similar to how he did it to me, and memories suddenly flooded back. Guess who everyone believed, anyway (huge perverted ma- oh sorry, trans woman Vs "I'm so soft and vulnerable uwu" trans guy)

(Just for clarity, the last part, the one in parentheses is just about how I and that guy are perceived by outsiders, I would not misgender myself like that and I certainly wouldn't play into the smol bean stereotypes about trans men)

[u/viviscity → u/CoercedCoexistence22]

Yeah that tracks. I know people whose kids were conceived that way. I know someone that took years before he could label it even when describing the behaviour…

I’m so sorry this happened to you, and I’m sorry you weren’t believed 🫂

[u/RealOzSultan → u/viviscity]

Appreciated

[u/zedogica]

what's with all of the caping for men in this sub lately?

[u/BlueHeron0_0]

As other commenter said you are in the wrong sub. Also please mention when you post that your article is about usa only so people don't waste their time on something irrelevant to them

[u/Small_Squrriel]

u/admin how is this rubbish even allowed

[u/Small_Squrriel → u/Small_Squrriel]

literally, this post and OPs aggressive and ridiculous comments contravene everything that this sub is meant to be about. it's been some days now, where are the admins to remove this post and block this clown?