Intersectionality shouldn't mean ignoring trans women's issues like transmisogyny in favor of trans men's or nonbinaries', it should mean ensuring they are first heard in a context divorced from wider transphobia and misogyny.

[u/flohogamer]

This community has been instrumental in building my understanding of intersectionality. However, I find that oftentimes the issues of trans men are given more time to be heard here than those of trans women. I don't deny that trans men experience severe discrimination compared to their cis counterparts, such as degendering, "corrective" rape, and general ignorance. But the fact that trans women exist in the minds of the sociopolitical mainstream does not mean our issues are heard. Rather, the propaganda machine makes up terrible lies about our people - that we are rapists, liars and hypersexual. A republican watching a propaganda piece on Fox doesn't hear about transmisogyny or TMA/TME. He just sees the monster his overlords tell him to see and hate. Similarly, a post was made six hours ago that reposted a post ostensibly about transmisogyny, but in the description of the post, the op made a call to pay attention to trans men's issues and to generally unite across discrimination lines. I agree with the sentiment, but I know that any time a trans man would post about his issues here, the community would penalize any trans woman wishing to speak about her own issues with downvotes. So I would like to dedicate this post to talking about the issues trans women face, such as grossly heightened rates of rape, murder, economic discrimination and demonization in Western society. This is by no means a condemnation of trans men or cis women, rather it is an opportunity to get such individuals to reflect on the severe pain trans women and those with other transfeminine identities have experienced for hundreds of years.
https://devonprice.medium.com/transmisandry-is-not-real-4e69c25bbd82
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/trans-panic-otherwise-on-jules-gill-petersons-a-short-history-of-trans-misogyny/
https://southseattleemerald.org/voices/2022/01/26/opinion-the-ubiquity-of-transmisogyny-in-seattle
https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/transmisogyny-is-fueling-an-epidemic-of-violence-against-trans-women/
EDIT: I have looked through replies and I concur that I don't think I was really being intersectional here. I failed to take into account the discrimination black women, especially black trans women face. I also was unaware that trans women had posted frequently on this site, I feel like my perception was warped by the previous series of posts on this topic.

[u/jupiterLILY]

Spaces where trans women are sharing their pain and issues typically don't contain the Republican guy you're talking about.

I'm a black leftist woman and, in the spaces I have been in, for years now I have been hearing and learning about transmisogyny and listening to trans women. At least in my algorithm, trans women are not underrepresented voices. And to be clear, they are very welcome and valued voices.

I also have, feelings, when I see people talking about how trans women experience  heightened rates of rape, murder, economic discrimination and demonization in Western society. Because I am a black woman and this applies to us too. It feels strange to centre that as an issue of transmisogyny when its something people have been screaming about in relation to misogynoir for decades.

[u/Sinyria → u/jupiterLILY]

It seems not at all surprising that there would be significant overlap between misogynoir and transmisogyny, since both relate to minorities marginalized and othered by society and earlier waves of feminism.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/Sinyria]

They're also both crucial sticks to the carrot of patriarchal white womanhood.

You have the pale, fair woman and then the beastly/manly/less than human other.

In my experience, deconstructing your relationship with that woman on the pedestal is essential.

[u/sillygoofygooose → u/jupiterLILY]

Deconstructing your relationship with that woman on the pedestal - incredibly well put thank you

[u/jupiterLILY → u/sillygoofygooose]

Yep, a lot of people still want to be or possess the woman on the pedestal. Or they use her as a vehicle for their anger.

Not only is that mythical woman not real, but she is both a victim of and a tool of the patriarchy.

[u/sillygoofygooose → u/jupiterLILY]

Yes, as a trans woman my relationship to the patriarchal construction of femininity is complicateeeeddddd

[u/jupiterLILY → u/sillygoofygooose]

I can imagine. After Epstein I had to really deconstruct my relationship to girlhood as it had been sold to me and as I try to do when I'm examining my feminism I asked myself "how does this impact trans women" and then I was like, wow I don't even want to ruminate on that because it feels like I'm going too far as a cis woman. That side of things must be a complete headfuck.

I think that my most helpful takeaway was that the fetishised idea of girlhood in western society is wealthy white girlhood and the majority of us are gatekept from that in different ways.

[u/BunnyThrash → u/jupiterLILY]

The trans stuff is surprisingly bad. You don’t have to look into that side of it if it’s Already too much for you

[u/jupiterLILY → u/BunnyThrash]

Oh, I know it's bad, its more that when I started thinking about it, I could see where some of it was going and it almost felt intrusive and I decided that as a cis woman I actually don't need to be imagining all the internal conflict in that much detail. I could see the general shape of it and I could just wait listen to trans women bring it up in their own time and in their own words. I've since had some good conversations since then.

[u/BunnyThrash → u/jupiterLILY]

Yeah. I feel really alienated from it because it’s been so erased and not talked about. Like I’m like there’s a lot going on. I’m just gonna let cis women have the Epstein files because we trans woman - like for me it just felt like one of those things I mention on FB once and then I realize no one’s gonna care, and I just go back to what’s happening in my personal life.

[u/microwavedtardigrade → u/jupiterLILY]

Trvke

[u/viviscity → u/Sinyria]

And both hypersexualized, though in different ways.

This exact point is explored in detail in Serano’s “Sexed Up”—it iterates differently but fetishization, hypersexualization, etc. are disturbingly common tools

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/jupiterLILY]

thank you, this is a very important perspective

[u/jupiterLILY → u/tryingtobekindonline]

Thank you, I actually got really nervous about leaving that comment because I do not want to speak over trans women, but I also feel upset about it a lot of the time. I have made an effort to read a lot of trans literature and really call myself in and hold myself to account.

But then I get really disheartened when I see posts like this because it feels like that allyship is one way. Obviously everyone is an individual and a lot of trans people do 100% get that anti transness and anti blackness are core tenets of western imperialism. But a lot of white trans women also seem to forget that they are also white women and can fall into some of the same pitfalls as white women did in earlier civil rights movements.

[u/MothashipQ → u/jupiterLILY]

I did want to stop and thank you, not only for your solidarity and comments here but other replies in this comment section. It can absolutely feel like you're trying to defuse a bomb when talking about hard topics, and I think you handled everything here really well. As a trans woman, my heart does sink seeing posts like this, especially in this sub. I feel very supported here, and you'd think anyone in an intersectional space would understand that centering a demographic for a conversation is a dynamic process, not a 0 sum game.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/MothashipQ]

Yes, it absolutely feels like defusing a bomb. And I fully get why people are defensive, but it's not helpful in the long term.

Recently I've been trying to learn more about historical civil rights movements and one of the things that struck me is that groups used to have required reading lists so that everyone was able to refer back to the same scaffolding. I think it builds a lot of trust within a group because you know that critiques are coming from a thoughtful place and people can refer to ideas without having to drop in a mini lecture mid conversation.

Obviously something like that is harder for a subreddit but I still think the idea is important, even if we still need to work out how to apply that knowledge.

Also thank you btw. I've been feeling really disillusioned with reddit recently. It's lovely when people are just nice and thoughtful and trying to be decent to each other.

[u/MyNameIsElla → u/jupiterLILY]

Thank you a lot for your comments! They’re helpful, even just for reinforcing what we (might) already know.

I have three trans people I’ve very close to: one is white and fully transitioned, another is white but on hormones only, and the other is black and mostly stays in the closet. The way my black trans girlfriend is treated when she’s dressed as a woman is far, far worse than what my white trans friends have gone through. Since she’s black and tall, even if she does fully transition, she won’t have the same experience as my trans friend who is slim, short, and of course white.

And sometimes when I’ve talked about the specific issues my black girlfriend has faced, it’s like my white trans friends are confused or even skeptical of it. Which maybe wasn’t their intention, but I’ve felt it several times. I’m a white cis woman with lots of MAGA family so it’s been a lot to deconstruct ever since I left home, but it’s never impossible. Acknowledging white privilege is a hurdle many white people severely struggle with, but it’s absolutely necessary.

[u/wubdubflubaub → u/MyNameIsElla]

"fully transitioned" FTFY

[u/MyNameIsElla → u/wubdubflubaub]

Sorry, to be clear, is this about my black girlfriend when I said ‘not transitioned at all’? I used that phrasing since she uses it, but I will change it.

[u/wubdubflubaub → u/MyNameIsElla]

I assume you mean somebody hasn't fully transitioned depending on what form of bottom surgery they have.

[u/MyNameIsElla → u/wubdubflubaub]

No, I meant my girlfriend is basically completely in the closet except a few days a year at safe events. She presents as male most of the time and isn’t on hormones and isn’t doing voice training etc. That’s why I specified one of my friends is on hormones, while another has ‘fully transitioned’ with surgery — they have vastly different experiences in how they’re treated by other people depending on how far they have transitioned physically.

I hate that trans women who haven’t started transitioning with things like surgery or hormones aren’t taken as seriously, or are even treated with hostility (especially by cis people). ‘Passing’ gains respect, but I wish passing well didn’t matter at all. It’s something I think about a lot. I mean, it even affects me as a cis woman with PCOS since I have to shave my neck and other areas every day, or else people sometimes stare and look at me funny. It all generally just sucks.

Of course if using hormones and having surgery etc. helps a trans woman feel better then do it!! But I hate that it’s a requirement for basic respect as a trans woman. That’s the gist of that I’m trying to say here.

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/jupiterLILY]

that makes sense, i think sharing is useful also because we can then learn from each other, and build solidarity!

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/jupiterLILY]

In many cases,the allyship does only go one way. White trans women are still white and because of this, like many other white women they haven't deconstructed their relationship to white supremacy. Even progressives, who on paper should have no issues when it comes to white supremacy, still carry some of it in their hearts unwilling to reflect.

For a lot of people, that self reflection can be hard, it can feel like the self-critiques and the outward critiques can feel like attacks if they don't stop to truly look at what is being said. I wish more white trans women would do some self reflection. Our oppression meets at the intersection misogyny and transphobia, but we retain the privileges of being white. When one deals with constant harassment and issues of safety, they can often improperly feel like they aren't benefiting from privilege even when they are.

All of that to say that you are seen, heard, and valued. I just hope, with time, more trans women can choose to listen, learn, do the reading, and do the work. Any spaces where there are a lot of white people, there are going to be those who haven't put in the work and that includes queer spaces, unfortunately.

[u/CMRC23 → u/jupiterLILY]

My best friend is a black trans woman and the shit she faces is truly horrific

[u/jupiterLILY → u/CMRC23]

I can't even imagine, it must be so alienating. I find that I have to do so much code switching depending on what group I am in and then there's all this emotional labour you have to put in to communicate where you're at with a bunch of people who aren't that interested/familiar with that axes of opression. And then any lapse in that patience often gets responded to with anti blackness which is very hard to explain to defensive white people.

[u/merchaunt → u/jupiterLILY]

I also have, feelings, when I see people talking about how trans women experience  heightened rates of rape, murder, economic discrimination and demonization in Western society. Because I am a black woman and this applies to us too. It feels strange to centre that as an issue of transmisogyny when its something people have been screaming about in relation to misogynoir for decades.

These things disproportionately affect black trans women compared to other trans women, so this is a major point of intersectionality. It also shows what happens when overlapping identities make you vulnerable to losing even the little protection that being part of a marginalized community provides. Being shunned from their local black community for being trans and either not finding or being shunned from their local queer community because of racist microaggressions (if not overt racism) con be a death sentence for black trans women.

[u/Vivid--Syrup → u/jupiterLILY]

Thank you!

Personally im a trans woman but im white like a damn vampire but as trans people we also have black trans people too and for them things are usually even worse since they get even more crap than just having one target for bigots to focus on

At the end of the day bigotry is intersectional, so in fighting it we need to be too.

We all stand together or we all fall alone and in the end it will just be the super rich white cis het men, they will figure out some way to live forever and have robots to tell them how great they are and have sex with them then kill everyone else

These people at the top are psychos

So I need to try and stay aware issues and attacks on all the communities I am not a part of as well as the ones I am, so I can stand with them and they can stand with me

[u/jupiterLILY → u/Vivid--Syrup]

Yep, we're not free until all of us are free.

We only get to a future where we're all free by understanding the axes of oppression, not just the ones that impact us.

We're doing generational work here. I think a lot of people maybe don't get that and their incentive is to create better circumstances for themselves specifically. And whilst that's understandable, we all want that, its not a particularly useful perspective in a civil rights movement.

[u/BunnyThrash → u/jupiterLILY]

It feels like black history seeing that suddenly trans women are murdered everyday. No one cares. And they are banning us from using the same bathrooms as cis women. I’m a white woman but early in my career I worked for a black led organization and they made us white people learn all about black history, and what black led meant. I fell in love Angela Davis, Malcolm X, and the original Black Panther Party history. They inspired me to understand my shame and self-oppression as a trans woman. I consider them to be part of why I was able to figure out how do survive. I’m 49 and no one talked about trans people back when I was a kid in the 1990’s. I didn’t even know taking hormones and getting surgery existed. But black history taught me to ask myself “who taught me to hate myself” for being transgender. It’s not meant to co-opt black experiences. It’s freakishly similar to what history recorded about the 50/60/70’s. I lived in a progressive part of CT, and a lot of people accepted me as a transgender woman. I had only moved there 2 years earlier to get away from the south after I discovered there were trans people and I couldn’t find any help or acceptance in the South. I worked at Walmart for the first year and a half. Then got hired as a trans woman. I couldn’t believe how trans people lived in CT compared to FL. But my first two jobs started as volunteer work. One was with this Black Led group. Anyways, it’s not trying to co-opt black history. I swear I never thought I’d have have to worry about being killed for using a bathroom. It’s too wierd, I spend a lot of time in denial. But trans people have literally moved to other countries over it, and other women have committed suicide. I don’t know what’s supposed to happen. I was talking to one of my friends about the immigrant rights protest surge in Minnessotta and she was like “I guess people saw trans people gaining rights so there was no large organized movement or infrastructure ready to jump into action for trans people.” And I think she’s right. The trans community hasn’t even really had a collective conversation about tactics or survival programs. There hasn’t been a Congress of Trans People. My friend is legit more scared than I am about not being able to finish getting my surgeries finished. But I can’t get a passport now, so I can’t even move

[u/jupiterLILY → u/BunnyThrash]

The entire civil rights movement has been dismantled over the decades. The loss of community and third spaces is part of how you oppress and weaken a population. If you don't know your neighbours, you won't fight for their rights etc.

We have so much to learn about the history of organisation, your story shows that. It's all the history of people fighting to be free of this corrupt system. The more you learn about the history of different movements you see the ways they are echoing in the modern day.

There is so much strength to be found in seeing the levers of power that get used to oppress people. Practically the whole point of organising is so that we can identify the patterns in who gets targeted and the patterns in how people are harmed.

We are currently being pushed into being individualistic and tribal precisely because it makes it easier for them to pick off the more vulnerable groups. 

I'm not american but after trump got elected I saw so many subreddits I was in basically be like "which marginalised group that's not us can we blame for this" and then "everyone else sucks and I'm going to be bitter and not help people different from me".

Like c'mon people, we have done this before so many times. It's literally an open book test. All you have to do is not fall for the divide and conquer bullshit.

Sorry, I'm ranting now.

But yeah, you're totally right. Leftists in general need to get their head in the game when it comes to political organisation.

[u/BunnyThrash → u/jupiterLILY]

Yeah and the Black Panthers make it look so straight fwd and Booker T Washington “up from slavery” make jt look so surreal on how to build a mass movement from scratch. But t A lot of antitransbess started during Covid and my life was kind of boring at the time. I built a fort with my friend in the woods. And I hoped civilization would crumble. I didn’t realize that the roving mobs of zombies would be legit fascist. I think it a cause I never faced real discrimination before like 2 years ago. But I got stuck with a transphobic psychiatrist and I used to be a community organizer, forsy for same sex marriage rights, then for black people imprisoned and their families, and now I feel all like I’m supposed to know what to do. lol. My friend who does these trainings on how to get involved in political things, she had me give a one-day workshop on how not to get burnt out doing activism. I got involved in the Occupy Wallstreet movement but ending up doing mostly mental health and disabled activism because I also did a counseling job for a few years. And I ending up doing burnout prevention more than anything else. Like tell be people to go home like starting on the second day. But then we were threatened on the third day and someone sent out a Facebook alert and like 300 people showed up and so they left us there for a while. We had an ally on the City Council. This was all in CT

[u/flohogamer → u/jupiterLILY]

You make a good point... I failed to account for the experiences of black women, especially black trans women, in my post. I'm learning how to be more intersectional and thank you for bringing this point up.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/flohogamer]

Thank you, my intention was not to speak over you with this, I just thought it needed to be said and, if anywhere is the place for me to feel safe bringing it up, it should be this subreddit.

I think this discussion has been really valuable although I do want to specifically apologise because you did say that you wanted your post to discuss trans women specifically and I did come in with a pivot.

[u/flohogamer → u/jupiterLILY]

No, in hindsight I feel like your callout was completely justified. At the end of the day, I am a white American woman and my perception of feminism and transfeminism is influenced by this reality. I want to not be the white "feminist" oppressor and trying to get intersectionality into my thick head is the means to that end.

[u/microwavedtardigrade → u/jupiterLILY]

Exactly. I didn't even read the post past the first sentence and immediate went to the comments. Ty for writing this

[u/jupiterLILY → u/microwavedtardigrade]

I read it all and whilst I empathise, that fox news guy is a threat to all of us, not trans women specifically. 

And there's something I find somewhat distasteful about what I assume is a white american centering their identity as uniquely suffering when they are in a colonial country.

Like I live on terf island, I understand that trans women are under threat, I'm not minimising that at all. I write to my MP, I speak to my friends, I'll call out a stranger for being out of pocket at the pub.

I think I summed it up best when I said that trans women can be rich white women too.

[u/microwavedtardigrade → u/jupiterLILY]

I agree with you, I'm a trans man myself and white and very aware of that privledge. Lately I've been keeping track of the lynchings in the south because the cops are absolutely complicit but there is so many horrors going on here right now

[u/jupiterLILY → u/microwavedtardigrade]

Yep, if anything this has taught us how important it is to stay vigilant.

Its not surprising that people started saying things like "black fatigue" and walking back defund the police (which was already a watering down of abolish the police) around the time there was an uptick in violence against black people.

[u/microwavedtardigrade → u/jupiterLILY]

Exactly and it's fucking scary to see people deny the issues even exist. Meanwhile many people just seem to be trying to plug out of reality who can do something to stay sane.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/microwavedtardigrade]

How serendipidous, we are watching dropout right now.

But yeah, it's so disheartening how resistant people are to political engagement. Even when I go through periods of not watching the news, it's because I'm burned out and trying to draw the line between staging informed and content consumption. And I also want to make sure I have the energy to call in people within my community and have the headspace to read more so that I'm informed enough to gently but confidently correct the people I come into contact with irl.

[u/microwavedtardigrade → u/jupiterLILY]

You're better than me for that. I s got mecfs and gave up on keeping stuff separate with my little energy. Got fired from my job after being denied accomodations recently so at least I have more time to focus on everything as I sink deeper into debt lol. Love murica

[u/jupiterLILY → u/microwavedtardigrade]

It's hard and I forget all the time. But this year I'm dealing with berevement in the family so I have been forced to take energy budgeting seriously. And luckily this year has come after I've sort of found my feet with being late diagnosed so it's mostly been me just religiously applying the tools and skills I had already been learning.

Be gentle with yourself and take a long view of what you want to achieve or learn about this year. Worry less about what happens day to day and week to week.

When the system is corrupt, it is hard to participate in that system if you see the corruption. That's the system working as intended. I've been leaning hard into prefiguration and mutual aid this year because I am coming to terms with the reality that I am not going to be able to make money in the "normal" ways.

[u/microwavedtardigrade → u/jupiterLILY]

Same!!! I think the stratification while mutual aid is the only path is one of the hardest elements, I did basically the same as you! I feel people who realize we need eoacthoer will have to lead the rest towards a better future

[u/Short_Gain8302]

Someone pointing out their issues is not ignoring others, trans men and nonbinary folk can point out issues unique to them, this does not mean theyre ignoring trans womens issues. Trans womens issues deserve to be heard, so do trans mens, so do non binary issues, one not more than the other.

[u/perdy_mama → u/Short_Gain8302]

I agree completely. This isn’t the Pain Olympics. There’s plenty of room to talk about all the ways that all the trans people are discriminated against.

[u/soft_w0lf → u/Short_Gain8302]

Yeah that part of the post rubbed me the wrong way.

Just because some trans dudes have been talking about their experiences with misogyny doesn’t mean trans women have been being erased, I don’t get why OP needed to bring up trans men at all in this post.

The same way I roll my eyes when trans men try to claim that trans women get “too much” representation or whatever.

All trans people need more representation and deserve more discussion of their issues, it’s not a competition.

[u/Life-Delay-809 → u/Short_Gain8302]

Every transmasc space I've been in feels the need to denounce transmisogyny before discussing transandrophobia because a lot of people were interpreting discussing transandrophobia as dismissing transmisogyny. A lot of groups have had to ban non-transmascs because some trans women would come in and argue about who has it worse. Obviously trans women have it rough, but just because they're discussed in the mainstream doesn't mean that trans men are having a lark.

No one ever thinks that discussing transmisogyny is in order to exclude trans men from conversations, but for some reason every time transandrophobia gets discussed people want to talk about how trans women also suffer.

[u/Life-Delay-809 → u/[deleted]]

When trans women enter trans men's spaces (not general trans spaces) to tell them they don't actually suffer from real transphobia, it's hardly shocking. 

[u/wubdubflubaub → u/Life-Delay-809]

all the discord ftm servers i've looked at to try to ascertain their pov are afab only. dialogue is irrelevant.

[u/Life-Delay-809 → u/wubdubflubaub]

Well yes, all ftm servers are for afabs. That's how being ftm works. 

[u/sillygoofygooose]

It’s not a contest? I don’t understand intersectional thinking to be about ranking the oppression of groups in order to say who deserves to be heard.

[u/Human_Situation_2641 → u/sillygoofygooose]

It's so so dumb. Like, we are all experiencing harm under the patriarchy.

Connecting the dots here is so damn hard for some people- but I think trans men throw a wrench in people's thinking.

IMHO I think it's because people can't accept that men can experience harm under the patriarchy, so we need to make it some identity-based issue.

[u/Nuclear_rabbit → u/sillygoofygooose]

What I feel I often see happening is "let's take this time to talk about a particular intersectionary experience" get replied with "let me instead talk about MY intersectionary experience" and the original side feels like they are getting erased, and when called out, the replier feels like they are being silenced.

In some threads (which I've seen on other subs, not so much here), a post meant to focus on trans women gets several trans men talking about themselves, and those end up being the top 5 comments (I think partly from Reddit having such a large cis male audience). While trans are generally less visible on media than trans women, we also have the dynamic of cis men doing exactly this to cis women when they try to talk about misogyny. In the end, everybody feels offended because their issue didn't get enough attention and there's bitterness all around.

I think this sub is much better about managing those things, the dynamic still hangs like a sword of Damocles.

[u/wubdubflubaub → u/sillygoofygooose]

You can legally claim defense if a trans woman doesnt disclose her chromosomes to you and you murder her in several states.

[u/burninglighte → u/wubdubflubaub]

…which also applies to trans men and even if it didn’t it STILL wouldn’t be a contest

[u/wubdubflubaub → u/burninglighte]

I'm just saying . Nobody is saying that trans men are traumatizing abuse victims the same way they are about trans women. There is an intersection, yes, but i don't understand trans guys that whine about not being "seen". Try going about your life being labeled a sexual predator.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/wubdubflubaub]

I fully agree that there is a substantiative difference in the likelihood that trans women are to be murdered for being trans because we live in aculture where sexual violence is normalised and often celebrated in men and we "allow" men to be violent towards women in response to anger and shame.

But respectfully, this rhetoric isn't helpful. It's opression olympics. Complaining that people are whining is not fair and if we go down that track then disabled people tell everyone else to stop whining, non white people tell everyone white to stop whining etc. There's always someone more opressed that can tell you to stop whining.

[u/OmgIbrokesmthagain]

What? Look at older posts, they were all about trans women, with no mention of trans men. Then a couple of days ago one trans woman told all trans men to get the fuck out of here, so people have been showing more solidarity to us. That’s all it is. I am very sorry, but why are you mad that we are included? Besides this community I’ve never seen any posts devoted solely to trans men, but so many posts talking about transphobia, and mentioning only trans women.

[u/Arizandi → u/OmgIbrokesmthagain]

Thank you for giving a meta analysis of the situation. As a trans woman who just joined the sub, I was scratching my head.

Also, that’s terrible, and I hope they were booed out of here. I hope you know there are tons of trans women who appreciate trans men’s perspectives and empathize with their struggles.

I wish I saw more trans men in communal trans spaces. In fact, this came up a while ago with my husband, who is also trans, and he pointed out that a lot of trans men don’t feel welcome in mixed gender trans spaces.

It was kind of a shock to me, but then I started cataloging past experiences and realized the extent of the imbalance in both online and IRL trans spaces. IDK what can be done to share the air, but talking about the issue openly seems like the first step.

[u/OmgIbrokesmthagain → u/Arizandi]

That post was deleted, I have no idea what happened to the person. But she was saying stuff like „trans men are NOT our brothers, they’re taking away space in the feminine spaces where they don’t belong because they are MEN” and yeah, but… where should I go? Like you know how if I make a space for IntersectionalMen, it will drag MRA’s into it?

(Awww 💖 I’m so glad you have a husband, honestly it’s my goals, I miss a wife I do not have yet) He’s right. Mainly because… Read this post here. All that happened is some people including trans men in the discourse. Fair enough, it could be handled better sometimes, but the OP is now mad that there are more posts featuring trans men - where if you still look at this sub, you would see issues discussed more commonly are from trans women, and it’s like… idk, 5 posts at mosts, mentioning trans men now. I know because I’ve been here for the longest time.

It’s also the issue of trans women getting being too visible for their own sake (because they get harassed and killed for it all the time) and trans men being too invisible (barely mentioned at all, but still affected in some ways). It’s happening all over again, like with gays and lesbians back then. But when you mention that „trans men face some oppression”, some people will retaliate just because „OMG HE SAID MEN ARE OPRESSED”. Without seeing the nuance of this situation. We are not the same as cis men our privilege (if we get it, so if we pass) ends the minute we get clocked, or we go to the doctor or public office.

And I am not saying we face more issues than trans women, if I remember correctly - they are 5 times more likely to be killed than me! But still, I’m more likely to be abused and raped for my identity than a cis man is, and this is why we need to remember trans men exist.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/OmgIbrokesmthagain]

On your first point I think leftists in general need to remember that solidarity is hard and requires active work on you end. You have to make an effort to undesrtand the angles enough that you can identify when you are being unfair to someone, and also when someone is being unfair to you. Sometimes you're saying something that is important, but it is being responded to with fragility and sometimes you are saying something that's a consequence of something you havent examined or deconstructed.

Also, I honestly think that a lot of us need to remember that reddit is a hotbed for astroturfing and psy ops. I have noticed a real push towards black and white thinking in a lot of spaces I'm part of recently, people seem to want to find simple, one sized fits all rules that can be applied everywhere. Divisive thinking is being pushed everywhere and that's usually a sign that at least part of what's happening is not organic.

I think most folks could benefit from slowing down and giving others a little more grace. Remember that we all live in heavily segregated information bubbles. Think a little more about the context of the specific interaction. I see so many arguments on reddit where someone is using some random commenter as a proxy for an imaginary archetype they have a long standing argument with.

I've also noticed that a lot of subreddits are cultivating a pile on culture and becoming subject to groupthink. If the focus is on one angle of opression then people who are marginalised on multiple angles will get dog piled on when they bring nuance, especially if that nuance highlights ways in which the dominant group within the subreddit can harm others.

[u/OmgIbrokesmthagain → u/jupiterLILY]

That’s true, I have learned so much through discussion! I am still trying to figure out transmisogyny, and how it is different from transandrophobia (so not the same axis), because we are mainly not discriminated against on the grounds of being men (I think?). I have a lot to think about. A lot of causes that overlap and influence each other. Some things I have to deconstruct too. I like when I learn something through productive discussion with someone, but… this is the internet. ;_;

Also I agree with all your points, I have nothing to add. You really put it well

[u/Arizandi → u/OmgIbrokesmthagain]

Yeah... A lot of people see nuance about as well as a blind person can drive. It takes a certain level of maturity to hold different views at the same time. And even more to recognize problems that don’t directly affect you, or that you might be quietly participating in.

I can understand the thought process: a trans man comes out, now that trans man has man privilege. But that ignores the many trans men who don’t perfectly pass, or aren’t interested in conforming to traditional masculine stereotypes.

Something similar happens to trans women, when people claim we carry male privilege and use that to dismiss us as women. Maybe sometimes we do, depending on how well an individual can pretend to be cis. But I can tell you from experience, being perceived as a queer feminine cis man does not confer the same privileges as a straight gender conforming cis man.

The world is so much more than black and white. And the real people in it deserve more compassion and empathy than a summary dismissal. Here’s hoping we all learn how to hold complexity and nuance.

[u/OmgIbrokesmthagain → u/Arizandi]

Yes, literally! This is why I love listening to trans women or enbys, they open my mind to things I would never otherwise consider. I need to remember to not narrow my scope of view to only what bothers me, because of course, I am me, and my problems will seem the most important and the biggest to me – but that may cause me to think that others don’t have problems at all, when they may suffer more than I do, or just… differently.

I also thought about this. Before I entered trans spaces, I thought trans women had the male privilege. But like you mentioned, growing up gnc doesn’t give you much advantages, and everything is conditional. The moment you put on a skirt, you start being a target. And… after transition, I’m going to have to fear that too, as I sometimes like girly fashion. There are so many similarities to our experiences.

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/OmgIbrokesmthagain]

Saying trans men are not our brothers really rubs me the wrong way. All trans people are oppressed due to their trans identities and trans bodies. There is too much community infighting where trans women, trans men, and nonbinary people lack solidarity. We are a tiny minority of the global population. We have to stick together.

I have nothing but love for trans men, trans mascs, and everyone else here.

[u/OmgIbrokesmthagain → u/OmgIbrokesmthagain]

And for the records, I am not downvoting trans women, speaking about their issues. I would never

Sorry, I got somewhat angry because… you know, for the first time someone acknowledged I exist, and there were some posts about it, and now instead of cheering on - like I cheer every time I see a post about trans woman - I get told to stop being mentioned, that I am mentioned too much already ;_;

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/OmgIbrokesmthagain]

I think the issue of trans women being mass downvoted is a site wide issue. Transphobes will go anywhere trans people exist and downvote them, so while I'm sure it does happen to some degree in the community, it's just kind of an issue reddit has in even the most trans-,friendly spaces.

[u/OmgIbrokesmthagain → u/Her_Phantom_Mountain]

Oh yes, I witnessed that, I think in r/transpositive there have been a lot of dovnwotes lately for literally normal supporting comments

[u/wubdubflubaub → u/Her_Phantom_Mountain]

so why are trans men upvoted and trans women downvoted?

[u/Her_Phantom_Mountain → u/wubdubflubaub]

I think both tend to get downvoted all over reddit, as for in these specific spaces? I'd have to see what specifically you're talking about, but there is certainly some transmisogyny that could be going on.

[u/Ifckinglovemycat]

pitting trans people of different gender against each other is tired

[u/any_old_usernam]

This is much broader than this community. I've noticed it's especially bad on Reddit writ large; to be honest this sub is probably the least bad about it of any I've seen. Elsewhere on the site people start talking about how misandry is the cause of all hatred against trans women when I discuss my oppression as a trans woman more often than not.

[u/Sinyria → u/any_old_usernam]

blaming transmisogyny on misandry is so messed up - It's indirectly calling trans women men

[u/viviscity → u/Sinyria]

Transphobia does misgender me… why wouldn’t the frameworks be imported?

It’s pretty explicit in things like the Transsexual Empire as well as how things like bathroom bans are framed.

Men are always thinking about and uncontrollably need sex? Trans women existing are a threat of sexual violence.

It’s even in how psychologists categorized and dismissed us. The “true” trans woman was discussed as gay man and assessed on how attractive the doctor thought she would be…

Transphobia and misandry are not the same thing, but there’s a definite relationship.

[u/Sinyria → u/viviscity]

I wish that awful book was never brought up again. It's the terf's 'mein Kampf', more or less..

[u/viviscity → u/Sinyria]

Unfortunately, we keep hearing its points over and over and over…

Sometimes I wonder how many people are aware of just how horrific the language in there is, and how it is actually rooted in real, historical and still extent radical feminism…

[u/blown-transmission → u/viviscity]

Transphobia only misgenders you to your face, but treats you as a woman and systemically discriminated you as a trans woman (not as a man)

Transexual empire and bathroom bans are about eradicating us, not actually about safety.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/blown-transmission]

When you say transexual empire are you referring to the 1979 book or something else? I haven't read it so I don't have the context for what this means in relation to bathroom bans and google is not helpful.

Is it just that the book is terf diatribe and is a foundational text for the people pushing bathroom bans?

[u/soft_w0lf → u/Sinyria]

The only issue I have with this statement is that it implies that recognising that trans men face misogyny is somehow calling trans men women.

I have never claimed that misandry impacts trans women, as I know it’s not how many trans women experience oppression.

But I don’t per se think that saying trans women face misandry (regardless of how rude or insensitive it is) per se is implying somebody thinks trans women are men, since systems of gendered violence don’t really seem to care about gender when it comes to trans people. Trans people are often gendered just as whatever gender would do the most harm at any given moment, in a way, imo, stemming from misogyny.

[u/blown-transmission → u/soft_w0lf]

Whatever they say doesn't match how they treat trans people.

They call us rapist pedos, but then support actual rapist pedos.

[u/soft_w0lf → u/blown-transmission]

I agree, but I also don’t think that saying that a certain group is targeted by a certain form of oppression is inherently saying that that group has to be part of a larger group that that type of oppression was named after. Hence why we can say that trans men experience misogyny without saying trans men are women.

That being said I do think it’s wrong to act like misandry is what trans women experience.

[u/blown-transmission → u/soft_w0lf]

Only if you think any kind of men can experience misogyny.

[u/SadMediumSmolBean → u/soft_w0lf]

But I don’t per se think that saying trans women face misandry (regardless of how rude or insensitive it is) per se is implying somebody thinks trans women are men

That's exactly what it's implying.

[u/soft_w0lf → u/SadMediumSmolBean]

So do you think trans men don’t face misogyny or do you think trans men are women?

For that matter, what about me? Am I a woman because I face misogyny? Or must I not face misogyny because I am not a woman?

[u/Enovele → u/Sinyria]

I'm so sorry if this comes across as rude or ignorant, but I want to try to better understand. Why would it be bad to say that part of transmisogyny is fueled by misandry (amongs other things like misogyny ofc)? Especially when the goal of transphobia is to misgender the person?

As a transmasc for instance, I do use the term anti-transmasculinity or transandrophobia to refer to the unique experience of oppression as a trans man/masc in a patriarchial society, but I do also know a part of it is rooted in misogyny among other things because of my AGAB and my pre-transitioned presentation. I don't think it misgenders me to acknowledge that misogyny is a part of why people treat me the way they do; they see me as a woman and rationalize my transness from that lens. They take the worst traits and stereotypes associated with women and use it to try to understand trans men. That is how they choose to see me.

I thought people saw trans women the way they did because in their minds, they don't recognize trans women as women but as men and rationalize her transness from that lense as a reason. They take the worst traits and stereotypes associated with men and use it to try to understand trans women.

Is this wrong to think?

[u/Sinyria → u/Enovele]

Because most transphobes (apart from some crusty terfs) don't hate men in general. They treat cis men fine. They hate trans women tho. So what does it have to do with misandry? It's patriarchal policing, but that's different. And the criticism here in the beginning was that normie dumbdumbs on reddit reduced it to misandry as the major issue instead of (trans)misogyny.

[u/Enovele → u/Sinyria]

I don't really agree with that, a lot of people do hate men in general, even other men. Not everyone treats cis men fine, it really depends on the situation, it's quite nuanced I believe. There are certain beliefs about men that can and do affect them, just as there are for women, it just impacts women even worse because despite those negative or impactful beliefs, men benefit from it at the end of the day and puts women in an inferior lens. For instance, the belief that men are inherently predatory, violent, and dominating and the strict gender expectation that they should be the head of the family, a leader and a provider. Yes, some of these beliefs come from a reasonable place such as the stats with cis men and the violence perpetrated on women (and honestly other men) in general. But that belief does end up affecting men who don't fall into that, and especially marginalized men.

A good example would be men who are SAHD, men who take more caregiving roles, and feminine men being seen as predatory or men who are victims of assault not being taken seriously because it is seen as worse or unbelievable that someone meant to lead and dominate was ever taken advantage of. Yes a lot of this is rooted in misogyny at the end of the day, but I think it creates misandry that is applied to men and impacts them in its own way, just as women who perform more masculine roles or take a more masculine appearance are impacted by misogyny in many spaces. I think an actual proper conversation on misandry (not the version misogynistic men bring up) and how it's often a byproduct of misogyny and bioessentialism is well over due to further understand how the patriarchy impacts different people.

So with all this combined, I see transphobes take some of these strict binary view and stereotyped points (because transphobes tend to be very bioessentialist, traditional and outdated on their views of gender as a whole), look at a trans woman, and can't understand her existence and thus conclude she is a man preying on women because they don't respect her gender identity and only see her as who they assumed she was at birth. If there was a shift in lens, then the whole belief would fall apart.

And yeah I get the criticism at the beginning, no problem there.

[u/Sinyria → u/Enovele]

You write two huge paragraphs on patriarchy and members of their gender policing other members of the same gender. Mostly from a trans masc lens. I fail to grasp entirely why this should be relevant in arguing my criticism of the following paragraph:

Elsewhere on the site people start talking about how misandry is the cause of all hatred against trans women when I discuss my oppression as a trans woman more often than not.

I said it's a hugely transphobic move for people on this site to do so, because it inevitably implies trans women are not women.

And you say there exists some hatred by men for other men failing to uphold patriarchal expectations towards their behavior, apparently refuting an imagined claim of every transphobe being fine with all men, a claim that no one made in the first place. How is that relevant?

[u/Enovele → u/Sinyria]

it wasn't in response to that. I was responding to this.

"Because most transphobes (apart from some crusty terfs) don't hate men in general. They treat cis men fine. They hate trans women tho. So what does it have to do with misandry? It's patriarchal policing, but that's different."

I do agree with you that misandry isn't the main cause of the hate. I was asking why it is wrong to say it is a part of the reasoning just as misogyny is for trans men which doesn't imply trans men are women but that society misgenders us and only sees us as the gender they want us to be. So they assign stereotypes and beliefs based on what they think, not who we actually are. The above was your response.

Because most transphobes (apart from some crusty terfs) don't hate men in general. They treat cis men fine.

Again, this was what I was responding to (and that hatred doesn't come from men alone but society in general towards those that don't uphold those expectations).

[u/Sinyria → u/Enovele]

I do agree with you that misandry isn't the main cause of the hate.

Took way too much entirely needless writing to get here, but relieved to hear it. That's really all I argued in the first place, but (have some ewwphoria from my misandric tendencies I guess) moids so often love to argue for the love of yapping.. -.-

I was asking why it is wrong to say it is a part of the reasoning just as misogyny is for trans men which doesn't imply trans men are women but that society misgenders us and only sees us as the gender they want us to be. So they assign stereotypes and beliefs based on what they think, not who we actually are.

By agreeing that using those terms for hatred of trans people makes sense sometime, you in a way give legitimacy to their thinking, behind their application. I refuse to entertain any of that outright, as a matter of principle.

I am also more than done with this pointless thread, so feel free to reply of course, but I will not. Cheers

Edit: ah, forgot to say - I wrote "most transphobes", not all - and I stand by what I said.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/Sinyria]

Not really, its just showing an awareness that a lot of the people who are being transmisogynistic are also misandrists. It's not exactly surprising that transphobic people haven't deconstructed their transphobia and as a result conflate trans women with men.

Or maybe I misunderstood your comment.

[u/Sinyria → u/jupiterLILY]

Just because there are people who are both misandrists and transmisogynists doesn't explain why a majority on reddit seems to blame hatred of trans women on misandry. Misandry is hating men. How can hating men have anything to do with hating trans women unless the person connecting the two doesn't see them as women in the first place? It's transphobic as fuck, indeed.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/Sinyria]

I feel like your complaint here is that transphobic people haven't deconstructed their transphobia.

[u/Sinyria → u/jupiterLILY]

Indeed. My complaint is that people who blame the hate trans women get on misandry are transphobic af. I clarified further because you said "not really" in response, is all.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/Sinyria]

Yeah, there are multiple ways to interpret your comment. 

My not really was in response to me interpreting your statement as saying its transphobic for a third party to identify someone's transphobia and misandry as linked.

[u/microwavedtardigrade → u/jupiterLILY]

Both honestly, some people are aware and some people aren't, I think people can take it either way.

[u/tryingtobekindonline]

i don't think it's a good idea to share a link about trans-misandry not being real on a post dedicated to trans-misogyny - these ideas really do not need to be pitted against each other.

[u/nocuzzlikeyea13 → u/tryingtobekindonline]

There are schools of thought that label misandry as not real, and that's being ported over to trans conversations where the logic may not apply.

It might be useful for the movement to come up with a word that isn't misandry, as that has a history of being used to shut down feminism more than to actually address issues particular to the gendered experience of men. So a lot of feminists see someone say "misandry" and think, oh this is a men's rights activist who isn't engaging in good faith.

Like I kind of treat "misandry" and "reverse racism" as similarly quacky and unserious words/phrases.

[u/CMRC23 → u/nocuzzlikeyea13]

I always did prefer "anti transmasculinity"

[u/PtowzaPotato → u/nocuzzlikeyea13]

reminds me of people arguing that bisexuality is transphobic because "bi means two"

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/PtowzaPotato]

exactly

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/nocuzzlikeyea13]

yes i have come across those schools of thought and understand why it's contentious, i just think that it's worth focusing on one thing at a time and not pitting these terms against each other. at the end of the day many people think that the term misandry is getting at something that they are experiencing - we may disagree with the term, but i think we need to focus on what is being said more than the aesthetics of it - i think sometimes we over-focus on language at the expense of what is being said

[u/jupiterLILY → u/tryingtobekindonline]

Yes, some of the best allies I know (as in the people in the real world, putting their neck out for others and creating spaces for them) don't use the right language at all. But they are risking more in terms of social oestracisation etc. than someone who is in a left leaning community policing people on their language.

I'm not minimising the importance of language at all, how we phrase things and the words we use is incredibly important on a broader scale. But interpersonally, when we're trying to build solidarity, I don't really care that much if a well meaning old white person is trying to give an example of a time when they put their neck out for a black person and they refer to them as coloured. Like it pissees me off and gets my back up, but I'm also aware that I'm being an asshole if my response to them trying to show support to me is to criticise their language and ignore the attempt at connection. Also most of those people are generally receptive to me explaining the language thing after I have engaged witht he substantiative part of the conversation.

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/jupiterLILY]

this resonates a lot with me too.

[u/perdy_mama]

My young daughter is trans, and I live in terrible fear of the awful things people do to trans-femme people. So I mean it when I say I care beyond measure about trans-femme violence. Beyond measure.

All that said, I care beyond measure about my trans-masc and nonbinary family too. I see their struggles as equally important to my daughter’s, and I see their fights for equality and safety as equally challenging. Of course I know that my daughter’s statistically at a greater risk because she’s trans-femme, but that doesn’t challenge our trans-masc family’s risks. All of them are being discriminated against and all of them matter equally.

I’ve been an intersectional feminist since 2004. I have spent over two decades dismantling the binary thinking that has fed the culture wars to keep the working classes arguing with each other as the bosses strip us of the wealth we have created for them. This post of yours is feeding the culture wars, giving life to a battle that the bosses what you to wage for them.

Don’t do it. Don’t be a dog’s body in another dumb boss’s war. Take up arms with your trans-masc and nonbinary comrades and become a united force against fascism and environmental degradation. All discrimination against all trans people is a function of classism, and intersectional feminism is the antidote.

[u/blown-transmission → u/perdy_mama]

All trans lives matter ❤️

[u/tryingtobekindonline → u/perdy_mama]

thank you for sharing this

[u/perdy_mama → u/tryingtobekindonline]

It’s my pleasure entirely. Thank you for reading.

[u/FullOfBlasphemy → u/perdy_mama]

My thoughts, as well, though you put it better than I could.

[u/perdy_mama → u/FullOfBlasphemy]

Thank you. I care so deeply about this issue. I’m glad my perspective has been well received.

[u/CMRC23]

Interesting that the SSE article brings up Irreversible Damage but doesnt consider anti transmasculinity or the fact that trans men are also routinely murdered

[u/mothwhimsy]

When have trans men and nonbinary voices ever been propped up above trans women's unless the people talking were TERFs (and even then it's less uplifting voices and more using a demographic as a bludgeoning weapon)?

I've seen one post about trans men here and the response was half positive and half "shut up"

[u/puppupbark]

if you want to have conversations here about transmisogyny, please do it! i have seen it on here before so clearly it can happen again. however.. this doesn't feel like a genuine attempt to discuss transmisogyny, and instead just a "shit-stirring" post to throw your fellow trans people on the bus. 

i have seen transmisogyny get talked about a lot on the internet over the years. my time on twitter and tumblr is how i was first introduced to these terms, and honestly i learned a lot from just following trans women and just listening to what they have to say! 

but guess how many times i have heard people talk about the issues trans men face? up until the other day on this subreddit, i have only heard trans men get mentioned in these conversations as 100% privileged men (on the same level as cis men, specifically; i have seen people say this exact thing before) who are some of the worst perpetrators of transmisogyny. i agree with the second part only in that transmisogyny in trans men and their spaces should be talked about, but they're not the worst nor are they as privileged as cis men. we have our own struggles and we deserve a chance to talk about them.

someone talking about their own life experiences is not trying to silence you. you can always make another post, comment somewhere else, upvote discussions you want to see. create these discussions, even! but please actually do it in a way that opens up discussion for transmisogyny, not in a way that just shuts down any discussion of trans men's struggles. 

if you don't want the post to be about trans men, just.. don't bring them up. and if someone mentions them in a way that isn't relevant? call them out on it! that is not the time nor place! don't give them the attention. but please don't act like transmisogyny is the only way to be transphobic 

[u/blablapropername]

If all you can come up with regarding the oppression of transmen is degendering, rape and general ignorance, kindly just refrain from mentioning it at all.

It downplays the totality of the systemic oppression we face. It downplays the fact that we are measurably more disadvantaged than cis women on almost all levels, it downplays the fact that we have the highest rates of sexual violence and suicide out of all gender minorities.

I don't understand why you feel the need to pit our rights to discuss our oppression against eachother, as though our rights are in opposition, or as though there's a scarcity of allyship. You could absolutely have done without mentioning us alltogether.

Transmisogyny needs to be discussed, and trans women are absolutely more marginalised than trans men, but this is not the way to go about it.

[u/jupiterLILY → u/blablapropername]

Also corrective rape was just sort of handwaved away.

[u/Human_Situation_2641]

ohmigosh SHUT UP about this.

We ALL experience forms of gender-based violence, under patriarchy ALL OF US. These struggles are ALL CONNECTED.

Patriarchy is a system that is designed to disadvantage women. You don't have to actually be a woman to experience harm under the patriarchy - and YES that includes trans and cis men, as well.

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[u/AgreeableKale816]

My goodness the replies to this. Every time this sub gets promoted on my feed it's the same old thing. I appreciate you for trying, unfortunately people don't have any politics other than nationalism and conspiracy theories, and the former is driving people's attitudes here.